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Old
03-19-2010, 06:33 PM
  #126
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I've said this before and gotten shouted down for it but here it comes again. When your example on how to treat the press, or on giving the press access, is Glen Sather, this is what you get. I'm not saying Tortorella was warm and fuzzy before arriving here. Obviously he wasn't. But I'm sure Sather hasn't said word one to him in regards to this situation. I'm sure he's actually enjoying it. And I disagree with a post or two above. He IS being paid to answer Brooks' questions. It's a post game press conference of a game he coached in. He's still on company time. If he doesn't want to answer questions he shouldn't be there.

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03-19-2010, 06:43 PM
  #127
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I think one of the main problems is that this board is filled with high school and early college kids who don't really understand how things work.

Just because you don't like Brooks doesn't mean that he's wrong on this.


Torts is the most immature member of this organization. He is a HUGE problem for this team. There is no reason this team should not be in the playoffs.

Torts can't fix ANYTHING that is wrong with this team.

Renney would take the same mediocre roster and fix the deficiencies for stretches so the team would win games. When new problems arose he would fix THOSE and win some more. Torts just keeps trying to put square pegs into round holes and blaming the players again and again.


Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they're wrong.

Is Brooks annoying? Sure. But so what? He's 100 percent right on this.

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03-19-2010, 06:56 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
I think one of the main problems is that this board is filled with high school and early college kids who don't really understand how things work.

Just because you don't like Brooks doesn't mean that he's wrong on this.


Torts is the most immature member of this organization. He is a HUGE problem for this team. There is no reason this team should not be in the playoffs.

Torts can't fix ANYTHING that is wrong with this team.

Renney would take the same mediocre roster and fix the deficiencies for stretches so the team would win games. When new problems arose he would fix THOSE and win some more. Torts just keeps trying to put square pegs into round holes and blaming the players again and again.


Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they're wrong.

Is Brooks annoying? Sure. But so what? He's 100 percent right on this.
Tortorella is putting square pegs in round holes because Sather gave him nothing but square pegs to work with.

Why should this team be in the playoffs? Our 1st line center has by default been a guy picked up off waivers. Our defense is anchored by a 23 year old and our PP has been QB'd by a 19 year old rookie. Sather did such a horrible job of putting together a 4th line that he's had to acquire multiple players midseason to attempt to address it. We've had to rely on 2 rookie defenseman to play virtually the whole season because of a lack of a 7th defenseman. We've had two rookie play backup goalie for a large portion of the season leading to Lundqvist having to play large quantities of games. This is a team that should be in the playoffs? You could argue that Tortorella is at fault to some extent for this, but for the most part it's out of his hands.

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03-19-2010, 07:09 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
I think one of the main problems is that this board is filled with high school and early college kids who don't really understand how things work.

Just because you don't like Brooks doesn't mean that he's wrong on this.


Torts is the most immature member of this organization. He is a HUGE problem for this team. There is no reason this team should not be in the playoffs.

Torts can't fix ANYTHING that is wrong with this team.

Renney would take the same mediocre roster and fix the deficiencies for stretches so the team would win games. When new problems arose he would fix THOSE and win some more. Torts just keeps trying to put square pegs into round holes and blaming the players again and again.


Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they're wrong.

Is Brooks annoying? Sure. But so what? He's 100 percent right on this.
Not singling you out, but just highlighting a theme here.

To me, this is the main problem with this thread.

I can see where people can agree with Brooks and disagree with Torts and vice versa. I'm certainly on the other side of the argument.

For anyone to claim that either Brooks or Torts is 100% right or wrong on their views on this is logically inaccurate.

Torts' personality with the team may not be a big help right now, and likely isn't. But on the other hand, it cannot be blamed--- nor should it be singled out as the main reason ---for the teams' woes. Especially by someone with an agenda to write negatives pieces about the man.

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Old
03-19-2010, 07:53 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
Tortorella is putting square pegs in round holes because Sather gave him nothing but square pegs to work with.

Why should this team be in the playoffs? Our 1st line center has by default been a guy picked up off waivers. Our defense is anchored by a 23 year old and our PP has been QB'd by a 19 year old rookie. Sather did such a horrible job of putting together a 4th line that he's had to acquire multiple players midseason to attempt to address it. We've had to rely on 2 rookie defenseman to play virtually the whole season because of a lack of a 7th defenseman. We've had two rookie play backup goalie for a large portion of the season leading to Lundqvist having to play large quantities of games. This is a team that should be in the playoffs? You could argue that Tortorella is at fault to some extent for this, but for the most part it's out of his hands.
I'd like you to look at the rosters Renney had the years he got us to the playoffs and explain to me how those teams made the playoffs and this one won't.



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Originally Posted by BwayBshirt View Post
Not singling you out, but just highlighting a theme here.

To me, this is the main problem with this thread.

I can see where people can agree with Brooks and disagree with Torts and vice versa. I'm certainly on the other side of the argument.

For anyone to claim that either Brooks or Torts is 100% right or wrong on their views on this is logically inaccurate.

Torts' personality with the team may not be a big help right now, and likely isn't. But on the other hand, it cannot be blamed--- nor should it be singled out as the main reason ---for the teams' woes. Especially by someone with an agenda to write negatives pieces about the man.
You're arguing semantics. I agree with you. You're taking that too literally. I apologize for putting it that way.

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Old
03-19-2010, 08:16 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
I'd like you to look at the rosters Renney had the years he got us to the playoffs and explain to me how those teams made the playoffs and this one won't.





You're arguing semantics. I agree with you. You're taking that too literally. I apologize for putting it that way.
To reference the thoughts of Jonathan, Renney's system simply masked the inherent problems of the team. He trapped the hell out of the other teams and squeezed just enough out of them to get a 6 or 7 seed, and then subsequently losing in the early stages of the playoffs. Could Renney have taken this team to a 7th seed? Maybe, but is that really progress? Renney's system turned below average teams into slightly above average teams. It can not turn good teams into great teams.

Anyway, this is the point. If it's going to take a Renney trapping system to squeek into the playoffs for a 4th consecutive year, then the problem is not behind the bench and is in management. It shouldn't have to come down to that. In 5 years since the lockout the Rangers have had 5 completely different teams and two coaches with completely different styles. I'm not saying that Tortorella is the greatest thing since Scotty Bowman, but changing coaches isn't going to change anything about this team.

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Old
03-19-2010, 08:31 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
To reference the thoughts of Jonathan, Renney's system simply masked the inherent problems of the team. He trapped the hell out of the other teams and squeezed just enough out of them to get a 6 or 7 seed, and then subsequently losing in the early stages of the playoffs. Could Renney have taken this team to a 7th seed? Maybe, but is that really progress? Renney's system turned below average teams into slightly above average teams. It can not turn good teams into great teams.

Anyway, this is the point. If it's going to take a Renney trapping system to squeek into the playoffs for a 4th consecutive year, then the problem is not behind the bench and is in management. It shouldn't have to come down to that. In 5 years since the lockout the Rangers have had 5 completely different teams and two coaches with completely different styles. I'm not saying that Tortorella is the greatest thing since Scotty Bowman, but changing coaches isn't going to change anything about this team.
The point you make regarding Renney covering up the deficiencies is exactly why I don't mind Tortorella, more or less, doing what he's doing now. He's practically exposed the team, at its core, to Sather and to the rest of management so that hopefully the future corrections are made accordingly.

Torts is saying "Here's what I have, Glen. You and your boys start planning for how to fix it."










Whether it gets fixed or not is another story. *coughnotlikelycough*

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03-19-2010, 08:37 PM
  #133
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Renney was able to get a team with 10th place talent into the 7th or 6th seed and lose in the first round.

Torts has gotten a team with 10th place talent into 10th place.

The real problem is that the Rangers continue to have 10th place talent.

I'm glad Torts is the coach this year for the single reason that this organization can't hide behind schemes and the obvious talent deficiencies that have held them out of the 2nd round the past three years has to be addressed correctly for once.

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Old
03-19-2010, 08:43 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by BwayBshirt View Post
The point you make regarding Renney covering up the deficiencies is exactly why I don't mind Tortorella, more or less, doing what he's doing now. He's practically exposed the team, at its core, to Sather and to the rest of management so that hopefully the future corrections are made accordingly.

Torts is saying "Here's what I have, Glen. You and your boys start planning for how to fix it."










Whether it gets fixed or not is another story. *coughnotlikelycough*
Exactly my point. Renney did a great job of overachieving, but the problem is that he had to overachieve. Tortorella has exposed the team for what it is and has been.

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Old
03-19-2010, 08:43 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
I think one of the main problems is that this board is filled with high school and early college kids who don't really understand how things work.

Just because you don't like Brooks doesn't mean that he's wrong on this.


Torts is the most immature member of this organization. He is a HUGE problem for this team. There is no reason this team should not be in the playoffs.

Torts can't fix ANYTHING that is wrong with this team.

Renney would take the same mediocre roster and fix the deficiencies for stretches so the team would win games. When new problems arose he would fix THOSE and win some more. Torts just keeps trying to put square pegs into round holes and blaming the players again and again.


Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they're wrong.

Is Brooks annoying? Sure. But so what? He's 100 percent right on this.
None? So a team in the league's bottom 5 in GF/G screams playoff contender to you?

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Old
03-19-2010, 08:45 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
I think one of the main problems is that this board is filled with high school and early college kids who don't really understand how things work.
While I agree that there are plenty of the type of posters that you are talking about, I think you'll find that such conditions aren't confined to just that age group.

Quote:
Torts is the most immature member of this organization. He is a HUGE problem for this team. There is no reason this team should not be in the playoffs.

Torts can't fix ANYTHING that is wrong with this team.
He might be immature, but he isn't a huge problem. He's just angry and frustrated because he was placed into an impossible situation. He was hired to be different than Renney, but the team sucks just as much, if not worse, and the only way **** teams can win anything is by trapping to death.

Quote:
Renney would take the same mediocre roster and fix the deficiencies for stretches so the team would win games. When new problems arose he would fix THOSE and win some more. Torts just keeps trying to put square pegs into round holes and blaming the players again and again.


Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they're wrong.

Is Brooks annoying? Sure. But so what? He's 100 percent right on this.
You're right, Renney would do that, but why is that a good thing? That's not better than what's happening now. That's just prolonging the ********. What would be good is assembling a team that doesn't suck dicks, so that it doesn't have to play Jacques Lemaire hockey to win games.

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Old
03-19-2010, 08:52 PM
  #137
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Ian...

a team with Jagr, Nylander, Shanny, Lundqvist, etc., is better than a 10th place team given where other teams were in those seasons. Torts did take a team that was looking at a season in which things were going downhill fast and they made it to the playoffs and played a very good team to a three game series. Luck of the draw, unfortunately.

Not trying to say Torts is great, but if he's going to take the blame for the 10th place, then he takes the credit for turning around a team however crazy that sounds.

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Old
03-19-2010, 09:22 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Renney was able to get a team with 10th place talent into the 7th or 6th seed and lose in the first round.

Torts has gotten a team with 10th place talent into 10th place.

The real problem is that the Rangers continue to have 10th place talent.

I'm glad Torts is the coach this year for the single reason that this organization can't hide behind schemes and the obvious talent deficiencies that have held them out of the 2nd round the past three years has to be addressed correctly for once.
And the sad thing is that Sather is such a poor GM that he probably thought he could get away with not addressing those deficiencies or failed to realize what the deficiencies were in the first place.

The Rangers needed a shutdown defenseman after the 2007 season and it wasn't addressed, perhaps because Sather thought it wasn't a priority due to Renney's defensive scheme. Meanwhile, 3 years later we still don't have a legitimate crease-clearing defenseman and the defense is exposed as the piece of the crap that it is.

This is why when someone advocated playing the trap next season, I wholeheartedly disagreed. Masking the team's inadequacies is not going to accomplish anything. Time for Sather to do his job instead of hoping that a coach can cover up his mistakes.

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Old
03-19-2010, 09:29 PM
  #139
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No, that's what you get when you have a bunch of people who like to read this crap. I hate Brooks, but at the same time, I don't blame him for writing a lot of what he does. If people are that ignorant and unintellectual that they enjoy the garbage that he spews then more power to him.

That said, I don't see where Tortorella is crying about Brooks criticizing him. To be honest, I don't think he could care less.
All fair points.

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03-19-2010, 11:50 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Renney was able to get a team with 10th place talent into the 7th or 6th seed and lose in the first round.

Torts has gotten a team with 10th place talent into 10th place.

The real problem is that the Rangers continue to have 10th place talent.

I'm glad Torts is the coach this year for the single reason that this organization can't hide behind schemes and the obvious talent deficiencies that have held them out of the 2nd round the past three years has to be addressed correctly for once.
Great post.

Larry can whine all he wants about Torts because he had his feelings hurt, but hes not the source of the problem.

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03-20-2010, 09:14 AM
  #141
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Maybe I'm missing something here but I've always been under the impression that a coach's job is to get the most out of what he has to work with.

It's almost as if everyone in this thread is criticizing Renney for being a better coach than Tortorella and praising Tortorella because in some sort of twisted dimension it's better that the current coach can't get anything more out of the talent that he has.

Guys, no matter how much you think that this might change things for the organization, it won't. If Sather wants to be here and things are bad like this he will remove the coach and start again. You guys really think the arrogant Mr. Sather is sitting around questioning how poor all of the moves he made are? It's doubtful. It's probably more along the lines of questioning the coaches ability to get anything out of what he has been given.

Whether or not you or anyone else agrees with that doesn't matter. I just don't see how any of you can believe that the way this team is playing is making Sather wax poetic about how he's finally realized how poor the roster he has constructed is.


Everyone loves to bring up how they couldn't stand Renney even if he won because they couldn't watch the games. How is this any better? Are you guys really having more fun watching Torts' "system"? Whatever the hell his system is. I'm still not sure anyone knows. Losing games again and again and again is not my idea of a good time.

At the end of the day it's hard to compare the two because Renney's tenure here was longer. However, we've already seen a huge difference between this Torts team and all of Renney's. When crunch time came Renney's teams played their best hockey and did what they needed to do to make the postseason. Torts' team has gotten worse and worse.

I never wanted Renney gone, but I do understand after a while changes need to be made. I still am not positive that Renney truly lost that team last year and would've liked to see what would've happened if he was given the rest of the season.

But this year? It's obvious Torts has lost this team big time. That to me is the main reason he shouldn't be back next year.

Hell, I'd fire him right now. Let the guys play loose these last ten games or so. It definitely couldn't hurt.

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03-20-2010, 10:20 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
Everyone loves to bring up how they couldn't stand Renney even if he won because they couldn't watch the games. How is this any better? Are you guys really having more fun watching Torts' "system"? Whatever the hell his system is. I'm still not sure anyone knows. Losing games again and again and again is not my idea of a good time.

It's not better. It's a different form of bad. Neither Renney's team last season, nor this team are any fun to watch. Renney's team bored the hell out of me, and Torts team annnoys the hell out of me. Both teams share something in common though...they both lack the talent needed to be compete.


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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
At the end of the day it's hard to compare the two because Renney's tenure here was longer. However, we've already seen a huge difference between this Torts team and all of Renney's. When crunch time came Renney's teams played their best hockey and did what they needed to do to make the postseason. Torts' team has gotten worse and worse.
First off, this year isn't over yet; there's still 11 games to go. Second, if you look back to last year, we actually went 11-6-1 over the stretch run under Torts to make the playoffs. Third...having to make a run to solidify a bottom seed is nothing to brag about.


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But this year? It's obvious Torts has lost this team big time. That to me is the main reason he shouldn't be back next year.
Lost the team? When did he have them?

They had a nice little start to the year, but were exposed soon after.

Goaltending is the only strength here. Defense stinks. Offense is unable to dictate anything. We are not physical, nor are we very disciplined. Our powerplay is crap.

There isn't much to work with here. I'm not sure Renney could even make this team anything other than mediocre. That's why, unlike many around here, I'm not going to crucify Tortorella. Has he done things that i don't like? Yes. Does he have much to work with? No.

I don't know if Torts will ever work out here, but I do know this, we are not 1 or 2 steps away from a cup. It's going to take time.

Culminating with the cup in Tampa, Torts team improved each year while under his command. Therefore, I'm willing to be patient and give him another year to see if there are improvements.

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Old
03-20-2010, 10:50 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Renney was able to get a team with 10th place talent into the 7th or 6th seed and lose in the first round.

Torts has gotten a team with 10th place talent into 10th place.

The real problem is that the Rangers continue to have 10th place talent.

I'm glad Torts is the coach this year for the single reason that this organization can't hide behind schemes and the obvious talent deficiencies that have held them out of the 2nd round the past three years has to be addressed correctly for once.
Correction, Jagr and his monster 123 point season and overachieving Nylander and Straka turned a 10th place team into a 7th place team.

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03-20-2010, 11:11 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Renney was able to get a team with 10th place talent into the 7th or 6th seed and lose in the first round.

Torts has gotten a team with 10th place talent into 10th place.

The real problem is that the Rangers continue to have 10th place talent.
Correct (sort of, since under Renney we generally lost in the second round).

But while that means Tortorella isn't necessarily the source of the problem, as HBNYC put it, that doesn't mean that he has done an adequate job and that the team should be in his hands going forward.

Your statement strongly suggests that Tortorella is an inferior coach to Renney, and Renney isn't exactly Scotty Bowman. We can do better. And we must do better -- this is a crucial moment in the organization's history. This is not the time to put the organization's future in the hands of a coach with highly questionable tactical acumen and an attitude problem.


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Old
03-20-2010, 11:17 AM
  #145
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Correction, Jagr and his monster 123 point season and overachieving Nylander and Straka turned a 10th place team into a 7th place team.
1. We also made the playoffs and won a round in seasons that Jagr had 96 and 71 points.

2. The coach is responsible for putting players in a position to succeed, both tactically (by finding the right line combinations, developing chemistry, etc.) and psychologically (by earning players' trust and respect and creating a bond among and a positive spirit within the team)... Something that someone needs to tell John Tortorella. Renney (and Jagr, obviously) played a role in Nylander's and Straka's success here.

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03-20-2010, 11:32 AM
  #146
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Correct (sort of, since under Renney we generally lost in the second round).

But while that means Tortorella isn't necessarily the source of the problem, as HBNYC put it, that doesn't necessarily mean that he has done an adequate job and that the team should be in his hands going forward.

Your statement strongly suggests that Tortorella is an inferior coach to Renney, and Renney isn't exactly Scotty Bowman. We can do better. And we must do better -- this is a crucial moment in the organization's history. This is not the time the put the organization's future in the hands of a coach with highly questionable tactical acumen and an attitude problem.
I disagree to an extent, but even if we assume that you're 100% right, then it only proves that Brooks is writing a bunch of crap. This isn't a Renney vs. Tortorella thread, it's a thread debating Brooks' article which essentially blames Tortorella for the Rangers' failures. Even if Tortorella hasn't done the best job, he isn't the one that deserves to be the focus of multiple articles. If Brooks truly was concerned with what was holding back the Rangers we'd be getting weekly articles about Glen Sather and Jim Dolan. Instead he's wasting energy writing about a coaching position who, in the grand scheme of things, is irrelevant.

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03-20-2010, 11:38 AM
  #147
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Correction, Jagr and his monster 123 point season and overachieving Nylander and Straka turned a 10th place team into a 7th place team.
why do you think Jagr had a monster season, and why do you think Nylander and Straka overachieved?

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Old
03-20-2010, 11:40 AM
  #148
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why do you think Jagr had a monster season, and why do you think Nylander and Straka overachieved?
Jagr was reborn and Nylander and Straka overachieved because of Jagr.

If Renney made Jagr overachieve, then how come almost every other star who came to the Rangers under him underachieved?

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03-20-2010, 11:51 AM
  #149
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why do you think Jagr had a monster season, and why do you think Nylander and Straka overachieved?
Same reason Gionta had 48 goals that year and Cheechoo scored 56 goals that year. Scoring was up across the league in 2005-06 because the players were adjusting to the post-lockout rules.

Gomez scored 33 goals that season, clearly a fluke because he's never gotten close to scoring that many in his career, and unfortunately I think that career year influenced Sather to go hard after Gomez.

Also, Nylander and Staka had great chemistry with Jagr. Nylander's career is practically over now that he's no longer playing with Jagr. Nylander's success here had a lot more to do with him benefiting from playing with Jagr than Renney getting the most out of him.

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03-20-2010, 11:52 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
Jagr was reborn and Nylander and Straka overachieved because of Jagr.

If Renney made Jagr overachieve, then how come almost every other star who came to the Rangers under him underachieved?
shanny was par for the course. gomez put up typical gomez numbers (though i don't know if the word star is right for him)

what other stars did we have exactly?

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