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Holland hasn't given up on getting hudler back

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Old
03-21-2010, 01:06 PM
  #51
HockeyinHD
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Really? Really? The guy has a $4mm cap hit, centers the third line, has the potential to become a bonafide contender for the Selke (finished 30th last year at the ripe old age of 21) and oh, by the way has potted 20+ goals three of the past four seasons.
He's overpaid and generally overrated.

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03-21-2010, 04:20 PM
  #52
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So... it hasn't happened yet? Ah.

Like I said, get back to me when Holland actually, you know, gets on a plane.





Why don't we see how many games Hudler actually makes that 2.8 mil a year in Detroit before you start patting yourself on the back.

Just admit that your version of things doesn't match up with Holland's. I don't need to get back to you when Holland's plane lands because Holland was the guy saying he was going, and that he still plans on going once he hears from Hudlum.

No idea why you're arguing something that's in print, direct quote of Kenneth.

The last sentence has nothing to do with anything. That's figure is attached to Hudler, the Wings want him here, and the only reason he's not here is because of the KHL. It's a fact, not an opinion.

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03-21-2010, 04:55 PM
  #53
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Just admit that your version of things doesn't match up with Holland's.
That seems obvious, doesn't it? I wasn't a big fan of the Franzen or Cleary deals, so it's not like having a dissenting opinion from Holland is something that's never happened.

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I don't need to get back to you when Holland's plane lands because Holland was the guy saying he was going, and that he still plans on going once he hears from Hudlum.

No idea why you're arguing something that's in print, direct quote of Kenneth.
You mean an NHL GM actually said something? Well heck, if a GM says something, by all means take it immediately to the bank.

In other words, get back to me when he actually gets on the plane.

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The last sentence has nothing to do with anything. That's figure is attached to Hudler, the Wings want him here, and the only reason he's not here is because of the KHL. It's a fact, not an opinion.
It's a presumption, not a fact. Really, do you think that if/when Hudler comes back to Detroit and he hasn't improved that Babcock and Holland are going to keep him around for 2 years at 2.8 per? Really? To have a guy play 10 minutes a night ES and 3:30 a night on the PP? When for another 1.2-1.7 mil they could get a legit difference maker in the top 6 instead?

Surely you jest.

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03-21-2010, 05:08 PM
  #54
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I agree. I suppose I simply question how much improvment Hudler's seeing on the things that kept him out of Detroit's top 6 in the KHL, while the guys who have been here in Detroit throughout have had the ability to impress the guy who will be making the line combos.



Always possible. Then again, top 6 spots have gone to Hudler by default before and he was passed up. Let's put it this way, even if Cleary falls out of the top 6, and I by no means think that's in any kind of current danger of happening, the Wings will still have D, Z, Franzen, Homer and Fil all ahead of Hudler. If the team brings back Bert, something which appears at least better than 50% of happening, I'm pretty sure he'd be ahead of Hudler on the depth chart too.

And if Cleary's offensive game picks up at all, he'd be back in the top 6 in like 2 tenths of a second.



I mostly agree. Hudler's best and brightest chance to solidify himself as a top 6 guy in Detroit was this year. For valid reasons he elected to chase a paycheck instead, but in doing so he's made his road to a top 6 spot in Detroit that much more difficult to navigate. Personally, I think he would be an idiot to leave that 5 million bucks on the table and come back to the NHL, unless he has some kind of assurance from Holland that he'd be traded. Even then, man, that would be a tough call.

If he waits until 2011-12 to come back he absolutely runs the risk of falling behind a sharply-rising prospect, but for 5 million bucks I think you take that risk.
For sure for the 5 million bucks you likely take that risk and that for sure played a major part in his decision to leave in the first place. If Hudler wants a long term contract at a good pay in the NHL though, he may think that next season in Detroit is his best chance to get the minutes to earn that contract. Regardless, that actually depends on whether Hudler wants to be in the NHL long-term or maybe he is planning to just make big bucks in the KHL for the next 6-8 years.

If he does want to return to the NHL for the long run, coming back next season does seem like the better chance for him to get ice time and try to earn a long term contract for the future on the wings, as opposed to finishing his last year and then coming back to Detroit to honor his 2 year contract, unless like you mentioned, he and Holland agree that a trade would be the best thing for his career in the NHL.

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03-21-2010, 05:23 PM
  #55
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That seems obvious, doesn't it? I wasn't a big fan of the Franzen or Cleary deals, so it's not like having a dissenting opinion from Holland is something that's never happened.

You mean an NHL GM actually said something? Well heck, if a GM says something, by all means take it immediately to the bank.

In other words, get back to me when he actually gets on the plane.

It's a presumption, not a fact. Really, do you think that if/when Hudler comes back to Detroit and he hasn't improved that Babcock and Holland are going to keep him around for 2 years at 2.8 per? Really? To have a guy play 10 minutes a night ES and 3:30 a night on the PP? When for another 1.2-1.7 mil they could get a legit difference maker in the top 6 instead?

Surely you jest.

I honestly have NO idea what the heck you're trying to argue here.


Holland says he wants to talk Huds into coming back next year. Babs wants him back too. There are direct quotes from Holland and Hudler.

What is your point?

IF Hudler comes back, his cap hit will be: $2.8m.

Will they keep him for two years? Well, let's see if he can perform. They want him back.

Here's the thing. I'm pretty sure you and I were in agreement on the Franzen, Z, and Hudler values. I don't like Fil's deal as much, and you don't like Cleary's, but we're not that far apart. Hudler was supposed to prove he was worth that money. When he comes back, he has at least a year to prove it. I'm not arguing what will happen after that, but I "hope" he can earn it.

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03-21-2010, 06:30 PM
  #56
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I honestly have NO idea what the heck you're trying to argue here.


Holland says he wants to talk Huds into coming back next year. Babs wants him back too. There are direct quotes from Holland and Hudler.

What is your point?
That as of right now the second round pick the Wings used on Jiri Hudler is exactly worthless, so of course they want Hudler back. A) He's an NHL player, B) Hey, maybe he'll be good enough to play in the top 6 when he returns, and C) Until he comes back the Wings can't find out if B is true, and until they find that out they don't know if they need to move him or if they can count on him for something.

What good is Hudler doing the Wings in Russia? None at all.

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Hudler was supposed to prove he was worth that money. When he comes back, he has at least a year to prove it. I'm not arguing what will happen after that, but I "hope" he can earn it.
I don't think Hudler has a year to prove it. If Hudler comes back and is the same guy as when he left, I think he's going to get moved at that deadline, if not sooner. Assuming for the moment he doesn't return until 2011-12, he's going to be a 28 year old man. He will be what he is.

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03-21-2010, 07:05 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post


It's a presumption, not a fact. Really, do you think that if/when Hudler comes back to Detroit and he hasn't improved that Babcock and Holland are going to keep him around for 2 years at 2.8 per? Really? To have a guy play 10 minutes a night ES and 3:30 a night on the PP? When for another 1.2-1.7 mil they could get a legit difference maker in the top 6 instead?

Surely you jest.
holland has this love affair with hudler for some reason, like with osgood. if there's one flaw holland has is that he lets friendship sometimes get in the way of making the best decisions for his hockey club. (i.e. osgood when he signed him after the lockout because they are close friends or even bertuzzi when he signed him this year and u know holland is gonna offer him a contract for next season too). he should of never signed osgood but he decided to give him a second chance cuz they are close friends. holland and the wings got lucky in that osgood performed.

so i do think holland will keep hudler for the two years even if hudler doesnt deserve it

that's my 2 cents

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03-21-2010, 07:10 PM
  #58
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That as of right now the second round pick the Wings used on Jiri Hudler is exactly worthless, so of course they want Hudler back. A) He's an NHL player, B) Hey, maybe he'll be good enough to play in the top 6 when he returns, and C) Until he comes back the Wings can't find out if B is true, and until they find that out they don't know if they need to move him or if they can count on him for something.

What good is Hudler doing the Wings in Russia? None at all.



I don't think Hudler has a year to prove it. If Hudler comes back and is the same guy as when he left, I think he's going to get moved at that deadline, if not sooner. Assuming for the moment he doesn't return until 2011-12, he's going to be a 28 year old man. He will be what he is.

And you might recall that I argued there was no reason to keep Hudler, let alone pay him $3m/yr, if Babs was just going to use him as a third liner with some 2nd unit PP minutes. Just like I didn't think Filppula garnered $3m/yr to be a third line, shutdown center. Top six winger, or the 2nd center? Sure, give him the spot and let him show he should be there.

You do not pay third and fourth liners that kind of coin.

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03-21-2010, 07:51 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by wings1421 View Post
holland has this love affair with hudler for some reason, like with osgood. if there's one flaw holland has is that he lets friendship sometimes get in the way of making the best decisions for his hockey club. (i.e. osgood when he signed him after the lockout because they are close friends or even bertuzzi when he signed him this year and u know holland is gonna offer him a contract for next season too). he should of never signed osgood but he decided to give him a second chance cuz they are close friends. holland and the wings got lucky in that osgood performed.

so i do think holland will keep hudler for the two years even if hudler doesnt deserve it

that's my 2 cents
I think Holland likes certain players because of the types of players they are. Or the experience they have. Or the skills they possess. Or the needs of the team. Holland has his preferences and biases, like every human being, but I think "being friends" is a virtually non-existent factor.

I agree that if Hudler comes back, Holland will honor both years of his contract (or, at the very least, through the trade deadline of year 2), but it will have nothing to do with friendship.

The idea that they shouldn't have signed Osgood, but did because him and Holland are friends, and then got lucky when he actually performed is.... absurd.

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03-21-2010, 08:13 PM
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I don't think Hudler has a year to prove it. If Hudler comes back and is the same guy as when he left, I think he's going to get moved at that deadline, if not sooner. Assuming for the moment he doesn't return until 2011-12, he's going to be a 28 year old man. He will be what he is.
Unless Hudler has regressed he'll be looking at an extension by year 2.

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03-21-2010, 08:15 PM
  #61
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Unless Hudler has regressed he'll be looking at an extension by year 2.

Do you believe Babcock and Holland valuate players in the same way?

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03-21-2010, 08:17 PM
  #62
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Unless Hudler has regressed he'll be looking at an extension by year 2.
If Hudler wants that extension (with a nice long term deal and good value) I think it has to be in his best interest to come back for next season though. If he doesn't come back now, Holland might bring in another top 6 winger in the coming offseason or maybe even the following offseason, plus some of our prospects might take big strides in development (ie. Tatar, Mursak, etc.) that if he waits one more year he might not get the ice time he wants (with Babs as coach and new top 6 wingers potentially signed he might end up simply being a 2nd pp unit specialist again) and as much opportunity on a scoring line. Hopefully Hudler realizes that and decides that another year of 5 million dollars versus coming back for one year at 2.8 million to play his butt off and get a nice 4 or 5 year deal has more value in the long run.

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03-21-2010, 08:35 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by wings1421 View Post
holland has this love affair with hudler for some reason, like with osgood. if there's one flaw holland has is that he lets friendship sometimes get in the way of making the best decisions for his hockey club. (i.e. osgood when he signed him after the lockout because they are close friends or even bertuzzi when he signed him this year and u know holland is gonna offer him a contract for next season too). he should of never signed osgood but he decided to give him a second chance cuz they are close friends. holland and the wings got lucky in that osgood performed.

so i do think holland will keep hudler for the two years even if hudler doesnt deserve it

that's my 2 cents
I don't know - Osgood is in all likelihood a Hall of Fame goaltender and was instrumental in the last two playoff runs. Putting him in the same boat as Bert (brought in this year strictly as a guy who could help replace lost goals) or Hudler (who didn't want to stay in Detroit) doesn't make a lot of sense IMO.

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03-21-2010, 08:48 PM
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Do you believe Babcock and Holland valuate players in the same way?
No. But both know that this team needs the skills that Hudler provides. As Kenny has shown many a time now the Miller, Eaves, Cleary, Sammy types are going to be there to be found. Hudler's skillset is a bit trickier to find in the bargain bin.

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03-21-2010, 09:03 PM
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Hudler is a guy that I think can earn that $2.8m on the third line because, first, he'll probably still produce points there and, second, he'll instantly step in as a powerplay fixture and insure we have two effective powerplays. So I don't really care where he plays.

As for Jordan Staal, yeah, might be overpaid/overrated but he's also been a thorn in our sides more often than not.

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03-21-2010, 09:11 PM
  #66
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And you might recall that I argued there was no reason to keep Hudler, let alone pay him $3m/yr, if Babs was just going to use him as a third liner with some 2nd unit PP minutes. Just like I didn't think Filppula garnered $3m/yr to be a third line, shutdown center. Top six winger, or the 2nd center? Sure, give him the spot and let him show he should be there.
And he's been in the top 6 before. And struggled.

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You do not pay third and fourth liners that kind of coin.
And they won't. Not for long.

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03-21-2010, 09:13 PM
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Unless Hudler has regressed he'll be looking at an extension by year 2.
Doubtful, really.

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03-21-2010, 09:21 PM
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Doubtful, really.
They already gave him one based on what he'd already shown. So again, unless he got worse, he'll be getting another one.

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03-21-2010, 09:23 PM
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Hudler is a guy that I think can earn that $2.8m on the third line because, first, he'll probably still produce points there and, second, he'll instantly step in as a powerplay fixture and insure we have two effective powerplays. So I don't really care where he plays.
Just to point this out, but adding Hudler to this years team would have cost probably two or three roster players, which would be replaced with 750k plugs. So, it's not like having a 2.8 guy on the third or fourth line doesn't come with some significant and immediate downsides.

Conversely, for only 1.2 - 1.7 mil more, rather than spending 2.8 on a guy that can't play in a typically-staffed top 6, Detroit could acquire a 4-4.5 million dollar UFA forward who should actually not only be able to play in the top 6 legitimately, but be able to play in at least one other phase of the game, if not all three.

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03-21-2010, 09:27 PM
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They already gave him one based on what he'd already shown.
They gave him one/accepted the arbitrator's award to prevent them losing him for nothing, and because Hudler has shown enough to warrant yet another chance to establish himself as a more complete player.

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So again, unless he got worse, he'll be getting another one.
And again, unless he improves that is doubtful. I highly doubt Detroit is going to pay 2.8 mil to a guy they can't play in the top 6. So, unless Hudler demonstrates he can play in the top 6 in Detroit by some means other than waiting for the guys in front of him to get hurt it's very unlikely he'll collect even all of the first half of his award from the Wings.

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03-21-2010, 09:42 PM
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They gave him one/accepted the arbitrator's award [B]to prevent them losing him for nothing, and because Hudler has shown enough to warrant yet another chance to establish himself as a more complete player.

And again, unless he improves that is doubtful. I highly doubt Detroit is going to pay 2.8 mil to a guy they can't play in the top 6. So, unless Hudler demonstrates he can play in the top 6 in Detroit by some means other than waiting for the guys in front of him to get hurt it's very unlikely he'll collect even all of the first half of his award from the Wings.
*shrug*

Filppula, Cleary, Hudler, Holmstrom

All the same in overall impact. They just go about it and specialize in different things. And all need support from superior players when in the top 6.

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03-21-2010, 10:05 PM
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When for another 1.2-1.7 mil they could get a legit difference maker in the top 6 instead?
Who? A legit difference maker that cheap, I find that hard to believe unless we have different definitions of legit.


And Hudler's contract is more a supply/demand thing. If the Red Wings were scoring goals like they were last year, I don't think we would even bother with Hudler. But this season our one problem is scoring goals, and maybe Hudler is overpaid, it is better than having no scoring depth at all.

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03-21-2010, 10:14 PM
  #73
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*shrug*

Filppula, Cleary, Hudler, Holmstrom

All the same in overall impact. They just go about it and specialize in different things. And all need support from superior players when in the top 6.
Exactly. The only "complete" forwards are Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Maybe Franzen. So it's not like being "complete" is a death sentence on the top-6

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03-21-2010, 10:28 PM
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Just to point this out, but adding Hudler to this years team would have cost probably two or three roster players, which would be replaced with 750k plugs. So, it's not like having a 2.8 guy on the third or fourth line doesn't come with some significant and immediate downsides.

Conversely, for only 1.2 - 1.7 mil more, rather than spending 2.8 on a guy that can't play in a typically-staffed top 6, Detroit could acquire a 4-4.5 million dollar UFA forward who should actually not only be able to play in the top 6 legitimately, but be able to play in at least one other phase of the game, if not all three.
But who would you want to spend 4-4.5 million on out of the UFA crop coming out? For the coming season, his contract won't be so bad cause we will likely still have enough space to keep Eaves and Miller. Although Frolov does sound intriguing, if we get him at 4.5 million I'm not sure if he would actually be a better value than Hudler at 2.8 million. Other UFAs such as Tanguay, Prospal, Afinogenov would be ok, but I don't think any of them would bring significantly more to the table than Hudler. The one UFA who I would to try and take a stab at if hopefully the team chokes in the first round again, is Patrick Marleau. If they are upset in the first round again, maybe Marleau decides on a change of scenery and would consider taking a smaller contract (4 yrs at 20 million) to get a legit shot at the cup without all the pressure there is in San Jose. Of course this will probably not happen, but if San Jose is upset and he hits the market I think Holland has to try. Marleau's speed would be deadly on Datsyuk's wing.

Aside from Marleau though, the UFA crop doesn't seem that great. On the RFA side though, I'd love to poach Bobby Ryan from the Ducks, but they got a tonne of cap space so any reasonable deal we'd try and offer him would easily be matched. Dollar wise for the coming season, Hudler might end up being a better value than most. If he waits til that KHL deal is up though, I think its going to be a lot tougher for Hudler in Detroit.

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03-21-2010, 10:55 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Just to point this out, but adding Hudler to this years team would have cost probably two or three roster players, which would be replaced with 750k plugs. So, it's not like having a 2.8 guy on the third or fourth line doesn't come with some significant and immediate downsides.

Conversely, for only 1.2 - 1.7 mil more, rather than spending 2.8 on a guy that can't play in a typically-staffed top 6, Detroit could acquire a 4-4.5 million dollar UFA forward who should actually not only be able to play in the top 6 legitimately, but be able to play in at least one other phase of the game, if not all three.

Well, we might have went without Bertuzzi and Williams this year. I think I would have bit that bullet.

As for who we could go after during the summer, I think you're being optimistic with that $4-4.5m number and the type of player we could land. Are you looking at Tanguay (who I think you've mentioned before)? Then I hope to hell we're not offering him anything more than we'd offer Hudler. If you're looking at Frolov, I think you're looking at over $5m.

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