True, but their drop just seems to be a much bigger one. Look at last year-when Gonchar was out, they were in 10th, he comes back, they make it to 4th and win the Cup.
We're going to disagree on goaltending, and we're going to disagree on Holmgren's management job throughout his tenure with the Flyers. That's just how it is.
Obviously, but do you not think Holmgren's cap management is a reason we can't afford a top flight goalie?
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer
The Flyers are a well managed team that can move futures for immediate talent because they have done so well in the draft and through trades in the last couple of years. People complain about Holmgren's cap management, but if he wasn't here, we'd probably be a bottom feeder not worrying about the cap for a number of years. The Flyers are set-up with a brilliant core for the next 5-7 years plus. We have to build around that and move pieces in and out, but we're going to be good for a pretty decent stretch thanks to Holmgren.
A Stanley Cup is incredibly hard to obtain. You need a perfect set of circumstances with the right team at the right time. The most you can realistically ask from a GM is to put you in a position where you have the opportunity to win a Cup year in and year out. Asking for anything more is absolutely reckless and unrealistic. If Flyers fans ran every team in the league, there would be 27 GMs switching teams every three seasons or so.
We'll agree to disagree on Holmgren's management. I also don't think we'd just be a bottom feeder collecting high picks without Holmgren. You don't think any GM couldn't have done what he did or did it better? He made some shrewd moves, but ultimately it doesn't take a genius to throw a ton of cash at Briere, Hartnell, and Timonen.
Of course it's not easy to win a Cup, but I expect to be more than a 5-6 seed that has "a chance." This team should be one of the top team in the league that is a legit threat for the Cup. So far this team has finished 5th, 6th, and is on track for another 5th or 6th seed in the last three years. It's not impressive to be a team that just makes the playoffs. To me this season is a huge fail after acquiring Pronger if they don't make a serious run. The regular season already looks like a dud considering they are on pace for fewer points than last year.
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer
Yeah, I blame Stevens and injuries. It's a fact that those two factors effected the team whether you want to believe it or not.
Sure they were factors, but every team has injuries so they are not unique in that regard. In fact I feel the Flyers have been fairly lucky this year in regard to injury because it wasn't too long ago when the Flyers were constantly at the top in regards to man games lost to injury. The Emery injury has been particular unfortunate, but that hasn't hurt us in the win-loss column because they've been fortunate with Leighton thus far. I felt Stevens was a problem, but lately we've seen the effort issue crop up once again and they've been a .500 team since the Olympic break which might point to the fact that the team isn't really as good as we all thought they'd be.
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer
Unfortunately, goaltending is not a chronic weakness when you're as good as pretty much everyone else in the NHL. Every year we have dime-a-dozen goaltending. That's neither an advantage or a disadvantage. This year, because of Emery's injury, we're stuck with someone that is probably less than dime-a-dozen. Regardless of how good we make him look, that's still a fact. This is the first year in a while I consider goaltending an actual weakness.
Every year when the playoffs role around the hockey world talks about how the Flyers biggest weakness is goaltending. How can you say it hasn't been an actual weakness?
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer
I also want to take this opportunity to point out a phrase you used: "that guy." A thing that I find interesting with the NHL is that "that guy" is normally who the team feels comfortable with. Though I feel that goaltending is dime-a-dozen, there are differences in ability between those goaltenders however slight. Still, even if Halak was a little better, the Penguins would not trade Fleury for Halak just because of that fact. There is a certain comfort level organizations find with goalies. The players on the ice play better with goaltenders that they feel comfortable with. The Flyers have never found the right goalie at the right price who they (or the team) was absolutely comfortable with. Leighton seems to be showing signs of chemistry with the team, but unfortunately he is not necessarily a talented goalie we should be betting our future on. It's hard to find goalies that meet the right qualifications to become a starter for 4-5 years with an organization through the ups and downs. Usually only the elites are good enough to pull that off.
I don't think it's just the elites considering you think only 4-5 goalies in the league are elite. Calgary, Vancouver, San Jose, Pittsburgh, New Jersey, Buffalo, Minnesota, New York R, Florida, and Carolina all have found goalies that is that guy for them. The Islanders had that guy as well until DiPietro got injured. Dallas had their guy in Turco and Anaheim had that guy in Giguere until they both got old. You might consider Thomas that guy for Boston, but they also have Rask to potentially be that guy for them. The Canadiens have both Price and Halak and one is likely to be that guy for them. The Kings have Quick who early on looks to be that guy and Bernier right behind him.
It's not real easy to find a guy who can be the #1 for half a decade, but the Flyers have also been unusually bad at finding a quality goalie.
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer
I agree. That's the best chance the Flyers have at getting an elite goalie, but the odds of that goalie becoming elite are at best 1/50. I don't consider it a solid investment to trade what could possibly become an elite forward for someone who will likely end up among those other 49 out of 50 goaltenders.
How do you come up with those odds? I don't agree the odds are that low in regards to someone like Price who has a great pedigree and has already done more than your average 22 year old goalie. His career thus far is just as good or better than the current elite goalies were at that age. I think there is a good chance he reaches that level as long as he stays healthy.
5th and we will play the Pens in round 1. We will beat them in 4 straight shutouts. We will then beat the Caps in 4 straight shutouts. We will sweep the conference finals and then beat the Canucks in 6.
This man and every post-lockout Stanley Cup champion goaltender says that goaltending is overrated. Are you going to believe them or Montreal fans?
I'm sorry, are you really trying to tell me that Leighton is going to be as effective for us in the playoffs as Fleury was for Pittsburgh? Because I absolutely do not believe it for an instant.
Even Pens fans will tell you that Fleury is the number one reason they beat us last year.
We all really know it was Carcillo, though.
Last edited by infidelappel*: 03-15-2010 at 10:32 PM.
True, but their drop just seems to be a much bigger one. Look at last year-when Gonchar was out, they were in 10th, he comes back, they make it to 4th and win the Cup.
Well I'm not sure if this was at the same time or not but, if it was at the same time their low position was also probably due to Therrien no longer being an effective coach.
Well I'm not sure if this was at the same time or not but, if it was at the same time their low position was also probably due to Therrien no longer being an effective coach.
It could be, but the coaching change and Gonchar's return were almost at the same time. I can't believe Bylsma installed a new system that fast, and Gonchar was the coincidental return.
I can't wait for some physical first round fodder playoff team with nothing to lose to walk right over the Capitals and give them a good scare in the first round.
I lived in DC for 4.5 years. I've followed their team. I've covered their team. I have a lot of friends who are Caps fans. I know a lot about them, possibly more than any other team with the exception of the Flyers. The Caps are not built to perform in the postseason.
Defense wins Championships...and no goaltending is NOT defense. Team defense is defense.
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Normally id agree with you but the Caps may not need a great D to beat US. To beat a team like the Hawks? Yes. They have such great depth and can score a lot of goals fast. Reminds me of the early 90's pens that won with offense.
Heres how I see it. If we were to win we would NEED a great series out of Leighton. The Caps really wouldnt be in the same situation. To me that means that they SHOULD beat us. Of course there are a few wild cards here.
When the Caps backs are against the wall is what scares me. They come out hard. No lead is safe, in a game or the series. Thats tough to play against. This vs the Devils or Sabres is just not the case.
It's taken a while to sink in... but I'm finally accepting the fact that Michael Leighton is our goalie for the rest of the year. Expectations? The same as they always are when you are a Philadelphia Flyers fan. Stanley Cup. On the road to the cup I want to beat the Devils, Penguins, Capitals, and Blackhawks. Beat the best.
Anyway, what do you think the Flyers do with Leighton if he performs like a monster in the playoffs and we make a run or even win a cup? Sign the extension and leave some breathing room just incase?
Anyway, what do you think the Flyers do with Leighton if he performs like a monster in the playoffs and we make a run or even win a cup? Sign the extension and leave some breathing room just incase?
We sign Leighton to an extension even at $1.00m a year I'm a much happier man than I would be signing Turco to $5.00m a year.
I think we need to make a trade for a young goalie, but I definitely don't want to overpay for any of Harding, Schneider, Halak, or Price. Giroux/JVR going the other way is just not an option. Coburn/Parent is a possibility.
I hope its ok for a Caps fan to jump in. If not, just delete me. Two points.
A. If beating the Capitals was so elementary, how did they get so far ahead of everybody.
B. If they are not competitive in the playoffs, how is it that they have a 6-2 record in elimination games the past two playoffs? Wasn't the 2-1 game 7 win over the Rangers a prime example of the games the Capitals could not win? The team lacked maturity and experience more than anything every season that goes by that becomes less of an issue.
I hope its ok for a Caps fan to jump in. If not, just delete me. Two points.
A. If beating the Capitals was so elementary, how did they get so far ahead of everybody.
B. If they are not competitive in the playoffs, how is it that they have a 6-2 record in elimination games the past two playoffs? Wasn't the 2-1 game 7 win over the Rangers a prime example of the games the Capitals could not win? The team lacked maturity and experience more than anything every season that goes by that becomes less of an issue.
Most people on here realize that the Caps would probably beat us in 4 or 5, don't worry.
I'm not a fan of your guys' Cup chances (iffy defensive team IMO and iffy goaltending), but you'd handle us no problem.
I hope its ok for a Caps fan to jump in. If not, just delete me. Two points.
A. If beating the Capitals was so elementary, how did they get so far ahead of everybody.
You see it every year. There are teams built for the playoffs, and then there are others who are not. It's different to see a Capitals game in the future during the regular season and just prepare for that one game. Normally teams will spend a few drills working out how the Capitals play and try to focus on beating them as part of the big picture of the entire season. When the playoffs roll around, each series is a season in and of itself. You focus on beating the one opponent in front of you. The Capitals, when they're not hidden by the onslaught of shuffling opponents that the season brings, are a one-trick pony.
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Originally Posted by txpd
B. If they are not competitive in the playoffs, how is it that they have a 6-2 record in elimination games the past two playoffs? Wasn't the 2-1 game 7 win over the Rangers a prime example of the games the Capitals could not win? The team lacked maturity and experience more than anything every season that goes by that becomes less of an issue.
Maturity and inexperience are important obviously, but a balanced team is more essential. I'm not saying the Caps won't do well, but they are not miles ahead of the other competitive teams when coaches have the opportunity to slow down and focus on an opponent.
I never made the claim that the Caps aren't a legitimate contender. No one here did. The problem is that I see four legitimate contenders in the East. Each of those teams has their strengths and weaknesses, but there is no greater difference in terms of strength and weakness than the Caps have with the offense and defense. The Penguins are a very good offense with a mediocre defense and alright goaltending. The Flyers are a very good offense, an elite defense, and subpar goaltending. The Devils are a pretty good offense, a very good defense, and elite goaltending. The Capitals are an elite offense, a poor defense, and subpar goaltending. Just because the Capitals are miles ahead right now does not mean they have a distinct advantage in the postseason other than last change and weaker opponents early.
Unfortunately, goaltending is not a chronic weakness when you're as good as pretty much everyone else in the NHL. Every year we have dime-a-dozen goaltending. That's neither an advantage or a disadvantage. This year, because of Emery's injury, we're stuck with someone that is probably less than dime-a-dozen. Regardless of how good we make him look, that's still a fact. This is the first year in a while I consider goaltending an actual weakness.
I also want to take this opportunity to point out a phrase you used: "that guy." A thing that I find interesting with the NHL is that "that guy" is normally who the team feels comfortable with. Though I feel that goaltending is dime-a-dozen, there are differences in ability between those goaltenders however slight. Still, even if Halak was a little better, the Penguins would not trade Fleury for Halak just because of that fact. There is a certain comfort level organizations find with goalies. The players on the ice play better with goaltenders that they feel comfortable with. The Flyers have never found the right goalie at the right price who they (or the team) was absolutely comfortable with. Leighton seems to be showing signs of chemistry with the team, but unfortunately he is not necessarily a talented goalie we should be betting our future on. It's hard to find goalies that meet the right qualifications to become a starter for 4-5 years with an organization through the ups and downs. Usually only the elites are good enough to pull that off.
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i love pronger cuz he says things without saying them. asked in the postgame about what happened to thier effort after the first period he says"good question maybe your first" which in reporter speak is "why dont you look into that.
what happened early in the 2nd period against the rangers? leightons 1st goal. its been overshadowed by the charmin one he let go by in the 3rd but i think its alot less the players and specificaly the coach who is comfortable with him in net.
goaltending is more important in the playoffs because momentum is so important in the playoffs. it carries from game to game and breeds the confidence a team needs to be successfull. and nothing can kill your confidence and sap momentum like a soft goal. im the first to agree with you that "elite goaltending' is overhyped but what we have is poor not mediocre and it can really kill us in the playoffs.
I hope its ok for a Caps fan to jump in. If not, just delete me. Two points.
A. If beating the Capitals was so elementary, how did they get so far ahead of everybody.
Same reason Buffalo was so far out a few years back.
Quote:
B. If they are not competitive in the playoffs, how is it that they have a 6-2 record in elimination games the past two playoffs? Wasn't the 2-1 game 7 win over the Rangers a prime example of the games the Capitals could not win? The team lacked maturity and experience more than anything every season that goes by that becomes less of an issue.
Caps shouldn't have been in a Game 7 with the Rangers...
We sign Leighton to an extension even at $1.00m a year I'm a much happier man than I would be signing Turco to $5.00m a year.
I think we need to make a trade for a young goalie, but I definitely don't want to overpay for any of Harding, Schneider, Halak, or Price. Giroux/JVR going the other way is just not an option. Coburn/Parent is a possibility.
So, you're willing to move a young D that is running low on RFA years, and has proven to have poor hockey IQ the last few years (despite exceptional physical talents), and a guy that hasn't been able to stay healthy?
At least you're willing to send value the other way.
It could be, but the coaching change and Gonchar's return were almost at the same time. I can't believe Bylsma installed a new system that fast, and Gonchar was the coincidental return.
Gonchar's return helped, but that team hated Therrien and it was affecting their play, and Bylsma changed a lot of little things that helped get them going in the right direction.
Gonchar's return helped, but that team hated Therrien and it was affecting their play, and Bylsma changed a lot of little things that helped get them going in the right direction.
The personality of the coaching changed drastically. The scheme and system did not change in any significant way.
I don't agree the odds are that low in regards to someone like Price who has a great pedigree and has already done more than your average 22 year old goalie. His career thus far is just as good or better than the current elite goalies were at that age. I think there is a good chance he reaches that level as long as he stays healthy.
