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Old
03-17-2010, 09:10 AM
  #101
Sasha Cares
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Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
i dont know, looks like bergeron got hurt - the bruins cant beat us next time without any forwards.

i think pothier, even tonight aside from the one play has been our best all around d since he arrived. he is the anti-corvo. passes when he should pass, shoots when he should shoot, skates well, hits a bit. just a real good two way game ala wesley in his prime or chaisson. a two year deal would be perfect, if he looks like he can be healthy, which is a big if. picard....walk away and dont qualify him. he isnt THAT bad, but he isnt good enough to take a spot away from mcbain/carson/ top pick.

pothier one play is one ive expected more from this team. with all the changes to the lineup i assumed there would be some gaffes. i love how pothier mentions how "simple" the scheme is here compared to wash. i always figured mo didnt really have any set plays, it always shows in our own end where too often guys dont even look like they know where they are supposed to go. to me his comments are telling and not a compliment.

im glad cole stuck it to you haters. that retarded hate cole thread came out after his first game back in over a month. the guy came back from a broken league BEFORE that injury. lets see you guys skate in the nhl after a broken leg. useless my dimpled ass. i have no problem with his contract, and he is hardly the albatross on this squad. he absolutely fits on this team going forward, even as a third line banger. i dont expect the offense from him anymore, i just love it when he can skate. sammy/brindy/whitney i hope are all gone next year and i hope cole stays. id take friggin walker back before the other three.

Sorry my friend, Cole will never score 20 goals again, He may never score 12 goals again

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03-17-2010, 11:15 AM
  #102
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as i said in the post, i dont care about offense. he could score less than 12 and id be fine with it, though i disagree that he wont score 12 again. he hasnt lost his touch as much as his health. if he can stay relatively healthy i think the hands tend to improve. he looks rusty as hell to me more than anything else. i think if he comes into next year with the mindset of a third liner instead of thinking he has to be staals wing i think he'll be fine. they had him on left wing early, and he was overextending trying to be the guy - got smoked and broke his leg. if he starts on the third line, finds some chemistry and just plays the power forward in front of the net and corners hed be fine and likely healthier. i think he'll get 15-20, and you can call me out next year at this time all you like - if he stays.

brindy/whitney/sammy are the ones keeping jobs away from kids. the kids cant have all the jobs, and i would prefer a vet in the power forward/leadership role.

larose needs to go int he off season. he is a guy you overpay to stay when you dont have depth. we didnt have the depth when we signed him, we do now. his job is exactly the job a lower prospect from the minors is supposed to fill for cheap. hello pat dwyer.

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03-17-2010, 11:26 AM
  #103
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I didn't think the Canes looked that bad last night, they just didn't play consistently. Halfway through the game they were behind in shots something like 30-12. Halfway through the third it was 32-31.

As for Whitney, I agree that his reputation was inflated by trade rumors. The first game after the deadline, he was in the background of a TV shot and had the thousand-yard stare while sitting on the bench -- mentally removed from what was going on around him, probably asking himself what the weather would be like in Los Angeles.

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03-17-2010, 11:28 AM
  #104
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Cole doesn't even have to have a 3rd liners mentality as much as he does a checking liners mentality heading into next season. Cole on the Sutter line, used as a checking line, is still a viable option to me. Whether or not that's a legit 2nd line or more of a 3rd line is up for debate but I'd personally call something along the lines of Ruutu-Sutter-Cole a 2nd line based on skill level.

And I agree on LaRose. If we can somehow offload him then use Osala to replace him, we won't be losing much if we do and will be gaining an extra million plus in cap space.

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03-17-2010, 11:46 AM
  #105
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Personally I think LaRose would be a tough guy to replace with a minor leaguer. He ought to be a 15-20 goal scorer in an "on" year, plus being a solid forechecker and a great locker-room character. Next year is a contract year from him.

I'd keep him on the roster specifically for the benefit of those young guys, rather than replacing him with them.

EDIT: Besides, the cap space won't do the team much good unless it's spent... and I don't see them spending to the cap in 2010-11.

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Old
03-17-2010, 12:14 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Personally I think LaRose would be a tough guy to replace with a minor leaguer. He ought to be a 15-20 goal scorer in an "on" year, plus being a solid forechecker and a great locker-room character. Next year is a contract year from him.
LaRose will never, ever score 20 goals. 19 goals was a career year for them and even then he only had 31 total points. And he got those totals playing a large amount of time with Whitney and Cullen. The only way he will sniff 20 again is playing in a Top 6 role with powerplay time and the only way he'll be in that role is if the Hurricanes are hit by an epic flu bug for the entire season.

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I'd keep him on the roster specifically for the benefit of those young guys, rather than replacing him with them.
How does LaRose's presence benefit them? By forcing them to the 4th line or the AHL? Being a great locker room guy and making the young guys feel comfortable ultimately means very little when your presence on the team forces them to play 10 minutes on the 4th line when they aren't in the AHL.

Samson is dominating the AHL as a 22-year old and gets a handful of games playing with Brind'amour with no PP time as a reward. He will be written off as a "career minor leaguer" because he failed to produce while being put in a position to fail, as we already had the ice to committed to a bunch of Gritty Veterans who produce very little while sucking up enormous amounts of payroll.

Samsonov, Cole, LaRose, Brind'amour = waste of space and money. At least two of those players need to be gone. Three if Whitney is back.

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EDIT: Besides, the cap space won't do the team much good unless it's spent... and I don't see them spending to the cap in 2010-11.
It's still $1.9M of real dollars that could be spent elsewhere. $1.4M spent towards a Top 4 defenseman with LaRose replaced by a minor leaguer making league minimum (Dwyer), or $1.9M to have the "luxury" of Chad LaRose skating on our third line?


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Old
03-17-2010, 12:30 PM
  #107
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let's be realistic here...

There is no way we will be able to move Samsonov and Brind'Amour other than buying them out unless we package them with someone who can actually play hockey and as a result get fleeced.

Pretty much the same would apply to Cole and Larose.. Although, i think it'd be possible to trade them if they were paid accordingly and not being highly overpaid.

Whitney must not be resigned, imho, but we are going to be stuck with the above 4.

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Old
03-17-2010, 01:05 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
LaRose will never, ever score 20 goals. 19 goals was a career year for them and even then he only had 31 total points. And he got those totals playing a large amount of time with Whitney and Cullen.
Jeez, the guy scored 11 (in 58 games) and 19 in the two seasons prior to this. He's got two years to go before he hits 30. It's a little early to declare that he will "never, ever" have better seasons.

But for the sake of argument let's say he settles in the 15 range, while still being an energy player, forechecker and penalty killer. In the overall scope of things, he is hardly an albatross on the salary cap with that skill set.

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How does LaRose's presence benefit them? By forcing them to the 4th line or the AHL?
I really don't think that Chad LaRose, of all players, is standing between anyone and a successful NHL career. The only guys who should be competing directly with him are other role players -- if they're not skillful enough to make the top 3 lines but also aren't gritty enough to beat LaRose out of a job, they don't belong at the NHL level.

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Samson is dominating the AHL as a 22-year old and gets a handful of games playing with Brind'amour with no PP time as a reward. He will be written off as a "career minor leaguer" because he failed to produce while being put in a position to fail, as we already had the ice to committed to a bunch of Gritty Veterans who produce very little while sucking up enormous amounts of payroll.
I don't disagree, but cutting LaRose isn't the most effective way to open up PP time and provide an opportunity for a player who is aiming to be a big time scorer. There are 11 other forwards to move around if you want to open up those spots. Ultimately, those decisions are up to the coach on a day-to-day basis.

Quote:
It's still $1.9M of real dollars that could be spent elsewhere. $1.4M spent towards a Top 4 defenseman with LaRose replaced by a minor leaguer making league minimum (Dwyer), or $1.9M to have the "luxury" of Chad LaRose skating on our third line?
As I understand it, the Hurricanes are currently sitting on $13.2 million of cap space.

Hypothetically, let's say Brind'Amour ($3.6 million) and either Cole or Samsonov is gone ($2.5-2.9 million). That leaves a cushion of roughly $19.5 million. It's safe to say they will have space for whomever they want to bring in -- the question is whether all of that money is actually spent during a rebuilding season. I'm guessing it won't be.

Therefore, the most pressing question for next season is who will provide leadership to guide the team through a rough patch and help develop the prospects. LaRose is a system guy, who has spent his entire career defying expectations to rise to the next level. That is exactly the guy you want in the locker room around new NHL'ers, and around the fans when things get ugly.

I understand where you're coming from in calling for a salary dump, but there is a baby/bathwater dynamic in cutting role players for that purpose.

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Old
03-17-2010, 01:18 PM
  #109
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I certainly don't want our players learning apathy from players content with the amount of money they've "earned" and relaxing on their second contract. Brandon Sutter has more qualifications to lead these young guys than most of our roster.

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03-17-2010, 01:36 PM
  #110
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I'd Take LaRose 100 times before Cole... Especially when you factor in contracts...

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03-17-2010, 01:41 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
I certainly don't want our players learning apathy from players content with the amount of money they've "earned" and relaxing on their second contract. Brandon Sutter has more qualifications to lead these young guys than most of our roster.
brandon sutter will wear the A next season. Mark my words.
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I really don't think that Chad LaRose, of all players, is standing between anyone and a successful NHL career. The only guys who should be competing directly with him are other role players -- if they're not skillful enough to make the top 3 lines but also aren't gritty enough to beat LaRose out of a job, they don't belong at the NHL level.

I don't disagree, but cutting LaRose isn't the most effective way to open up PP time and provide an opportunity for a player who is aiming to be a big time scorer. There are 11 other forwards to move around if you want to open up those spots. Ultimately, those decisions are up to the coach on a day-to-day basis.
This.

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Old
03-17-2010, 01:42 PM
  #112
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I am starting to lean towards no Whitney next year either... He's really slowing down as the season wears on...

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03-17-2010, 02:18 PM
  #113
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Well you guys might as well learn to live with it, because I think we all know that Whitney is on his way back. I would be absolutely stunned if he doesn't sign an extension before July 1st. I just hope we don't give him too much money or years.

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03-17-2010, 02:21 PM
  #114
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If we're bringing Whitney back I want it to strictly be a year to year basis.

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03-17-2010, 02:27 PM
  #115
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Well you guys might as well learn to live with it, because I think we all know that Whitney is on his way back. I would be absolutely stunned if he doesn't sign an extension before July 1st. I just hope we don't give him too much money or years.
The one possible nice thing about bringing Whitney back in a one year contract is that we can trade him come next trade deadline. If he keeps at least some production and doesn't turn into Brind'Amour.

Hopefully, JR learned his lesson and there would be no NTC in his new contract.

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03-17-2010, 02:31 PM
  #116
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The question is how much to give him, and for how long. Let's hope his request for a 3-year deal from the Kings was a way of vetoing the trade, and not a preview of his expectations for this summer.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing them bring him back in the $2.5-3 million range. But only if it's for one year.

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03-17-2010, 02:38 PM
  #117
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My first choice is to not have Whitney back and keep moving on in the new direction. With that said, he would be a good guy to have around as we bring more kids into the mix as we will be a pretty young team. With that said, i'd much rather use the 2.5-3 million (if thats the number) on a defenceman.

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03-17-2010, 02:41 PM
  #118
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Yes, as much as his production would be missed, its time to get YOUNG. No one over 30, give our good prospects time to adjust, plan for the future. We can't be going on this playoff one year, no playoff another two years.

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03-17-2010, 02:49 PM
  #119
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agree w/ blledgreen on cole and osala-

the change i would like to see is make francis head coach bring in daniels as an asst and send Mo to albany if he must stay on the payroll----also make brindy strength and conditioning coach and liasion to the locker room-i really like the idea od sutter/cole/ruutu line if the could stay off IR

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03-17-2010, 02:50 PM
  #120
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If Whitney is looking for some form of security I'd have to think he'll either sign a 1 year deal with a NTC, or a 2 year deal without one.

Or JR could try playing hardball and just offer him a one year deal without a NTC and see what happens

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03-17-2010, 03:12 PM
  #121
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Jeez, the guy scored 11 (in 58 games) and 19 in the two seasons prior to this. He's got two years to go before he hits 30. It's a little early to declare that he will "never, ever" have better seasons.

But for the sake of argument let's say he settles in the 15 range, while still being an energy player, forechecker and penalty killer. In the overall scope of things, he is hardly an albatross on the salary cap with that skill set.
Why are we assuming 15 goals with a 28-year old that has hit that number or above precisely once in his career? Those 11 goals in 58 games came with a hat trick in the last game of the season and he played a large part of that season with Brind'amour and Williams (prior to Williams getting hurt). If LaRose is on the 3rd or 4th line where he belongs, he will not be hitting 15-20 goals.

Forechecker and penalty killer? Like you can't get those guys for slightly above league minimum as FAs. Did the PK miss a beat when LaRose was out and replaced by Patrick Dwyer?

I agree that he's not an albatross, but he's also far from a bargain on a small market team. At best he is paid fair market value, which would be nice if it weren't for the fact that we are paying market value for a dozen other players as well.

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I really don't think that Chad LaRose, of all players, is standing between anyone and a successful NHL career. The only guys who should be competing directly with him are other role players -- if they're not skillful enough to make the top 3 lines but also aren't gritty enough to beat LaRose out of a job, they don't belong at the NHL level.

I don't disagree, but cutting LaRose isn't the most effective way to open up PP time and provide an opportunity for a player who is aiming to be a big time scorer. There are 11 other forwards to move around if you want to open up those spots. Ultimately, those decisions are up to the coach on a day-to-day basis.
That would be a valid point of LaRose actually played on the 4th line, but he doesn't. He's in the Top 9 all the time and we know very well this coaching staff will defer to their trusted Gritty Veterans like LaRose over a rookie.

And not just about PP time. LaRose is averaging 13:05 a game at even strength. That's 20 seconds fewer than Cullen, 16 fewer seconds than Jokinen, 12 seconds fewer that Ruutu and Cole, and 13 seconds more than Sutter. If one of those players were gone, wouldn't it open up more of an opportunity for a young player? So why is it any different with LaRose? There's only so much even strength time to go around as well.

He's a roadblock to a young player looking to establish himself in the NHL. If Whitney is re-signed, where is the spot opened up for a young player? On the 4th line if Brind'amour retires?

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As I understand it, the Hurricanes are currently sitting on $13.2 million of cap space.
Which means little when the team will not be spending anywhere near the cap next season.

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Hypothetically, let's say Brind'Amour ($3.6 million) and either Cole or Samsonov is gone ($2.5-2.9 million). That leaves a cushion of roughly $19.5 million.
Who wants those players? Nobody. So thus we move along to players who somebody might want, such as LaRose.

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It's safe to say they will have space for whomever they want to bring in -- the question is whether all of that money is actually spent during a rebuilding season. I'm guessing it won't be.
All the more reason to move LaRose. $1.9M with $19.5M of cap space free is quite different than $1.9M with a team playing at the cap floor.

Quote:
Therefore, the most pressing question for next season is who will provide leadership to guide the team through a rough patch and help develop the prospects.

LaRose is a system guy, who has spent his entire career defying expectations to rise to the next level. That is exactly the guy you want in the locker room around new NHL'ers, and around the fans when things get ugly.
Or maybe the team won't be so bad or endure repeated rough stretches if we could use LaRose's money and the money earmarked for Whitney towards acquiring a few defensemen who can play hockey at a level higher than the neverending barrage of bottom-pairing defensemen shoved into Top 4 roles we have endured this season.

Aren't there other players on this team who are allegedly leaders?
Couldn't we just sign some Gritty Veteran 4th liner to help provide leadership?

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03-17-2010, 03:44 PM
  #122
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I'm going to try and consolidate this to make it more readable. Pardon my taking your quotes and moving them around a bit.

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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
If LaRose is on the 3rd or 4th line where he belongs, he will not be hitting 15-20 goals.

That would be a valid point of LaRose actually played on the 4th line, but he doesn't. He's in the Top 9 all the time and we know very well this coaching staff will defer to their trusted Gritty Veterans like LaRose over a rookie.

And not just about PP time. LaRose is averaging 13:05 a game at even strength. That's 20 seconds fewer than Cullen, 16 fewer seconds than Jokinen, 12 seconds fewer that Ruutu and Cole, and 13 seconds more than Sutter. If one of those players were gone, wouldn't it open up more of an opportunity for a young player? So why is it any different with LaRose? There's only so much even strength time to go around as well.
All of this is the responsibility of the coaching staff, not the GM or the player. LaRose doesn't draw up the line combinations and shouldn't be held accountable for ice-time decisions. In terms of what he can control, however, he has shown that he can score in the neighborhood of 15 goals when asked to play that role, plays pretty solid defense, and is generally a positive influence on the team. We can't honestly say there are an abundance of guys in Albany who are prepared to bring all of that to the table, even if they had the opportunity. And even if there were, again it comes back to the coaching staff to scratch and waive players as necessary to move new players into the lineup... it's not the management team's responsibility to force that process via trades.

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Forechecker and penalty killer? Like you can't get those guys for slightly above league minimum as FAs.
Stephane Yelle.

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He's a roadblock to a young player looking to establish himself in the NHL. If Whitney is re-signed, where is the spot opened up for a young player? On the 4th line if Brind'amour retires?
I would assume these guys will all need to come to camp and actually compete for their positions. Again, if that's not happening as it should the blame goes back to the coaching staff for making poor lineup decisions.

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Which means little when the team will not be spending anywhere near the cap next season.

All the more reason to move LaRose. $1.9M with $19.5M of cap space free is quite different than $1.9M with a team playing at the cap floor.
I'm still not clear on how getting rid of LaRose, who would need to be replaced for a savings of, at most, maybe $1M, would have any significant effect on the cap situation. You're talking about dumping a guy who has spent his entire career in the system, so Karmanos can save a bit on the bottom line?


Quote:
Or maybe the team won't be so bad or endure repeated rough stretches if we could use LaRose's money and the money earmarked for Whitney towards acquiring a few defensemen who can play hockey at a level higher than the neverending barrage of bottom-pairing defensemen shoved into Top 4 roles we have endured this season.
Who do you have in mind?

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03-17-2010, 03:48 PM
  #123
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i see the argument that larose could supply some leadership. in the end, kotso and whoever is left of the group we're *****ing about will provide that - as well as hopefully the guy we actually put the c on. gleason shouldnt be underestimated as well. the point is, i think, that we can survive the loss of larose in the leadership dept - especially for a guy like dwyer. he can play that lower line role, have no expectations of offense, yet he skates better, shoots better, has no issue for getting it up every night, and is essentially a dead on replacement for larose and imo a possible improvement. he has a higher ceiling than chad, though we obviously wont be giving much of a chance to achieve it. the money end of it is obvious. larose is expensive to be a 3/4 line guy on a rebuilding team, and kids like boychuk deserve the scoring line role he may take up. we save some notable cash playing dwyer on the 4th and occasional 3rd instead of larose - and we get the same return and possibly more. dwyer seems to be just as effective scoring now as larose is, and he still has some development ahead of him.

i agree larose is capable of better production than this years showing, but if we're picking who is expendable and who is not larose wins imo. he would still likely have takers as he isnt too expensive overall, and a contender might want to give him a shot as a role player for them. trade him for a pick and move on. the second he became a millionaire as a role player he overstayed his welcome for me. good teams replace role players as they become expensive with their home grown depth. we are for the first time in my days following this team capable of accomplishing that. saves money for the d we so desperately need.

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03-17-2010, 03:53 PM
  #124
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Stephane Yelle
Tom Kostopoulos

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03-17-2010, 04:26 PM
  #125
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I think the lockerroom presence is being underrated around here. During an 82-game season, there are going to be ups and downs. Even if you've played the game for years, the toll of game after game will get to players, especially on Olympic years where the schedule's condensed.

As already stated, we've got plenty of guys in the leadership roles. Gleason's a leader, and Staal as well (when he feels like it ). And those two will be important in helping the young players we plan on bringing along within the concept of the game.

Players like LaRose and Whitney, the lockerroom guys, are equally important, especially when we're going to be getting an influx of youth. They're the ones that are going to play pranks during practice, cracking jokes in the lockerroom, and generally keeping the mood light, especially when the stress of the schedule tends to get to the players.

The mental status of the players, especially young ones coming into the league, is just as important as developing their skills on the ice.

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