i think those last two games against the rangers will be if we can get 4th and home ice for the 1st rd. call me a homer but i see us doing very well n the stretch.
I honestly think they can win the cup. prob a 5 or 6 seed like most say, but then a magic cup run. Did anyone think Cam Ward would win the Canes a cup? Lavi must have that magic.
The Hurricanes were a 112 point team that year which was good for 3rd best in the league. Their goaltending was suspect, but they were a great team that year.
Man philly fans are pessimistic. Ottawa and Buffalo are teams the Flyers can beat. Didn't the flyers just take 2 from montreal and the devils prebreak? Washington has what varlamov and jose theodore? Pittsburg has owned the flyers the past couple of seasons so a matchup vs them would be troublesome but I do not see a reason ANY team in the east doesn't have a chance (except rangers and bruins and maybe ottawa ). Also the flyers have 14 more games in which anything can happen.
The Flyers should be a 112 point team this year which should be good for 3rd best in the league, but they had coaching issues. Their goaltending is suspect, but they are a great team this year.
Last edited by Chris Shafer: 03-15-2010 at 05:17 PM.
This man and every post-lockout Stanley Cup champion goaltender says that goaltending is overrated. Are you going to believe them or Montreal fans?
Until the Flyers win a cup with Leighton his play this year hasn't proven a thing. We all know the Flyers have had success getting decent play out of mediocre goalies, but they have a grand total of zero Cups with them.
Goaltending isn't overrated especially if you aren't an elite team. How many non elite teams since the lockout have won with so called dime a dozen goaltending. That's right, zero.
I'm not sure how this turned into a goaltending debate, but carry on.
Until the Flyers win a cup with Leighton his play this year hasn't proven a thing. We all know the Flyers have had success getting decent play out of mediocre goalies, but they have a grand total of zero Cups with them.
Until the Canucks win with Luongo, he hasn't proven a thing. The Olympics don't mean a thing right? I mean, if Luongo was so good he'd have both already. Vokoun? Lundqvist? Miller? Thomas ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine
Goaltending isn't overrated especially if you aren't an elite team. How many non elite teams since the lockout have won with so called dime a dozen goaltending. That's right, zero.
How many non-elite teams have won with elite goaltending since the lockout? That's right, zero.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine
I'm not sure how this turned into a goaltending debate, but carry on.
I enjoy goalie debates, and quite frankly Leighton is likely the reason we can't win a Stanley Cup this year. We have an incredible defense and a very good offense. Still Leighton isn't even an Osgood, and we certainly aren't a 2007-08 Detroit.
Even so, every team has their faults. I'd rather our problem be goaltending than defense, offense, or coaching.
Until the Canucks win with Luongo, he hasn't proven a thing. The Olympics don't mean a thing right? I mean, if Luongo was so good he'd have both already. Vokoun? Lundqvist? Miller? Thomas ?
No, they haven't won a thing, but who wouldn't feel comfortable going into the playoffs with one of those goalies over any of the goalies we've had in recent years? They aren't a guarantee for a ring, but they are more of a guarantee to play at an elite level during the playoffs than a mediocre goalie would. Place them on a team with a very good offense and a great defense and you got a scary good team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer
How many non-elite teams have won with elite goaltending since the lockout? That's right, zero.
Correct, but at the same time the Flyers might be an elite team with elite goaltending.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer
I enjoy goalie debates, and quite frankly Leighton is likely the reason we can't win a Stanley Cup this year. We have an incredible defense and a very good offense. Still Leighton isn't even an Osgood, and we certainly aren't a 2007-08 Detroit.
Even so, every team has their faults. I'd rather our problem be goaltending than defense, offense, or coaching.
That's a fair statement, but I for one would love to see a Flyers team where the biggest question mark isn't in goal. It would be nice to see a Flyers team that was above average in all areas. Sub out Leighton with someone like Vokoun and the Flyers have a good chance of pulling out an upset this year. Instead it's likely they'll be once again back to the drawing board next year and in search for a new goalie.
WAS -- goaltending iffy, defense is iffy
PIT -- don't want any part
BUF -- we can beat them. They have goaltending, that's it.
NJ -- I think we have more depth than them, I think we would win just like we did in 04.
OTT -- More depth, better defense
MTL -- beatable
That's a fair statement, but I for one would love to see a Flyers team where the biggest question mark isn't in goal. It would be nice to see a Flyers team that was above average in all areas. Sub out Leighton with someone like Vokoun and the Flyers have a good chance of pulling out an upset this year. Instead it's likely they'll be once again back to the drawing board next year and in search for a new goalie.
It's not realistic in a cap world. I mean, if we could poach Vokoun for Hartnell I'd be ecstatic. That's completely unrealistic. Maybe Hartnell + 1st + Prospect. Still, do we really want to give up our 2011 1st, our only one in four years? People will complain about our lack of firsts, but Pronger is a very big reason why we're even where we are. Would Hartnell even waive his NTC for Florida? Probably not. It's a nice thought, but unrealistic.
As for the Flyers with Vokoun being able to pull off an upset...I don't think if we had Vokoun we'd being doing much upsetting. There is no team in the NHL that can compete with the Flyers + Vokoun. None. Every team has their own issues for the exact same reasons I cited above; the exact same reasons the Flyers have issues. It's a league of give and take. No one will ever be perfect.
I'm okay with going back to the drawing board in the offseason as long as we don't do one thing: overpay, whether it be in assets or salary space, for another dime-a-dozen goaltender (by dime-a-dozen I mean everyone not named Lundqvist, Brodeur, Luongo, Vokoun, or Miller).
It's not realistic in a cap world. I mean, if we could poach Vokoun for Hartnell I'd be ecstatic. That's completely unrealistic. Maybe Hartnell + 1st + Prospect. Still, do we really want to give up our 2011 1st, our only one in four years? People will complain about our lack of firsts, but Pronger is a very big reason why we're even where we are. Would Hartnell even waive his NTC for Florida? Probably not. It's a nice thought, but unrealistic.
As for the Flyers with Vokoun being able to pull off an upset...I don't think if we had Vokoun we'd being doing much upsetting. There is no team in the NHL that can compete with the Flyers + Vokoun. None. Every team has their own issues for the exact same reasons I cited above; the exact same reasons the Flyers have issues. It's a league of give and take. No one will ever be perfect.
I'm okay with going back to the drawing board in the offseason as long as we don't do one thing: overpay, whether it be in assets or salary space, for another dime-a-dozen goaltender (by dime-a-dozen I mean everyone not named Lundqvist, Brodeur, Luongo, Vokoun, or Miller).
Well it's unrealistic for us because Holmgren has done a poor job at managing our cap and our assets. I agree that acquiring such a goalie is a pipe dream, but my overall point is that elite goaltending can make a huge difference for us.
No teams are ever going to be perfect, but the well managed teams come darn close to it or at least have their weaknesses completely minimized by their strengths. The Flyers are neither. They sit at 15th in the league which is completely underwhelming compared to the expectations at the beginning of the season. I think it's naive to ignore a chronic weakness in goaltending. Every year we go into the playoffs wondering if it is going to be good enough. At some point it would make sense to put an end to that question. You recognize yourself that this team would be unstoppable if they somehow found that guy.
I don't want them to over pay either, but obviously our opinions differ on what is considered an overpayment. I think the Flyers best chance at getting an elite goalie is going for a young talented goalie with huge upside, but to get one of those guys they will likely have to give up a valuable asset. For you that's an overpayment, for me that's a solid investment in the one position that is an annual weakness for the Flyers.
I can't wait for some physical first round fodder playoff team with nothing to lose to walk right over the Capitals and give them a good scare in the first round.
I lived in DC for 4.5 years. I've followed their team. I've covered their team. I have a lot of friends who are Caps fans. I know a lot about them, possibly more than any other team with the exception of the Flyers. The Caps are not built to perform in the postseason.
Defense wins Championships...and no goaltending is NOT defense. Team defense is defense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine
Well it's unrealistic for us because Holmgren has done a poor job at managing our cap and our assets. I agree that acquiring such a goalie is a pipe dream, but my overall point is that elite goaltending can make a huge difference for us.
We're going to disagree on goaltending, and we're going to disagree on Holmgren's management job throughout his tenure with the Flyers. That's just how it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine
No teams are ever going to be perfect, but the well managed teams come darn close to it or at least have their weaknesses completely minimized by their strengths. The Flyers are neither.
The Flyers are a well managed team that can move futures for immediate talent because they have done so well in the draft and through trades in the last couple of years. People complain about Holmgren's cap management, but if he wasn't here, we'd probably be a bottom feeder not worrying about the cap for a number of years. The Flyers are set-up with a brilliant core for the next 5-7 years plus. We have to build around that and move pieces in and out, but we're going to be good for a pretty decent stretch thanks to Holmgren.
A Stanley Cup is incredibly hard to obtain. You need a perfect set of circumstances with the right team at the right time. The most you can realistically ask from a GM is to put you in a position where you have the opportunity to win a Cup year in and year out. Asking for anything more is absolutely reckless and unrealistic. If Flyers fans ran every team in the league, there would be 27 GMs switching teams every three seasons or so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine
They sit at 15th in the league which is completely underwhelming compared to the expectations at the beginning of the season.
Yeah, I blame Stevens and injuries. It's a fact that those two factors effected the team whether you want to believe it or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine
I think it's naive to ignore a chronic weakness in goaltending. Every year we go into the playoffs wondering if it is going to be good enough. At some point it would make sense to put an end to that question. You recognize yourself that this team would be unstoppable if they somehow found that guy.
Unfortunately, goaltending is not a chronic weakness when you're as good as pretty much everyone else in the NHL. Every year we have dime-a-dozen goaltending. That's neither an advantage or a disadvantage. This year, because of Emery's injury, we're stuck with someone that is probably less than dime-a-dozen. Regardless of how good we make him look, that's still a fact. This is the first year in a while I consider goaltending an actual weakness.
I also want to take this opportunity to point out a phrase you used: "that guy." A thing that I find interesting with the NHL is that "that guy" is normally who the team feels comfortable with. Though I feel that goaltending is dime-a-dozen, there are differences in ability between those goaltenders however slight. Still, even if Halak was a little better, the Penguins would not trade Fleury for Halak just because of that fact. There is a certain comfort level organizations find with goalies. The players on the ice play better with goaltenders that they feel comfortable with. The Flyers have never found the right goalie at the right price who they (or the team) was absolutely comfortable with. Leighton seems to be showing signs of chemistry with the team, but unfortunately he is not necessarily a talented goalie we should be betting our future on. It's hard to find goalies that meet the right qualifications to become a starter for 4-5 years with an organization through the ups and downs. Usually only the elites are good enough to pull that off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine
I don't want them to over pay either, but obviously our opinions differ on what is considered an overpayment. I think the Flyers best chance at getting an elite goalie is going for a young talented goalie with huge upside, but to get one of those guys they will likely have to give up a valuable asset. For you that's an overpayment, for me that's a solid investment in the one position that is an annual weakness for the Flyers.
I agree. That's the best chance the Flyers have at getting an elite goalie, but the odds of that goalie becoming elite are at best 1/50. I don't consider it a solid investment to trade what could possibly become an elite forward for someone who will likely end up among those other 49 out of 50 goaltenders.
I think you have to look no farther than last year...
Was Pit an Elite team all year? No.
Was fluery and elite goalie all year? No.
But he won them a series against our flyers and he and Max Talbot won them game seven, not their two superstars...
He was Elite when the it mattered and had the Pedigree to boot...
So the Penguins are not an elite team because they can win without their elite players?
Is that seriously your argument?
Gonchar is a very good defenseman. It's nice to have elite forwards, but take Timonen off our 2007-08 or 2008-09 team. How far do we get? Certainly not the playoffs. Their defense is poor as it is. Take Gonchar out, and they're practically a joke. When he returned to full health the Penguins, along with some good winger pick-ups (who knew that Crosby and Malkin need decent wingers in order to win games), managed to take their elite team to a champsionship.
and maybe ottawa ). Also the flyers have 14 more games in which anything can happen.
