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The highest paid role player in NHL history

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Old
03-15-2010, 11:14 PM
  #76
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR303 View Post
For the love of God, please let this be the last time this is discussed, and just appreciate the fact that we're in a playoff hunt, (slightly) ahead of the Wings and most assuredly will finish ahead of the Jackets again (a team that's had MUCH better drafting position, by the way) even though everyone thought we'd be in the back of the pack.
That's the spirit. Y'all don't know *real* hardship until you've had six years of Doug MacLean running your team into the ground - from the ground floor.

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03-15-2010, 11:30 PM
  #77
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I get excited whenever I see Visqi posts around here and I'm never disappointed.

Legwand is not the highest paid role player in NHL history.

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03-15-2010, 11:32 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Honestly, I think it'd been very interesting if Legwand had gone elsewhere-- and we could settle this debate once and for all.

Sure, it's easier to look in retrospect. But, that's where the good and bad are separated. In retrospect, many of Poile's moves the last few years are not looking great (lewgand 4.5, dumont 4.0, forseberg, witt). In retrospect, Phx has made some great moves the last couple of years (Bryz on waviers, Upshall for a fighter, Vrbata for a bag of pucks, etc), which has put them in a good position this year, and going forward. I also admire that they had the b*** to say Peter Mueller isn't working out the way we anticipated, we're going to make a change, and get some value for him.
if you're gonna give Poile crap for Witt(deserved) and Forsberg(not really that bad in retrospect, since we recouped the 1st rounder and Parent isnt panning out, and Upshall is still fragile as heck) Dumont(to be determined, and offset somewhat by the great value we got for him the first two years) and Legwand(obviously debatable) then you should at least give him credit for Ward, Ellis, Goc, and Buillon(all obtained for nothing whatsoever), not to mention Rinne(8th rd) and Hornqvist(6th rd)

I also think its way too early to say if phoenix has built a permanent contender or if this is a one year flash in the pan.


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Old
03-15-2010, 11:34 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by joshin29 View Post
The role that is most effective is not on the PP, and I feel like the coaching staff feels as though he should be on the PP because he is the HIGHEST PAID player on the team.
Im sorry but if Trotz will play Ellis immediately after signing Rinne to a big contract then obviously they dont use salary in determining who they feel like they have to play

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03-15-2010, 11:44 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
if you're gonna give Poile crap for Witt(deserved) and Forsberg(not really that bad in retrospect, since we recouped the 1st rounder and Parent isnt panning out, and Upshall is still fragile as heck) Dumont(to be determined, and offset somewhat by the great value we got for him the first two years) and Legwand(obviously debatable) then you should at least give him credit for Ward, Ellis, and Buillon(all obtained for nothing whatsoever), not to mention Rinne(8th rd) and Hornqvist(6th rd)

I also think its way too early to say if phoenix has built a permanent contender or if this is a one year flash in the pan.
I would say Ward and Boillion were decent. By his own admission, he didn't expect Ward to make the NHL. It was kinda of "look what I found" situation. I think Trotz does a great job of turning role players into a something more, and some of that is out of default, because we have big holes in our lineup.

Drafting is a hard area to give credit and blame. Poile makes the final call, but the person who deserves most of the credit a guy like Hornquist is our Swedish scout.

A GM usually has most influence on the 1st rd pick. Those are players that our heavily scouted, at times by the GMs themselves. Overall, our 1st round record has been about average IMO.

Too see all my thoughts on Poile, see the latest thread. I got it out of my system

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03-16-2010, 07:59 AM
  #81
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I'm offended with Legwand's lack of offense this year. Its very hard to knock the guy when he's playing with Smithson however, as that guy ruins any chance of offense. I'd love to see him back to a two-way game instead of a one-way defensive game. He think he is being misused a little bit.

However, you cannot knock his line's defensive ability. He is by far one our best defensive forwards and he's done well with it this year.

In his solid two-way play form, he is not overpaid; it was this form in which he was signed. This season, he has been given a bit of a different role; it is this form that is overpaid.

My problem with this thread, is the use of the term role player. If Legwand is a role player, then everyone else is on the team. Maybe I'm missing something here, but usually role player refers to a veteran who plays limited minutes who provides leadership. Or a 4th line grinder who creates a little energy in his two minutes on the ice. I don't think I've ever heard the term "role player" refer to a shutdown player who matches up against other team's top lines.

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03-16-2010, 08:12 AM
  #82
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This is the song that doesn't end it just goes on and on my friend some people started singing it not knowing what it was and they'll just keep on singing it forever just because this is the song that doesn't end....

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Old
03-16-2010, 08:47 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by quartermaster29 View Post
This is the song that doesn't end it just goes on and on my friend some people started singing it not knowing what it was and they'll just keep on singing it forever just because this is the song that doesn't end....
grrrr!

now that song (fully in Lambchop voice, too) is going to be in my head all dang day

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03-16-2010, 09:14 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
grrrr!

now that song (fully in Lambchop voice, too) is going to be in my head all dang day
You are in good company then. I hear this song evertime this topic comes up.

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Old
03-16-2010, 07:27 PM
  #85
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Sorry to be highjacking the thread guys but I asked Viqsi to hang around here because frankly I'm having one of the worst crisises of my life. She is logical, mean to moronic Canadians, and a fan of Suter. Other than she's a CBJ fan, she bring something most needed in HF and other boards, the ability to think before posting.

Thank you Vix, I owe you.

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03-17-2010, 07:35 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
Sorry to be highjacking the thread guys but I asked Viqsi to hang around here because frankly I'm having one of the worst crisises of my life. She is logical, mean to moronic Canadians, and a fan of Suter. Other than she's a CBJ fan, she bring something most needed in HF and other boards, the ability to think before posting.

Thank you Vix, I owe you.
I am not sure if I am a good sampling, but I have no problem with anyone from any team hanging around if they provide the kind of conversation Viqsi brings. She's awesome, IMO, and I've enjoyed reading her posts.

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03-17-2010, 09:31 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
"Jesus- We've heard this all before-- but I'm still going to chime in with my opinion. And it's the best opinion! End of discussion!"
Sorry, can't post on game days, you know, rituals and all.

Anyway, I think you missed my point. Regardless of what opinions any of us have for/about Legwand, he's doing what he's asked. I didn't comment on return on $, nor did I give my opinion on whether he's doing what I think he should be doing. I mentioned that he is doing what his coach (quite honestly the only one that matters) is asking him to do.

The main thing I really want him to do at this point, is stop passing the puck to Jerrod Smithson on odd-man rushes. Shoot the damn puck, because for whatever reason, Smithson seems to be able to handle a rebound, a pass, not so much.

But yeah, I probably should have just stayed away. Vodka and tequila with orange juice seems to impare my virtual judgement.

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Old
03-17-2010, 09:38 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
That's the spirit. Y'all don't know *real* hardship until you've had six years of Doug MacLean running your team into the ground - from the ground floor.
Yeah, that had to be a really difficult stretch. I watched Columbus a lot and every time I saw them, and their line-up, never could figure out why they weren't a very good team. I know goaltending has been suspect, but still don't quite get it.

Viqsi, I gotta admit, I despise the Jackets. Can't really put my finger on it, but that's just the way it is. Do you realize how difficult it is to read your posts, and every single time agree with them. You're a Jackets fan, for God's sake, and I can't help but appreciate, much less agree with virtually every thing you type. Makes me feel dirty.

All kidding aside, all of your posts that I have seen are spot-on and pretty level-headed. Wish there was more of that around, from fans of every team in the league, including mine.

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Old
03-17-2010, 10:04 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
Sorry to be highjacking the thread guys but I asked Viqsi to hang around here because frankly I'm having one of the worst crisises of my life. She is logical, mean to moronic Canadians, and a fan of Suter. Other than she's a CBJ fan, she bring something most needed in HF and other boards, the ability to think before posting.

Thank you Vix, I owe you.
I think before posting? Damn, I have abilities I didn't even know I had.

Notaprob, by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR303 View Post
Viqsi, I gotta admit, I despise the Jackets. Can't really put my finger on it, but that's just the way it is. Do you realize how difficult it is to read your posts, and every single time agree with them. You're a Jackets fan, for God's sake, and I can't help but appreciate, much less agree with virtually every thing you type. Makes me feel dirty.
I had a similar conflicting relationship with the Preds until I realized that it's better to think about the things that bring us together, rather than the things that separate us.

For example, I'm sure we can *all* agree on F### DETROIT.

(thanks, btw. )

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03-17-2010, 12:13 PM
  #90
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Simple answer to a simple question, is Legwand the most overpaid role player in the NHL?

OF COURSE NOT!

Drury, Horcoff, et al, there is no way that Legwand can be seen as the most overpaid.

Is he overpaid period?

Maybe slightly, no one has refuted Webersmashpuck's post about comparative salaries, his pay is roughly par for course. It's not just his production that is factored into salary decisions, but age and intangibles. For a player in the prime years of his life, who can be a solid shutdown player but can be moved up to an offensive role if need-be, this is really a fair price to be paid IMO. And I do agree that the players you play with is a factor to be considered, a good player should elevate the play of his linemates, yes, but let's not expect miracles (no disrespect to Smithson & Ward).

I'm just amazed (and if I were a Nashville fan, I would be grateful) that Legwand isn't throwing a temper tantrum about his talent being "spoiled" by playing that role on that line, on other teams, players who are moved to a checking line often whine, b*tch and moan that they're not being utilized properly. For example, when Matt Cooke was in Vancouver every year would begin with a quote from him about how he was a scorer in junior and he was being wasted as a checking pest, but if only given the chance, he'd be God's gift to offense. Legwand seems like a team guy, and for that I'd pay a premium.

And I personally am a fan of Poile's, every GM makes mistakes but Poile's built a solid team with astute drafting, development, trades and pick-ups overall, all you guys are missing from becoming an elite contender is about $5-7 million in salary budget, which isn't Poile's fault. If you had that budget room, I think you'd add the missing piece(s) and be an elite contender. Just be grateful that some teams (ahem) spend $10 million more than you only to get a few spots ahead in the standings.


Last edited by MarkMM: 03-17-2010 at 01:57 PM.
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03-17-2010, 12:14 PM
  #91
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Oh, and for most overpaid in HISTORY, can anyone beat Bobby Holik? ANYONE?!

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03-17-2010, 02:02 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by MarkMM View Post
no one has refuted Webersmashpuck's post about comparative salaries
He pulled some of the most overpaid players in the league as comps (Handzus, Lucic). Still, a guy like Handzuz, though overpaid, is still doing more than Legwand, at a slightly less salary.

Here are more comps for you-- Brendan Morrison (1.5), John Madden (2.7), Jamie Langenbrunner (2.9), Marco Sturm (3.3), Vermette (3.3), Pavelski (1.7), Morrow (4.1), Cleary (2.8), Prospal (1.1) and Macel Goc (.7). There won't be the perfect comp, but you get the idea.

Again, I don't think he's the most overpaid role player in the league, but there is little doubt in my mind that he's overpaid. I think he'd get around 2-3 million on the open market, 3 years or so.


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03-17-2010, 03:53 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
He pulled some of the most overpaid players in the league as comps (Handzus, Lucic). Still, a guy like Handzuz, though overpaid, is still doing more than Legwand, at a slightly less salary.

Here are more comps for you-- Brendan Morrison (1.5), John Madden (2.7), Jamie Langenbrunner (2.9), Marco Sturm (3.3), Vermette (3.3), Pavelski (1.7), Morrow (4.1), Cleary (2.8), Prospal (1.1) and Macel Goc (.7). There won't be the perfect comp, but you get the idea.

Again, I don't think he's the most overpaid role player in the league, but there is little doubt in my mind that he's overpaid. I think he'd get around 2-3 million on the open market, 3 years or so.
Now read the title of your thread. It's either one or the other, not both.

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03-17-2010, 04:10 PM
  #94
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dulz didn't start the thread and actually stayed out of it at first....

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03-17-2010, 04:12 PM
  #95
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dulz didn't start the thread and actually stayed out of it at first....
Oops.

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03-17-2010, 05:05 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
He pulled some of the most overpaid players in the league as comps (Handzus, Lucic). Still, a guy like Handzuz, though overpaid, is still doing more than Legwand, at a slightly less salary.

Here are more comps for you-- Brendan Morrison (1.5), John Madden (2.7), Jamie Langenbrunner (2.9), Marco Sturm (3.3), Vermette (3.3), Pavelski (1.7), Morrow (4.1), Cleary (2.8), Prospal (1.1) and Macel Goc (.7). There won't be the perfect comp, but you get the idea.

Actually I pulled most of the 4-5 million dollar salaries with a few exceptions, I was going to throw guys like Drury in the spirit of fairness I went for the 4-5 million dollar guys. Those comparables you have usually have some circumstance around them that lead to the low price. Morrison, Madden, Langenbrunner, and Prospal are on the downsides of their career where Legwand was in his prime. Goc had no offers anywhere in the league and had to sign for the near minimum. Pavelski is a RFA which keeps his value down. Legwand had much higher numbers than the others when he signed his contract, yes even Morrow who produced after he signed. Your comparisons dont hold much weight.

You admit there will not be a perfect comparison, well would the best be to see the guys that are at the 4.5 million range. That is the list I provided, there are more of course but they are the same caliber of players. I was actually surprised that there wasnt anyone better than Legwand in that range that was not an RFA when the contract was signed.

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03-17-2010, 05:46 PM
  #97
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David Poile did overpay on Legwand and Erat contracts. People need to take in the previous summer's events into context as well. The team had just shipped off some good players. I wouldn't put it past the players to be nervous about those events as well; afraid to sign and settle down only to be shipped off again. And I'm sure the last thing Poile wanted was to lose two more guys who had been with the team for a long time, who knew our system. The ownership group also wanted to show the city that the team was willing to bring guys back.

I'm not suggesting that it makes the signings 100% ok, but that needs to be taken into context as well.

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03-17-2010, 06:02 PM
  #98
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Dulzhok, I'll concede that on a production basis, $4.5M is a bit rich, but like Webersmashpuck pointed out and as I mentioned as well, production is only one part of the equation. To get the peace of mind knowing that you'll have a core player locked up through their prime years, you will pay a premium. Some will go horribly wrong (Daniel Briere, Thomas Vanek), some will make you breathe a sigh of relief (Sedin and Sedin), and some are safe enough that a player is only a few points off of justifying his contract, and if he's got other things he brings to the table, he's not doing too bad, and I think that's where Legwand fits.

I won't argue that Legwand is overpaid, but if this (or even Erat and Dumont) are the biggest problems Nashville has, then I think that's pretty good management. Every team has misses, Nashville's hit more than they've missed, and even these misses aren't terrible in comparison to team-killers.

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03-17-2010, 10:02 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Webersmashpuck View Post
I was actually surprised that there wasnt anyone better than Legwand in that range that was not an RFA when the contract was signed.
So I can't use RFAs (eventhough you use RFAs in your comps), and I can't use 33 year old UFAS? You're really limiting the field here.

Langenbrunner may be 34, but he's not washed up. Plus, I'm pretty sure he was getting similar money when he was 30.

Even using the comps you pulled- Mike Fisher: "A Legwand clone"- I disagree. First off, Fisher has 21g, and 46 points this year, twice the goals of Legwand. Second, he's a battler, and the opposite of the perimeter player Legwand is. Still, he's slightly overpaid according to Ottawa fans.

Morrow? Sturm? Vermette? I'll give you more. Rene Borque just signed a 3.3m dollar extension that will take him into UFA. His production would be tops on our team. Patrick Sharp- 3.9m. Franzen-3.9. Samulesson-2.5m. Ribeiro- 5m.

I expect Pavleski to get around 4m next year. Kesler maybe around 5m. They have the defensive game of Legwand, and are way better in the offensive zone, and play much more aggressively. Those are the types of "two-way players" you give 5m dollars.

I don't think we couldn't trade Legwand unless we took on an overpaid contract in return.

I still like the idea of Briere for Lewgand. Same contract amount, but Philly saves 2m in cap space. Goc can be our "defensive center" for .7m.

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03-18-2010, 12:18 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
So I can't use RFAs (eventhough you use RFAs in your comps), and I can't use 33 year old UFAS? You're really limiting the field here.

Langenbrunner may be 34, but he's not washed up. Plus, I'm pretty sure he was getting similar money when he was 30.

Even using the comps you pulled- Mike Fisher: "A Legwand clone"- I disagree. First off, Fisher has 21g, and 46 points this year, twice the goals of Legwand. Second, he's a battler, and the opposite of the perimeter player Legwand is. Still, he's slightly overpaid according to Ottawa fans.

Morrow? Sturm? Vermette? I'll give you more. Rene Borque just signed a 3.3m dollar extension that will take him into UFA. His production would be tops on our team. Patrick Sharp- 3.9m. Franzen-3.9. Samulesson-2.5m. Ribeiro- 5m.

I expect Pavleski to get around 4m next year. Kesler maybe around 5m. They have the defensive game of Legwand, and are way better in the offensive zone, and play much more aggressively. Those are the types of "two-way players" you give 5m dollars.

I don't think we couldn't trade Legwand unless we took on an overpaid contract in return.

I still like the idea of Briere for Lewgand. Same contract amount, but Philly saves 2m in cap space. Goc can be our "defensive center" for .7m.
Those are some good points; Samuelsson just hit 30 goals and he is solid defensively, and Kesler's negotiating position pre-Olympics (before they decided to hold off on further talks till the end of the season) was that the team was offering him $4M and he was asking for around $5M, but was likely to settle for something in between. Though to be fair, he's publicly stated that he thinks players need to accept a below-market wage for a home-team discount if they want to win here. (Haha, and his buddy Burrows then promptly signed for $2M and is hitting 30 goals as well for that, we'll see how much Kesler takes his own advice!)

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