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Perezhogin slashing incident

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Old
05-01-2004, 10:24 PM
  #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittengineer
In the same situation, Um No. Then I would have to face to consequences of the legal system.
Thats all fine to say from a calm person behind a computer screen. A person involved in a rough athletic game with a lot on the line, who has been cheapshotted by Cleveland all game (which he was). I'm not so sure. Until you have been in that situation you don't know.

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05-01-2004, 10:28 PM
  #452
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I believe that today's hockey players have forgotten (or, perhaps not realized?), that their sticks (slashes, pokes, hooks, spears, hits..) , skates (kicking..), and gloves (punching...) have become weapons instead of tools of the game.
Are young players being taught (reminded?) that these should never be used except for their intended purposes?

(my 2 pennies)

Mink

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Old
05-01-2004, 10:28 PM
  #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean
There is no "North American" jurisprudence. Under the Common Law in Ontario, a hockey stick is not a deadly weapon. Point ą la ligne.
Didnt the game take place in Cleveland?

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05-01-2004, 10:29 PM
  #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean
There is no "North American" jurisprudence. Under the Common Law in Ontario, a hockey stick is not a deadly weapon. Point ą la ligne.

Case and point: the McSorley case. He was accused of assault with a weapon. Not a deadly weapon. He got a conditional sentence. A slap on the wrist.

Here's the NHL history with the courts:

Former NHL tough guy Marty McSorley was charged for hitting then-Vancouver Canuck Donald Brashear with his stick in February 2000.

McSorley, then with the Boston Bruins, was tried in court and received a conditional sentence for assault with a weapon for hitting Brashear in the side of the head. Brashear was knocked out and subsequently missed 20 games with a concussion.

The NHL suspended McSorley for a year, which ended his 17-year playing career. He later surfaced as a minor hockey league coach in the Phoenix Coyotes farm system.

A spokesman for the B.C. Crown prosecutor's office would not comment on the investigation and stressed police will decide if there's enough evidence to forward to the Crown.

The Crown's decision on whether to prosecute will hinge on the same standards as in any criminal case - whether proceeding is in the public interest and whether there's a likelihood of conviction, said Geoff Gaul of the Criminal Justice Branch.

"Irrespective of the nature of the offence or the allegations, it always boils down to that assessment," said Gaul.

But Gaul said venues such as sports games raise consent as a factor.

"On an allegation of assault we have to prove that it was an intentional application of force without consent," he said. "The burden of proof is on the Crown."

McSorley's conviction was a rarity in NHL on-ice assault cases.

Wayne Maki of the St. Louis Blues and Ted Green of the Boston Bruins became the first NHL players hauled into court after a stick-swinging duel at a September 1969 pre-season game in Ottawa.

Green, who suffered a fractured skull, and Maki, who was not injured, were both acquitted of assault charges.

The Bruins' Dave Forbes was charged with aggravated assault after a fight with Minnesota North Stars' Henry Boucha in 1975. The trial ended in a hung jury and the prosecutor then dropped the charges.

Detroit Red Wings' Dan Maloney was acquitted the same year in Toronto of charges of assaulting Leaf defenceman Brian Glennie.

Dave (Tiger) Williams, then with Toronto, was acquitted of assault in 1977 for hitting Penguin Dennis Onchar with his stick in a game at Maple Leaf Gardens.

In 1982, Winnipeg Jets' Jimmy Mann was fined $500 in Winnipeg for leaving the bench and hitting Paul Gardner of the Penguins, breaking his jaw in two places.

North Stars' Dino Ciccarelli was sentenced in 1988 to one day in jail and fined $1,000 for striking Toronto defenceman Luke Richardson several times in the head with his stick.

"You consent to assault when you lace up your skates," Williams said in reacting to the Ciccarelli case. "It's what hockey is all about."

Bertuzzi, from Sudbury, Ont., has been suspended indefinitely pending a hearing at the NHL's office in Toronto on Wednesday morning.

A criminal charge, if laid, could range from simple assault to assault causing bodily harm to aggravated assault.

"For aggravated assault, you're basically looking at where someone wounds or maims or disfigures or endangers the life of someone," said Gaul.

Maximum penalties range from six months for a summary conviction on simple assault to 14 years for aggravated assault.

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Old
05-01-2004, 10:30 PM
  #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittengineer
Didnt the game take place in Cleveland?
Nope it was definetely hamilton, Ontario at Copps Coliseum.

It was game 5, the dogs have home ice advantage.

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05-01-2004, 10:31 PM
  #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania
Thats all fine to say from a calm person behind a computer screen. A person involved in a rough athletic game with a lot on the line, who has been cheapshotted by Cleveland all game (which he was). I'm not so sure. Until you have been in that situation you don't know.
Um, i played football for 4 years in high school, 1 in college. Played hockey for two years in high school, and now play rugby. Been in situations like that and never retaliated by almost killing someone illegally(done it with in the rules though which is how it is meant to be done).

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05-01-2004, 10:33 PM
  #457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittengineer
Didnt the game take place in Cleveland?
If so, my bad. I thought it was in Hamilton.

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05-01-2004, 10:33 PM
  #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania
Nope it was definetely hamilton, Ontario at Copps Coliseum.

It was game 5, the dogs have home ice advantage.
I thought it was in Cleveland based on how they have the box scores written. I dont know Canadian law, but I think under US law it would be assault with a weapon. So you may be right based on Canadian law.

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05-01-2004, 10:34 PM
  #459
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I'm sure there have been players in the NHL or AHL with more on the line, in much bigger games, that have been cheapshotted more than Perezhogin yet did not react like he did. To say that most people would act the same way in his shoes is a slight against all the honorable players in the game who don't resort to barbaric acts.

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05-01-2004, 10:34 PM
  #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean
If so, my bad. I thought it was in Hamilton.
No I def. have to find out where the game was played.

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Old
05-01-2004, 10:36 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by pittengineer
No I def. have to find out where the game was played.
Yea, it was at Copps Coliseum. My bad.

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Old
05-01-2004, 10:39 PM
  #462
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Have there been threads longer than this one on this board? i see that it has over a hundred more post than the "lets get to know on another thread" and that thread has been here everdayday since i joined.

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05-01-2004, 10:56 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by Raider917
Have there been threads longer than this one on this board? i see that it has over a hundred more post than the "lets get to know on another thread" and that thread has been here everdayday since i joined.
I think a few of the "AO vs. Crosby" threads have been pretty long.

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05-01-2004, 11:07 PM
  #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittengineer
Yea, it was at Copps Coliseum. My bad.
But if Perez is able to play next year in AhL when he will be at Hamilton all the people will say BOO at him

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Old
05-01-2004, 11:31 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by thegreatone
But if Perez is able to play next year in AhL when he will be at Hamilton all the people will say BOO at him
I don't think the Hamilton Fans will boo him. If they start, a couple goals will set them straight. On the road he might get booed though.

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05-02-2004, 12:05 AM
  #466
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This may stir some conterversy, but I am going to post it anyway.

I talked to many friends about this incident after it happen and they are all non-hab fans and they said this..."Perezohogin was in the wrong for not being in control of himself and his stick and should be punished with suspension because of what he did, but the other player even though he was hurt severly should also be suspended for his attempt to injure"!

This may not bode over well with non-hab fans or Habs fans, but it is a logical thought. If he never swung his stick at Perezhogin to hit and hurt him then Perezhogin wouldn't have done an instinct action of retaliation and self protection and hit him in return.

Sure Perezhogin wasn't hurt, but even Bob McKenzie said his helmet was clipped by the first swing at him. And he also states that this is not in any way similar to the McSorely or Bertuzzi incidents where the other victims were non-willing combatants or aware of a situation of violance was going to take place. He said that the incident was made by the other player and any suspension on Perezhogin has to take that into consideration to his length of suspension.

I don't think Perezhogin meant to do what he did, he should though so called "Pay the Piper" for his actions. But as much as they make him to be the vilan they should look at what happened to him leading up to the incident in question.

He isn't that type of player and he is an unfortanate person in a situation he deeply regrets that happened and I'm sure is more worried about Stafford's physical and mental condition than his own future...after all he is only human.


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Old
05-02-2004, 12:21 AM
  #467
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this kind of thing is happening at a greater rate now than it ever has. Who is to blame for this? Sure the players must be alway in control, but some of the blame also has to lie with the officials and the coaching staffs.

The Refs nowadays are either very strict or very loose with the penalties. There doesnt seem to be any consistency in officiating.

Whats the average tenure for a coach nowadays? Its a lot shorter now than it was 10-20 yrs ago. THey need to win right away now if they want to keep their jobs so theyre pushing players harder than they used to.

The worst thing about the ugly incidents like these is that the NHL, cause it makes for a bad marketing campaign, completely ignores it and calls it "a part of the game".

It should be interesting if its a major topic or a topic at all in the CBA talks. If they once again overlook it there, then we will no for sure who the real party to blame is.

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Old
05-02-2004, 10:43 AM
  #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania
I don't think the Hamilton Fans will boo him. If they start, a couple goals will set them straight. On the road he might get booed though.
Don't worry about him. He has to take responsibility for his actions. Anyways, he won't be with Hamilton. He'll be in Montreal. On the second line with Ribs and Ryder. Just like I expect Higgins on the 3rd or 4th, with the likes of Begin, Langdon and Ward.

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05-02-2004, 12:17 PM
  #469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean
Don't worry about him. He has to take responsibility for his actions. Anyways, he won't be with Hamilton. He'll be in Montreal. On the second line with Ribs and Ryder. Just like I expect Higgins on the 3rd or 4th, with the likes of Begin, Langdon and Ward.
If there is a lockout, Perezhogin will be with the Bulldogs to start the season, whenever that season happens to begin for him. Either way, he likely won't be playing hockey next October and at least part of November.

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05-02-2004, 01:18 PM
  #470
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Any time you swing your hockey stick like a baseball bat at somebody's head is just horrible. To me this is the worst thing you can do as a hockey player. This is not T-Ball. In my honest opinion this is worse then the Bertuzzi incedent. I have watched the replay about 50 times and is just awful. He used tremendous force in his swing and was looking right at him. It was no acident at all. He should be suspended for the rest of the playoffs and all of next year. I would just like to add that I wonder if this might have gotten as much pulicity if it had have happened in an NHL game. I bet it would be a top story everywhere .

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05-02-2004, 02:10 PM
  #471
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Look, I have just read through most of this thread and a lot of the stuff written here has become irrational. Agreed the optics were very bad as was the result. However, assuming the league applies "criminal law" principles, which is far from certain, then a suspension far short of a one year ban or half year ban will apply.

If you are going to flame this reply, please don't share your analysis of the criminal law if you are not trained in the law and are not a lawyer. Some of the "legal" analysis I have read here is, frankly, embarassing to the writers. I will agree not to engage in any medical analysis in any future posts, as I am not a doctor. OK?

Pre-meditation is a huge factor in the determination of criminal offence and sentencing. The absence of pre-meditation in a criminal law context would, one might presume, result in a shorter suspension than in the McSorley incident, which most resembles the Perzhogin incident. As to the Bertuzzi incident, the factors that resulted in the length of the suspension primarily seemed to be the pre-meditated intent to physically attack Moore and Moore's resulting injuries.

Pre-meditation or the concieving of a "plan" to attack and harm someone is, for example, the difference between first degree murder (25 to life) and second degree murder or manslaughter, with lesser sentences. I think we can all agree that Perezhogin did not develop and execute a plan to attack and harm Stafford in advance of the act. Thus his act was not pre-meditated. It was bad insofar as it was way offside the rules of the game, probably the worst stick swinging incident since Ted Green got clubbed. It was also bad as to its effect, but it was not in the same sphere as McSorley and Bertuzzi because of the lack of pre-meditation.

Other factors to be considered and that have been relevant in NHL suspension decisions are the players disciplinary history and current league policy respecting reckless and dangerous use of the stick. The former favours Perezhogin, the latter works against him.

Based on "precedents", albeit in a different league with different decision makers, it would be reasonable to assume that Perezhogin will receive something in the order of the rest of the playoffs and 15-20 games next year. It is also likely that Stafford will receive a shorter suspension for his stick swinging act directed toward Perezhogin, unless the league is concerned with the optics of suspending the injured party.

As to whether an AHL suspension carries over to the NHL, disciplinary actions are a function of the collective bargaining agreements between each league and each players union. Thus the NHL and NHLPA would have to have agreed to the recognition of a suspension in another league for it to apply, as far as I can tell.

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05-02-2004, 02:54 PM
  #472
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Freebooter, what period of time constitutes premeditation ? If a player is knocked down, gets up skates after a guy and el kabongs him, say it takes 10 seconds, at what point in your interpretation does it stop being reactionnary and start being premediatated ? I don't know if you know what I'm asking . I was thinking that the fact that he stood up,half turned and swung is a factor. While that's reactionnary, it's not quite ,bang bang, if you know what I mean .

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05-02-2004, 06:01 PM
  #473
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i think the reactionary term is more common sense than that...

when you are watching the video, count it out to yourself or time the time it takes for perezhogin to react to stafford's stick grazing his back and head... it'll probably be about 1.7-2seconds.

when you account for someone being totally surprised (say we're talking a car accident or some other shocking event where impulses take over) it can take about half a second simply to register what has happened and begin your bodies natural defense reaction (ie starting to turn the steering wheel or slam on the brakes or running away or returning fire, etc). so assume that the hesitation as he gets up is just that... hesitation under mental/physical duress.

that means that he reacted fully in just about 1 second.

try this... fall down, stumble getting up (on ice) and then swing a stick really hard. i'd bet that you couldn't do it in that amount of time thinking about each action as a discrete motion or thought process. that's reactionary.

pre-meditation seems to indicate that enough time has elapsed to rationally formulate a plan of attack... ie, you've taken the time to calm down, created a plan, and then executed it. 1second obviously isn't enough, and the same might even be said for that entire shift... but if he'd clubbed stafford when they were next on the ice, i'd call that premeditated.

that's my understanding of it.

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05-02-2004, 06:23 PM
  #474
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Your response basically answers McPhee's question. While the plan of attack doesn't have to be rational, pre-meditation usually involves an intervening period of time beween one event and another. Thus the last in a chain of events in a determinable sequence of time is not seen to be pre-meditative, and thus "less" intentional.

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05-02-2004, 11:54 PM
  #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freebooter
Look, I have just read through most of this thread and a lot of the stuff written here has become irrational. Agreed the optics were very bad as was the result. However, assuming the league applies "criminal law" principles, which is far from certain, then a suspension far short of a one year ban or half year ban will apply.

If you are going to flame this reply, please don't share your analysis of the criminal law if you are not trained in the law and are not a lawyer. Some of the "legal" analysis I have read here is, frankly, embarassing to the writers. I will agree not to engage in any medical analysis in any future posts, as I am not a doctor. OK?

Pre-meditation is a huge factor in the determination of criminal offence and sentencing. The absence of pre-meditation in a criminal law context would, one might presume, result in a shorter suspension than in the McSorley incident, which most resembles the Perzhogin incident. As to the Bertuzzi incident, the factors that resulted in the length of the suspension primarily seemed to be the pre-meditated intent to physically attack Moore and Moore's resulting injuries.

Pre-meditation or the concieving of a "plan" to attack and harm someone is, for example, the difference between first degree murder (25 to life) and second degree murder or manslaughter, with lesser sentences. I think we can all agree that Perezhogin did not develop and execute a plan to attack and harm Stafford in advance of the act. Thus his act was not pre-meditated. It was bad insofar as it was way offside the rules of the game, probably the worst stick swinging incident since Ted Green got clubbed. It was also bad as to its effect, but it was not in the same sphere as McSorley and Bertuzzi because of the lack of pre-meditation.

Other factors to be considered and that have been relevant in NHL suspension decisions are the players disciplinary history and current league policy respecting reckless and dangerous use of the stick. The former favours Perezhogin, the latter works against him.

Based on "precedents", albeit in a different league with different decision makers, it would be reasonable to assume that Perezhogin will receive something in the order of the rest of the playoffs and 15-20 games next year. It is also likely that Stafford will receive a shorter suspension for his stick swinging act directed toward Perezhogin, unless the league is concerned with the optics of suspending the injured party.

As to whether an AHL suspension carries over to the NHL, disciplinary actions are a function of the collective bargaining agreements between each league and each players union. Thus the NHL and NHLPA would have to have agreed to the recognition of a suspension in another league for it to apply, as far as I can tell.
Who invited you? You are actually making sense while all others around are losing theres!!! LOL

Seriously, good post.

I suppose we throw Perez's actions in with road rage, eh? J/K On the heels of Bertuzzi-Moore, me thinks there will be an element of "optics" in the decision ... to send a message of what is and is not tolerable in the game ... premeditated or otherwise.

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