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#70: San Jose Sharks vs Vancouver Canucks | 7:00 PST, TSN(HD), CSN-CA

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Old
03-19-2010, 01:03 AM
  #626
The Nemesis
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So I'm back from the game.

If your name is on the following list, you had an acceptable game:
Clowe, Ryane
Couture, Logan
Leach, Jay
Pavelski, Joe
Wallin, Niclas

If your name is not on the above list, either you did a) nothing, b) bad, or c) nothing, which in your case equals bad.

that is all.

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Old
03-19-2010, 01:20 AM
  #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
So I'm back from the game.

If your name is on the following list, you had an acceptable game:
Clowe, Ryane
Couture, Logan
Leach, Jay
Pavelski, Joe
Wallin, Niclas

If your name is not on the above list, either you did a) nothing, b) bad, or c) nothing, which in your case equals bad.

that is all.
I thought Marleau, Thornton, Heatley and Setoguchi actually played decently well. They generated more chances than any other line.

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03-19-2010, 01:22 AM
  #628
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Huskins was solid as well. 2 assists.

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03-19-2010, 01:30 AM
  #629
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Originally Posted by SJfortheCUP View Post
Really going out on a limb there.
Like this?



This team is Baaaaaaaaah-d.

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Old
03-19-2010, 01:32 AM
  #630
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Huskins was awful. Don't let his assists fool you. His first assist was on Clowe's goal, which was 100% Clowe and 0% Huskins. His second assist was a fling toward the net that Pavelski batted out of mid air and then roofed a bouncing puck off the ice, Huskins deserves no credit for either goal.

Huskins does absolutely nothing in his own end. Time and time again he is getting pushed around in front of his own net. He never ties up sticks, boxes out, or blocks shot. He is utterly useless.

Did you see him just fall on his ass during that 2-1? Setoguchi backchecked his heart out to make that play, while Huskins just dropped to a knee then back on his rear end like the useless turd that he is.

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03-19-2010, 01:53 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Let's hope. But given DW's past trades, being a top prospect for the Sharks just means he's more likely to peddle you for some aging over the hill geezer that he thinks "will bring leadership to the room" and who "knows how to win". Except that they never do on the Sharks.



Why would he trade Boyes? Who was arguably one of the better center prospects at the time in the whole league. Yet DW pawned him off for a lower-tier 2nd liner / decent 3rd liner in Brown. DW makes retarded trades, it's his specialty.
Revisionist history.

Boyes at the time was not one of the better center prospects in the league. He was a potential 2nd-line center. People were comparing him to a pre-San Jose Alyn McCauley.

DW wants to give his team the best chance to win. The Brown trade didn't do much to help this team, but the fact that he traded away a prospect that wouldn't have made the SJ roster for a chance at a SC is commendable.

Collecting shiny prospects does nothing to help you win. Your idea of how to win a Cup is ridiculous; as if that is what all great teams do, maintain a roster from year to year until 5-10 years later that same roster wins a cup. Every successful roster makes changes. Huges changes sometimes. Heck, Pittsburgh's only constants are Gonchar, Malkin, Crosby, Staal, and Fleury. They traded Esposito and got Hossa; I am sure you thought that was a horrible trade, yet that trade got them to the SC final and gave the team valuable experience.

DW's mistake in my estimation has been building a core surrounding Joe Thornton, who will never win us a cup. But what he is doing, every year trading non-essential pieces for complementary players that can help this team win a cup is the right strategy.

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03-19-2010, 01:59 AM
  #632
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Boyes was playing wing in St. Louis when he scored 40 goals, IIRC. He still is, I think.

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03-19-2010, 02:01 AM
  #633
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Does anyone wanna drink malt liquor with me and cry?

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Old
03-19-2010, 02:10 AM
  #634
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Originally Posted by CJL182 View Post
We all want them to turn it around right away, but they've been playing so god damn poorly that it's going to take time. Yes this game was disappointing, but at least it's a step in the right direction and there's still time. I'm still waiting to see consistent 60 minute efforts though.
I'm trying to remember when they last played a good, complete, dominant 60 minute game. It was probably way back before Malhotra got injured (pre-olympics), during those games when it looked like Todd had discovered 3 lines that could score. Of course, since Manny came back he hasn't actually tried those three lines again, because obviously it wasn't working

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03-19-2010, 02:10 AM
  #635
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Does anyone wanna drink malt liquor with me and cry?
When the playoffs end in April, we can switch to vodka.

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03-19-2010, 02:17 AM
  #636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polmaniac932 View Post
I thought Marleau, Thornton, Heatley and Setoguchi actually played decently well. They generated more chances than any other line.
Marleau Thornton, and Heatley, once they were together, basically had a good 8-10 minutes. They controlled play in the 2nd period for a couple of shifts, and the pushed a little bit while they were out on the PP with Boyle and Pavs. But overall they weren't as effective as they could've been. In a strange sort of parallel though, the Sedin line didn't do a hell of a lot either though.

As for Seto, he was OK, but I think in part he benefited from the fact that Pavs played a very very good game (bar none, the most dangerous Shark) and Clowe did well too. He had a couple of very good chances that he ended up blowing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
Huskins was solid as well. 2 assists.
No. Huskins was in part responsible for one of the Canuck goals (the Johnson one, I think) and his assists were pretty much gifts.

In general I thought the D was ineffective from an offensive standpoint. the puck didn't really work through them all that much, except Boyle. Also I want to strangle Huskins if he tries another ill-advised pinch.

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03-19-2010, 02:20 AM
  #637
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Believe me, many of us are aware of this. Some of us thought he was the best Sharks d-man last year. And trading him has to go down as one of DW's stupidest moves ever.
Only retarded people (to borrow from your language) thought that. That title belonged to Boyle and Boyle alone last year.

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03-19-2010, 02:25 AM
  #638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Only retarded people (to borrow from your language) thought that. That title belonged to Boyle and Boyle alone last year.
Unless you wanted someone to play on the PK up one goal late in the 3rd...

I don't disagree with you, but based on Ehrhoff's minutes, both total and situational, an argument could be made. Unlike this year where I imagine Boyle leads the D in ice time by a country mile.

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03-19-2010, 02:48 AM
  #639
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Also, let us not forget that DW considered including Ehrhoff in the Boyle deal as well...

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03-19-2010, 03:08 AM
  #640
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What's done is done and we have our team minus call-ups. I like to believe every move made up until now will contribute towards success (even the Error trade, though I'd love to get better prospects or get better picks from him, so we can skip that deal).

I like to think our team can do this.

I have lost my logical sense, my talent, sense, and the we have the best team in the league sense. I probably lost another sense in there, but it's a moot point.

Heatley makes me happy. He can finish and did so at the highest level. Thorty(yeah, I'm rolling with it) should bode well with ANOTHER finisher. I have felt, the biggest problem has been this.

Last year, effin, Michalek nor Cheech could finish, nor Marleau; and the same goes for the year before. I'm not talking stats, but finishing the easy ones. If we do that, we advance. Heater can do that. That's what he is here for. That's why I believe if the Sharks win the Cup, Heater is Conn Smythe.... or Big Joe for diming people. I believe even though many might not.

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03-19-2010, 03:41 AM
  #641
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I'd pay Joe Thornton 10,000 dollars for each game he had 10 shots on net. If he did that he'd have like 40 goals now, and I'd be living on the street.

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03-19-2010, 06:54 AM
  #642
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Huskin , Leach, Wallin just don't have it........love Couture by the way.....

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03-19-2010, 08:20 AM
  #643
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Question boys...comin' in peace:

Was Ehrhoff an ''adventure'' for you guys in the defensive zone, or was he just asked to be more a rover by the staff? He has been great for us. Obviously the offence - but his coverage is great too. Thanks boys.

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03-19-2010, 09:15 AM
  #644
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Question boys...comin' in peace:

Was Ehrhoff an ''adventure'' for you guys in the defensive zone, or was he just asked to be more a rover by the staff? He has been great for us. Obviously the offence - but his coverage is great too. Thanks boys.
he was an adventure every time he was on the ice

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03-19-2010, 09:44 AM
  #645
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Question boys...comin' in peace:

Was Ehrhoff an ''adventure'' for you guys in the defensive zone, or was he just asked to be more a rover by the staff? He has been great for us. Obviously the offence - but his coverage is great too. Thanks boys.
When he was young, sort of, but last year he was one of the better PKers (imo). He was more of an adventure in the middle of the ice, he took risks in the offensive that would lead to mistakes (some of which he speed allowed him to cover), but he was generally not bad in the defensive zone.

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03-19-2010, 10:18 AM
  #646
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Please don't pair Huskins and Blake again

I don't think they've ever been on the ice together before except when caught in the middle of a change...and it looked like each had no idea what the other guy might do, making them indecisive and ineffective.

More succinctly, they looked like a bucket of suck out there.

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Old
03-19-2010, 06:43 PM
  #647
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Revisionist history.

Boyes at the time was not one of the better center prospects in the league. He was a potential 2nd-line center. People were comparing him to a pre-San Jose Alyn McCauley.

DW wants to give his team the best chance to win. The Brown trade didn't do much to help this team, but the fact that he traded away a prospect that wouldn't have made the SJ roster for a chance at a SC is commendable.

Collecting shiny prospects does nothing to help you win. Your idea of how to win a Cup is ridiculous; as if that is what all great teams do, maintain a roster from year to year until 5-10 years later that same roster wins a cup. Every successful roster makes changes. Huges changes sometimes. Heck, Pittsburgh's only constants are Gonchar, Malkin, Crosby, Staal, and Fleury. They traded Esposito and got Hossa; I am sure you thought that was a horrible trade, yet that trade got them to the SC final and gave the team valuable experience.

Revisionist history? " a prospect that wouldn't have made the SJ roster "??

From the Sports Illustrated article announcing the trade:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hoc...olan_leafs_ap/
Quote:
Boyes was the Leafs' first choice, 24th overall, in the 2000 draft. He is considered the top prospect in the Maple Leafs' system, and the Sharks were happy to acquire another speedy young forward for Nolan.
For other thoughts on the deal, here are two quick results from a random google search:
http://tosportsfan.blogspot.com/2006...lan-trade.html
http://www.battleofcali.com/2009/11/...ber-brad-boyes

When the Sharks got Boyes he put up 64 points in 80 AHL games (combined St. John's and Cleveland). The next year he had 60 points in 61 AHL games before the Sharks traded him, and then another 12 points in 17 games with P. Bruins. And then 75 points in 80 AHL games with the P. Bruins before moving up the NHL full time.

He had 69 points his rookie season in the NHL. "Slumped" to 46 points the year he was traded to St. Louis. And then proceeded to put up 65 (43 goals) and 72 (33 goals) points on a rebuilding St. Louis team.

In what world of yours does trading a top prospect, a guy who had given EVERY indication that he would be both a playmaker and a scorer, for a 2nd-line center with one career 20+ goal season make a team better? There are good trades, and there a stupid trades. Good trades move excess, non-critical players for guys who will help you now. Stupid trades move your future key players for crap-shoot role players now.

If the Sharks had kept Boyes, there is at least a good chance that they would never had made the trade for Thornton, thus eliminating your thought on DW's key mistake. If the Sharks had kept Boyes they could have had Marleau, Boyes, and Pavelski down the middle for the last couple of years. Or they could have moved Boyes to the wing where he's been playing. Add on that Boyes only cost $4 million to sign (less than even Michalek cost) and you would have to be crazy to not think trading him was a mistake of epic proportions.

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03-20-2010, 01:08 AM
  #648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Revisionist history? " a prospect that wouldn't have made the SJ roster "??

From the Sports Illustrated article announcing the trade:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hoc...olan_leafs_ap/
I forgot that SI was the ultimate authority on hockey...that is just how journalists talk...besides, top prospect in the Leafs system doesn't mean top prospect league-wide...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
For other thoughts on the deal, here are two quick results from a random google search:
http://tosportsfan.blogspot.com/2006...lan-trade.html
http://www.battleofcali.com/2009/11/...ber-brad-boyes
Both are after-the-fact commentaries. Obviously, the Leafs blogger who wants to criticize the Leafs's trades is going to overhype Boyes...both blogs look at where Boyes is today and use that to claim that Boyes was a top prospect back then...Boyes showed little hint of becoming the player he is today...surely, anyone can see the obvious issues with the articles you posted. You are picking and choosing articles that superficially support your point, hoping no one looks at the articles in depth...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
When the Sharks got Boyes he put up 64 points in 80 AHL games (combined St. John's and Cleveland). The next year he had 60 points in 61 AHL games before the Sharks traded him, and then another 12 points in 17 games with P. Bruins. And then 75 points in 80 AHL games with the P. Bruins before moving up the NHL full time.
Stats, stats, stats. Krog is a point-per-game AHL player; maybe we should get him on the San Jose roster....implying that his statistical success in the AHL at that time made him a top prospect is silly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
He had 69 points his rookie season in the NHL. "Slumped" to 46 points the year he was traded to St. Louis. And then proceeded to put up 65 (43 goals) and 72 (33 goals) points on a rebuilding St. Louis team.
Everyone knows this, but that doesn't mean that he was considered a top prospect at the time of the trade...I am happy he had success in St.Louis, but there was little chance of him having the same success with San Jose. Some prospects break out in different situations....

It is also important to note that Boyes has done very little on a successful team...it is one thing to put up nice stats on a losing teams (Jokinen) and play well on a SC-caliber team. Boyes is a little bit of a point-compiler, virtually useless unless he is putting up points...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
In what world of yours does trading a top prospect, a guy who had given EVERY indication that he would be both a playmaker and a scorer, for a 2nd-line center with one career 20+ goal season make a team better? There are good trades, and there a stupid trades. Good trades move excess, non-critical players for guys who will help you now. Stupid trades move your future key players for crap-shoot role players now.
I didn't like the trade in a value-for-value assessment. But Boyes had no future in San Jose. The projection on him was a 20 goal, 50-point center with skating and defensive issues. Boyes was an essential, non-critical player. As was Bernier, as was Gorges, as were those two first-round-picks, as was Bonino, etc. The only real critical players he has traded were Michalek, whose years of terrible playoff play combined with the fact that San Jose neaded a shakeup (and a bonafide goal-scoring winger) made him expendable, and Ehrhoff, who was a cap casualty. And even then, neither player was a serious "core/franchise" asset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
If the Sharks had kept Boyes, there is at least a good chance that they would never had made the trade for Thornton, thus eliminating your thought on DW's key mistake. If the Sharks had kept Boyes they could have had Marleau, Boyes, and Pavelski down the middle for the last couple of years. Or they could have moved Boyes to the wing where he's been playing. Add on that Boyes only cost $4 million to sign (less than even Michalek cost) and you would have to be crazy to not think trading him was a mistake of epic proportions.
Right. Because that is what a sane GM is thinking. "I have Boyes, I don't need Thornton". Thornton, at the time, was a player any GM would have traded for. DW himself said the team could have been on a 10-game-winning streak and he would have still pulled the trigger on that trade. A player like Boyes, never, never makes a player like Thornton expendable. I don't fault Wilson for trading for Thornton, I fault Wilson for not identifying Thornton as the issue after the series against Dallas and again after San Jose lost to Anaheim.

And a center-core comprised of Marleau, Boyes, and Pavelski isn't really that dangerous. It isn't like that would have solved our problems...

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03-20-2010, 01:21 AM
  #649
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We could argue this all day. I don't see you quoting any sources for your 20 goal expectations. I certainly don't remember any such quotes from anyone. What I remember was a bunch of people, including me, being amazed that the Sharks were able to get Boyes as part of the Nolan deal.

You can think having Boyes still makes the JT trade go down. And maybe it does. But the question is if the Sharks have Boyes does DW ever really go calling Boston at all? No matter what your thoughts on that, you are right in that JT is part of the problem, not the answer. And in time I think it will be proven that Heatley is not part of the answer, and Boyle isn't either. And god knows Blake isn't. The Sharks are trying to build a team of "superstars", ignoring the fact that this never worked for Toronto, and it never worked for New York. It's also ignoring the fact that the Sharks team that achieved the most was a team with depth is skill and scoring, including six 20+ goal scorers and "the best 3rd line in hockey". And yet somehow DW continues to think that high skill players beat high will players.

So disagree with me all you want. Certainly enough other people do. But this team will not succeed until they change their team building mind-set, they change their development system (firing Sommer as a start), and they change their drafting system (they have to scout outside of the 67's, they need better assessments of 1st and 2nd round guys, and they need to scout in Europe outside of Germany).

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03-20-2010, 01:50 AM
  #650
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
We could argue this all day. I don't see you quoting any sources for your 20 goal expectations. I certainly don't remember any such quotes from anyone. What I remember was a bunch of people, including me, being amazed that the Sharks were able to get Boyes as part of the Nolan deal.
Boyes as a potential 30-goal-scorer? That was definitely a stretch. He is still a simple point-compiler...

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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
You can think having Boyes still makes the JT trade go down. And maybe it does. But the question is if the Sharks have Boyes does DW ever really go calling Boston at all?
Unless you think Boyes on that San Jose team means the Sharks aren't one of the worst teams in the standings, Wilson still calls Boston. Boyes, today, isn't the type of player who can revolutionize a team like that; this is doubly true for Boyes-the-rookie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
The Sharks are trying to build a team of "superstars", ignoring the fact that this never worked for Toronto, and it never worked for New York. It's also ignoring the fact that the Sharks team that achieved the most was a team with depth is skill and scoring, including six 20+ goal scorers and "the best 3rd line in hockey". And yet somehow DW continues to think that high skill players beat high will players.
When it comes to the playoffs, depth is overvalued. It is what your franchise players do that makes or breaks your team. Look at Pittsburgh, a team with little depth but great top-line talent. Depth can't hurt and is especially useful in the case of injury, but in the main, top-line talent is the way to go. The San Jose team you mentioned didn't find success thanks to Ricci, Thornton, or Korolyuk. It didn't get anywhere because of depth like Ekman, Dimitrakos, and McCauley. It was Marleau, Damphousse, Nabokov, and Hannan that did the heavy-lifting that playoffs. The only depth guy that made a significant impact was Cheechoo, and he became a integral part of the team the next season...

It isn't that high-willed > high-skilled; one needs high-skilled, high-willed players. One needs both. Pittsburgh gets nowhere with Scott Nichol and Manny Malhotra as its top centers. It doesn't get anywhere without Crosby and Malkin fighting for every inch of ice.

Why do you mention Toronto and New York (two teams that often never made the playoffs) but don't mention Anaheim, Detroit, Colorado, New Jersey, Pittsburgh (in a way with two super-duper-stars in Malkin and Crosby), Tampa Bay, etc....plenty of teams have succeded with a team "built of superstars". This disingenousness no one likes...obviously this San Jose team is much more like the latter teams than the former. The only team that has bucked the trend has been Carolina in '06, and they had a red-hot goaltender and Eric "Clutch" Staal on that team..

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