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Old
04-16-2010, 01:50 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by bullocks View Post
Sammy didn't even play with the Sedins for most of the year. So that argument really has no relevance to his successful season.
Both his goals yesterday came with assists from a Sedin, so it really does have relevance when someone tries to say that the Wings are missing him right now.

And it's been well-chronicled that most of his production this season came when he was playing with the Sedins. He played more without them but he scored way more with them.

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04-16-2010, 01:51 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by bullocks View Post
Sammy didn't even play with the Sedins for most of the year. So that argument really has no relevance to his successful season.
Isn't that what we'd want though? I'd love for Bertuzzi or Filppula or Holmstrom or whomever to 'ride the coat tails' of Datsyuk and Z and get two goals tonight. Whatever it takes.

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04-16-2010, 01:52 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Both his goals yesterday came with assists from a Sedin, so it really does have relevance when someone tries to say that the Wings are missing him right now.

And it's been well-chronicled that most of his production this season came when he was playing with the Sedins. He played more without them but he scored way more with them.
Does someone really need to go back and list all of the big goals Samuelsson scored while he was here? Saying he was overpriced for the Wings is one thing, saying they don't miss him is completely false.

And no, you've already been proven incorrect about where the majority of his production came from.

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04-16-2010, 01:57 PM
  #104
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Including last night's game Sammy has 37 points and is +17 over the previous 5 playoff seasons.

For Langer you need to go all the way back to 1999-2000 for him to crack 37 playoff points. And he's a combined -7 during playoff hockey.

So if we're talking playoffs [using the Jim Mora tone] then Sammy is a much more effective player than Lang.

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04-16-2010, 02:15 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Does someone really need to go back and list all of the big goals Samuelsson scored while he was here? Saying he was overpriced for the Wings is one thing, saying they don't miss him is completely false.

And no, you've already been proven incorrect about where the majority of his production came from.
Sammy's water carriers can lie and ignore reality all you want. (And you are doing both)

It doesn't change the fact that when he was with the Wings, he HAD to play with Zetterberg or he was absolutely useless. And when he was playing with Zetterberg, he was still useless a large portion of the time.

In Vancouver he produces a lot when he plays with the Sedins, like just about anybody would. When he's not with the Sedins his output plummets, even though Kesler is still a good player to play with.

Dazzle me with his "big-time clutch goals". I'm dying to see the list. He had 13 goals in 69 playoff games as a Wing.

Cleary is a pariah on these boards and he has 15 goals in 64 playoff games as a Wing.
Filppula is on every poster's trading block and he has 11 goals and a pile of assists in 64 playoff games as a Wing.
Lazy Ass Robert Lang had 9 goals in 36 playoff games as a Wing and they dropped him fast.
Hudler had 9 goals the last 2 playoffs playing about 12 minutes a night on the 4th line.

If Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen start scoring, nobody is going to bring up this ridiculous nonsense about Samuelsson anymore. The role players are fine, it's the stars that have to pull their weight.

Or are you suggesting that Sammy would have stopped Phoenix from scoring 3 straight PPGs? Ridiculous garbage, all this crap about Samuelsson.

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04-16-2010, 02:25 PM
  #106
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I'd just like to say.... FU Hudler!

That is all. Carry on.

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04-16-2010, 02:50 PM
  #107
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He only plays with the Sedins on PPs.. Very occasionally regular strength. That only happens when Burrows PKs..

He's stuck playing with a 200lb piece of dead weight right now - Pavol Demitra..

Sammy and Kesler both have done basically nothing since they got stuck with Demitra..

Pavol Cancer Demitra makes our 2nd line pretty much useless.

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04-16-2010, 03:00 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Sammy's water carriers can lie and ignore reality all you want. (And you are doing both)
Who's the one lying? Samuelsson produced more than 60% of his points playing without a Sedin on his line.

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Dazzle me with his "big-time clutch goals". I'm dying to see the list. He had 13 goals in 69 playoff games as a Wing.
Game 6 against the Sharks in '07. Leading the Wings in goals in the Finals in '08 and his OT winner against Chicago to name a few. What exactly do you want? For a guy who's been tagged 'useless' and for a guy who was paid 1.2m/yr he came up HUGE. You can deny the actual reality all you want.

Quote:
Cleary is a pariah on these boards and he has 15 goals in 64 playoff games as a Wing.
Filppula is on every poster's trading block and he has 11 goals and a pile of assists in 64 playoff games as a Wing.
Lazy Ass Robert Lang had 9 goals in 36 playoff games as a Wing and they dropped him fast.
Hudler had 9 goals the last 2 playoffs playing about 12 minutes a night on the 4th line.
And?

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If Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen start scoring, nobody is going to bring up this ridiculous nonsense about Samuelsson anymore. The role players are fine, it's the stars that have to pull their weight.
Cool. But it would be nice to have a Samuelsson until then. Look, his 3rd year put him out of the Wings price range, no big deal. No one is blasting Holland right now because Samuelsson is gone but not at least acknowledging that he brought it every playoffs is just overcompensating.

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Or are you suggesting that Sammy would have stopped Phoenix from scoring 3 straight PPGs? Ridiculous garbage, all this crap about Samuelsson.
Yeah sarcasto, that's exactly what I'm saying.

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04-16-2010, 03:03 PM
  #109
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I think it is just a case of Sammy fitting perfectly with Vancouver - round peg in a round hole, where he was a round peg in a square hole for detroit.

The problem we sometimes have with the Sedin line - they *love* to cycle the puck over and over and over. They'll do it all day if you let them waiting for that 'white whale' perfect scoring chance. The reason Sammy is so beautiful to us Canuck fans (and after last night's game many of us are composing sonnets about him) is he stops the fanciness and just BLASTS the puck at the goalie. Yes, he often hits the goalie square in the chest. For some teams that would be a bad thing, but for us, when the puck bounces off the goalie's chest there is often a Canuck waiting to put the glorious rebounds Sammy creates into the net. On top of that, when he is in close he has a gorgeous shot. He knows where to be and when to get great scoring chances.

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04-16-2010, 03:40 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Who's the one lying? Samuelsson produced more than 60% of his points playing without a Sedin on his line.
Samuelsson played a seven-game stretch in March with the Sedins in which he potted 9 goals and 4 assists. Take those numbers off his yearly total and what do you get?

You get numbers that look exactly like most of his Red Wing years, only at more than twice the price. 2.5 mil a year for 21 goals and 19 assists.

And after they swapped Burrows back onto the Sedins' line, Samuelsson went scoreless for the rest of the regular season.

Quote:
Game 6 against the Sharks in '07. Leading the Wings in goals in the Finals in '08 and his OT winner against Chicago to name a few. What exactly do you want? For a guy who's been tagged 'useless' and for a guy who was paid 1.2m/yr he came up HUGE. You can deny the actual reality all you want.
He is making $2.5 mil a year on a three year deal.

And $2.5 mil a year is too much to pay a guy that doesn't produce if he's not strapped to the back of your best scorer.

Also, Abdelkader had two 3rd period goals in the first 2 games of the finals last season - is anybody calling him "clutch"?

Robert Lang scored a big game-tying goal against San Jose in 07 and the Wings ended up winning in OT. A lot of folks on this board said they HAD to sign him back because he's so clutch, and they couldn't possibly live without his clutchiness.

They didn't re-sign him and the Wings won the Cup the next year without him. Would have won last year if they hadn't pooped the bed in games 6 and 7, a condition that would not have been helped if Lang were still around. They were a better team without him despite the fact that he scored a clutch goal for them the year before.

That's what good teams do. Someone else steps up when a player's contract outgrows their usefulness and they leave town.

Quote:
Cool. But it would be nice to have a Samuelsson until then. Look, his 3rd year put him out of the Wings price range, no big deal. No one is blasting Holland right now because Samuelsson is gone but not at least acknowledging that he brought it every playoffs is just overcompensating.
There are plenty of people blasting the Samuelsson decision. It's the reason this thread was created.

He didn't bring anything in the playoffs that the Wings don't have the ability to replace with the current roster. The scorers need to score, and the PKers need to PK, and guys like Miller and Helm and Eaves need to keep doing their thing and chipping in with occasional supplemental offense.

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04-16-2010, 05:27 PM
  #111
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Sounds to me like someones bitter!!!

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04-16-2010, 05:44 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Isn't that what we'd want though? I'd love for Bertuzzi or Filppula or Holmstrom or whomever to 'ride the coat tails' of Datsyuk and Z and get two goals tonight. Whatever it takes.

Yet he never had the luck he did whilst here.

I do think that Babs' system had something to do with it. He likes having guys with very specific roles. One thing he did say, which seems to work for Sammy in Vancouver, is that Sammy should shoot more. Babs always says he wanted Sammy to shoot more often, that that was his job. If he did shoot more, Babs said he felt Sammy would be a better player (at least production-wise). So somehow Sammy wasn't shooting as much as Babs wanted him to shoot?

(Could check his shots on goal, maybe?)

Personally, I do think that Sammy was a far better player after leaving Detroit than he was when he got here. His experience here helped solidify and round him out. He always was streaky, and I do recall that he was pretty clutch in the playoffs. We'd go for days cursing his very existence, then the big day would come and Sammy would be the one to score.

Only thing is he never was quite as prolific with it here as he was this past year. Maybe he had greater defensive responsibilities here. I think all the Wings [key] players, excepting Homer perhaps, might be higher scorers for other teams.

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04-16-2010, 05:53 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think all the Wings [key] players, excepting Homer perhaps, might be higher scorers for other teams.
That's probably true, but it's nothing new. That has dated back to the Bowman years. Fedorov and Yzerman probably would have a few hundred more points (and less success) on other teams.

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04-17-2010, 12:40 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Samuelsson played a seven-game stretch in March with the Sedins in which he potted 9 goals and 4 assists. Take those numbers off his yearly total and what do you get?

You get numbers that look exactly like most of his Red Wing years, only at more than twice the price. 2.5 mil a year for 21 goals and 19 assists.

And after they swapped Burrows back onto the Sedins' line, Samuelsson went scoreless for the rest of the regular season.


He is making $2.5 mil a year on a three year deal.

And $2.5 mil a year is too much to pay a guy that doesn't produce if he's not strapped to the back of your best scorer.

Also, Abdelkader had two 3rd period goals in the first 2 games of the finals last season - is anybody calling him "clutch"?

Robert Lang scored a big game-tying goal against San Jose in 07 and the Wings ended up winning in OT. A lot of folks on this board said they HAD to sign him back because he's so clutch, and they couldn't possibly live without his clutchiness.

They didn't re-sign him and the Wings won the Cup the next year without him. Would have won last year if they hadn't pooped the bed in games 6 and 7, a condition that would not have been helped if Lang were still around. They were a better team without him despite the fact that he scored a clutch goal for them the year before.

That's what good teams do. Someone else steps up when a player's contract outgrows their usefulness and they leave town.



There are plenty of people blasting the Samuelsson decision. It's the reason this thread was created.

He didn't bring anything in the playoffs that the Wings don't have the ability to replace with the current roster. The scorers need to score, and the PKers need to PK, and guys like Miller and Helm and Eaves need to keep doing their thing and chipping in with occasional supplemental offense.
You really hate Sammy dont you? And also, Samuelsson scored 20 goals without the Sedins this year.

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04-17-2010, 08:57 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Samuelsson played a seven-game stretch in March with the Sedins in which he potted 9 goals and 4 assists. Take those numbers off his yearly total and what do you get?

You get numbers that look exactly like most of his Red Wing years, only at more than twice the price. 2.5 mil a year for 21 goals and 19 assists.

And after they swapped Burrows back onto the Sedins' line, Samuelsson went scoreless for the rest of the regular season.



He is making $2.5 mil a year on a three year deal.

And $2.5 mil a year is too much to pay a guy that doesn't produce if he's not strapped to the back of your best scorer.

Also, Abdelkader had two 3rd period goals in the first 2 games of the finals last season - is anybody calling him "clutch"?

Robert Lang scored a big game-tying goal against San Jose in 07 and the Wings ended up winning in OT. A lot of folks on this board said they HAD to sign him back because he's so clutch, and they couldn't possibly live without his clutchiness.

They didn't re-sign him and the Wings won the Cup the next year without him. Would have won last year if they hadn't pooped the bed in games 6 and 7, a condition that would not have been helped if Lang were still around. They were a better team without him despite the fact that he scored a clutch goal for them the year before.

That's what good teams do. Someone else steps up when a player's contract outgrows their usefulness and they leave town.



There are plenty of people blasting the Samuelsson decision. It's the reason this thread was created.

He didn't bring anything in the playoffs that the Wings don't have the ability to replace with the current roster. The scorers need to score, and the PKers need to PK, and guys like Miller and Helm and Eaves need to keep doing their thing and chipping in with occasional supplemental offense.
It is moderately amusing watching the lengths to which some people will resort to pretend Detroit couldn't use a player like Samuelsson. At this point I think it's effectively impossible for him to prove detractors like Sarcastro any more definitively out to lunch than he's already done... and yet he persists.

Yes, sure, if you take off a streak of Sammy's that has a lot of goals and assists he'll have fewer goals and assists. He'd also only have played 67 games to compile 21 and 19... and 21 goals would have put him all of two behind Zetterberg. Further, I think deriding a guy who 'doesn't produce when he isn't strapped to the back of high scorers' when he's potting 20+ without high scorers rings a bit hollow.

Also, gee, I wonder if Detroit could have used a forward who could play well with their top-scorers? Maybe yes, right? Who am I kidding... Detroit had Drew Miller to plug in on a second line.

And of course Sammy went scoreless 'for the rest of the regular season'... um, he got hurt on 3/16 and missed nearly a month. Not exactly the most straight-forward, upfront or, ahem, truthful bit of representation there, really.

The misguided histrionics of his critics aside, Sammy's soundly proven what a few people already knew: At what he was making in Detroit he was a tremendous bargain, and making 2.5 somewhere else is almost certainly a fair price for a player with his skill set.

Could and should Detroit have been the one to pay that fair price? Debatable. There are reasonable arguments to be made on either side of that discussion. Personally I was content that they didn't, but I can certainly see how doing so may have benefited the club, especially in hindsight.

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04-20-2010, 12:23 AM
  #116
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He's got 4 goals now. what the hell is going on? Damnit!! I knew we shouldn't have let him go this year.

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04-20-2010, 02:10 AM
  #117
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I've always wanted him to stay here. It was a mistake to let him walk. Tough I wish him all the best with the Canucks.

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04-20-2010, 02:19 AM
  #118
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To start, yes, hindsight is 20/20 in this discussion right now, but that's the whole point of this isn't it?

I love how the initial comments when he left were that Samuelsson is just a product of Detroit, and now when it shows he wasn't he is a product of good linemates instead and the perfect fit in Vancouver. Gimme a break. Sammy is juggled between lines in Vancouver too, he can go from the Sedin line to the third line from game-to-game. The situation has not been all that different, if u had actually watched Canucks regularly.

Fact remains that he scored 30 goals with missing games, doesn't matter who his linemates were. 30 goals is a benchmark for any player in this league, let alone a player only 6th in TOI by forwards on his team. I don't understand how goals can be turned AGAINST him when playing with better players than usual. And people are still glad to see him out of town at this point? That to me that is denial, whether the salary is $1.2 or $2.5. That he couldn't fit under the cap is fair enough however, but that's another discussion.


Quote:
He didn't bring anything in the playoffs that the Wings don't have the ability to replace with the current roster. The scorers need to score, and the PKers need to PK, and guys like Miller and Helm and Eaves need to keep doing their thing and chipping in with occasional supplemental offense.
I'd love to know what players on the roster that could replace what he would bring at the moment. Who exactly are the "scorers" on the top6 in his price range? Wings have dropped a bunch of guys including Samuelsson and have not replaced them with squat. Barring Franzen goes on one of those amazing tears again, I don't see it.

Goals (games missed aside) for matching top6 players:
Cleary $2,800,000 15 goals(career high 20)
Filppula $3,000,000 11 goals(career high 19)

Bottomline, Detroit could've had a heck of use of another 20 goal scorer right now, let alone 30 and I don't see how that can be argued.


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04-20-2010, 04:17 AM
  #119
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He's extremely streaky, right now he's in the midst of a purple patch. He'll cool down.

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04-20-2010, 05:55 AM
  #120
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To start, yes, hindsight is 20/20 in this discussion right now, but that's the whole point of this isn't it?

I love how the initial comments when he left were that Samuelsson is just a product of Detroit, and now when it shows he wasn't he is a product of good linemates instead and the perfect fit in Vancouver. Gimme a break. Sammy is juggled between lines in Vancouver too, he can go from the Sedin line to the third line from game-to-game. The situation has not been all that different, if u had actually watched Canucks regularly.

Fact remains that he scored 30 goals with missing games, doesn't matter who his linemates were. 30 goals is a benchmark for any player in this league, let alone a player only 6th in TOI by forwards on his team. I don't understand how goals can be turned AGAINST him when playing with better players than usual. And people are still glad to see him out of town at this point? That to me that is denial, whether the salary is $1.2 or $2.5. That he couldn't fit under the cap is fair enough however, but that's another discussion.




I'd love to know what players on the roster that could replace what he would bring at the moment. Who exactly are the "scorers" on the top6 in his price range? Wings have dropped a bunch of guys including Samuelsson and have not replaced them with squat. Barring Franzen goes on one of those amazing tears again, I don't see it.

Goals (games missed aside) for matching top6 players:
Cleary $2,800,000 15 goals(career high 20)
Filppula $3,000,000 11 goals(career high 19)

Bottomline, Detroit could've had a heck of use of another 20 goal scorer right now, let alone 30 and I don't see how that can be argued.
Okay, so which of the guys with contracts do you dump? I think Cleary has/had a limited NTC. Filppula was re-signed a year earlier.


Hudler was an RFA. Do the Wings just not qualify him?

Point is they would have to trade a player with a contract (assuming that could be done), dump an RFA, or let Sammy walk. They did not have the cap room.

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04-20-2010, 08:33 AM
  #121
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Okay, so which of the guys with contracts do you dump? I think Cleary has/had a limited NTC. Filppula was re-signed a year earlier.


Hudler was an RFA. Do the Wings just not qualify him?

Point is they would have to trade a player with a contract (assuming that could be done), dump an RFA, or let Sammy walk. They did not have the cap room.
The messageboard special. Don't sign Williams, trade/waive Draper & Maltby -- deport Osgood (because we all know he wouldn't be good this year! ) and then you have plenty of cap room for Samuelsson.

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04-20-2010, 08:48 AM
  #122
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The messageboard special. Don't sign Williams, trade/waive Draper & Maltby -- deport Osgood (because we all know he wouldn't be good this year! ) and then you have plenty of cap room for Samuelsson.
This organziation is all about loyalty

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04-20-2010, 08:59 AM
  #123
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The messageboard special. Don't sign Williams, trade/waive Draper & Maltby -- deport Osgood (because we all know he wouldn't be good this year! ) and then you have plenty of cap room for Samuelsson.
If we had brought Sammy back for 2.25-2.5M per year, we just would have been less active in the free agent market. That means no Williams and no Bertuzzi. Signing Eaves would still have been possible, though, and we would have had the cap space to either carry Abdelkader all season, or possibly May. Someone cheap like that.

So, the question is which is better - Sammy + 500k player, or Bert + Williams? I'll take door #1.

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04-20-2010, 09:41 AM
  #124
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need more Samuelsson. I'm surprised they didn't resign him, but I've already talked about that.

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04-20-2010, 09:42 AM
  #125
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Hindsight is 20/20. There was a lot of stuff up in the air when Samuelsson signed with the Canucks so firstly we don't know whether the Wings could have made an offer as good as the Canucks offer at the time even if they had wanted to do so.

Secondly, Samuelsson was 32 and had found his level as a 40 points guy. I can't blame the Wings for thinking they can get that production without committing 7.5 million dollars. In fact, they committed 1.5 million to Bertuzzi and he did essentially replicate Samuelsson's production in Detroit.

Not like it's predictable that Samuelsson at 33 would become a 30 goal scorer and we'll never know whether it would have happened had he stayed with the Wings either. Nor do we know if he will repeat that performance in the remaining 2 years of his contract.

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