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Our Blueline Youth got worse this year

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Old
03-14-2010, 09:40 PM
  #1
Beacon
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Our Blueline Youth got worse this year

Here's what I think. Our defense looked a lot more impressive in October than it does right now.

MDZ: No longer on a hot streak, but very impressive. No problems here, but look below.

Gilroy: Only 13 points, probably will finish with about 15. Worse than expected and we can no longer regard him as a likely PP #2.

Sangs: Started at a point per game, got called up to the NHL and then collapsed offensively. Did not perform as well as we had hoped he would. I am having doubts about him being a PP #2 as well. Half a year ago, you had to figure either him or Gilroy would do it, but now it's not so certain.

Heineken: Failed to make the team and probably leaving. No longer in team's long term plans.

Potter: Mediocre year, failed to break through, already 26 years old. No longer expected to play in the NHL except maybe for a game or two per season.

Williams: Terrible start, only a mild improvement since. Not realistic to expect him to become a top-4 NHLer, and probably not even a bottom pairing one either.

Sauer: I may be wrong, but I don't see where he made an improvement over last year. Based on that, again, his ranking has to be downgraded.

Ryan McDonagh: Same as Sauer. Not enough improvement, which at this age means a downgrade. I am thinking it's now more likely that he'll be a bottom pairing defenseman than a top pairing one.

Kundratek: Not a particularly good year as an overager. I don't see him being a top 4 defenseman, and he'll need to show a lot more improvement to be a top 6 dman. I would bet that he'll start next year in the ECHL, not the AHL.

Sam Klassen: same as Kundratek, not a good year for someone older than all others in the league.

Valentenko: Injured all year, so obviously it's a negative.

Tysen Dowzak: Not ready for pro hockey and he's already 22 years old. He won't even be an AHL regular, much less ever wearing an NHL jersey.



The only person besides MDZ whose progress satisfies me is Mitch Gaulton.

We had a phenomenal group of blueline youth at the start of the year, with people here widely talking about dealing away guys like Sanguinetti, but it doesn't look as good now.

We are still very strong on defense, but there's no longer an embarrassment of riches.

When people were talking about trading Sangs earlier this year, I warned that this may happen, and it did.

Here's my list of players who are or have a chance to become a top-4 defenseman.

1. Staal
2. MDZ
3. Girardi
4. Gilroy

5. Sangs
6. Sauer
7. McD

Outside shot: Valentenko & Gaulton.

If either Gilroy or Sangs can develop into solid half a point per game offensive producers, the team will be in great shape, but if neither of them pans out, our defense won't be as hot as we originally thought it would be.

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03-14-2010, 09:51 PM
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I think people overrated a lot of the Rangers defensive prospects to begin with.

Though I don't mind Gilroy...he's had to improve a lot on the physical part of his play and he quietly turned into a pretty solid player for the most part. Not perfect, but he improved through the year and has recently started jumping up into the play again.

Sauer, dude just has injury problems and I don't think he's going to make it because of that.

Potter is Potter and I dont' think he's ever been regarded by the Rangers as a legit NHLer at this point.

Sanguinetti has had a pretty solid year in Hartford and I don't think you can blame him for not making a major impression in the bit of time he got with the Rangers. I think he's made progress, it just remains to be seen whether the Rangers keep him or move him.

I don't think Heikinen was ever in the teams long term plans. Williams was a gamble and doesn't really matter.

McDonagh is regarded as one of the best defenseman in his college league so hey be disappointed if you really want but it doesn't sound like WCHA watchers will agree with you.

Other guys aren't really bigtime prospects anyways.

They've still got some good stuff in there.

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03-14-2010, 09:58 PM
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Wish Heik would have been kept around, when he was up here was very solid, and a very cheap alternative to Rozsival.

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03-14-2010, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Here's what I think. Our defense looked a lot more impressive in October than it does right now.

MDZ: No longer on a hot streak, but very impressive. No problems here, but look below.

Gilroy: Only 13 points, probably will finish with about 15. Worse than expected and we can no longer regard him as a likely PP #2.

Sangs: Started at a point per game, got called up to the NHL and then collapsed offensively. Did not perform as well as we had hoped he would. I am having doubts about him being a PP #2 as well. Half a year ago, you had to figure either him or Gilroy would do it, but now it's not so certain.

Heineken: Failed to make the team and probably leaving. No longer in team's long term plans.

Potter: Mediocre year, failed to break through, already 26 years old. No longer expected to play in the NHL except maybe for a game or two per season.

Williams: Terrible start, only a mild improvement since. Not realistic to expect him to become a top-4 NHLer, and probably not even a bottom pairing one either.

Sauer: I may be wrong, but I don't see where he made an improvement over last year. Based on that, again, his ranking has to be downgraded.

Ryan McDonagh: Same as Sauer. Not enough improvement, which at this age means a downgrade. I am thinking it's now more likely that he'll be a bottom pairing defenseman than a top pairing one.

Kundratek: Not a particularly good year as an overager. I don't see him being a top 4 defenseman, and he'll need to show a lot more improvement to be a top 6 dman. I would bet that he'll start next year in the ECHL, not the AHL.

Sam Klassen: same as Kundratek, not a good year for someone older than all others in the league.

Valentenko: Injured all year, so obviously it's a negative.

Tysen Dowzak: Not ready for pro hockey and he's already 22 years old. He won't even be an AHL regular, much less ever wearing an NHL jersey.



The only person besides MDZ whose progress satisfies me is Mitch Gaulton.

We had a phenomenal group of blueline youth at the start of the year, with people here widely talking about dealing away guys like Sanguinetti, but it doesn't look as good now.

We are still very strong on defense, but there's no longer an embarrassment of riches.

When people were talking about trading Sangs earlier this year, I warned that this may happen, and it did.

Here's my list of players who are or have a chance to become a top-4 defenseman.

1. Staal
2. MDZ
3. Girardi
4. Gilroy

5. Sangs
6. Sauer
7. McD

Outside shot: Valentenko & Gaulton.

If either Gilroy or Sangs can develop into solid half a point per game offensive producers, the team will be in great shape, but if neither of them pans out, our defense won't be as hot as we originally thought it would be.
Sangs will be fine. He's 22. Money says he makes the club next year. He just needs to relax and not try to do too much.

Sauer is fine, but can't stay healthy. The talent is there, but it's all about the injuries. Has always been and likely always will be. Nothing has changed.

Potter was never that good. I've been saying that forever but no one believes me. Williams just sucks.

I haven't seen much of Kundratek this year so I can't comment that much.

You're WAY off on McDonagh. He's one of the top three college defenseman in the nation and is having a very solid season. If you're thinking he's bottom pairing at best, you're by yourself on that.

Gaulton and Maggio have been okay. Klassen is UDFA so what were we expecting? There's also Pashnin. Those guys were all marginal prospects to begin with, and along with Dowzak, I don't think anyone was counting on them for anything more than they've done this season.

I'll buy that Gilroy hasn't been as good as hoped, but otherwise, I think the defensive prospects have fared as well as I'd thought they would.

I think the biggest issue is, again, people need to temper their expectations with these kids and not get ahead of themselves.

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03-14-2010, 10:17 PM
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If you don't think McDonagh has a chance to be a top 4 d-man, it's clear as day you have not seen him play.

It's a ridiculous opinion.

If you haven't seen the guy, just admit it. You come off as very, very foolish saying something like that.

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03-14-2010, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
If you don't think McDonagh has a chance to be a top 4 d-man, it's clear as day you have not seen him play.

It's a ridiculous opinion.

If you haven't seen the guy, just admit it. You come off as very, very foolish saying something like that.
What's foolish is to bust on a guy for having an opinion, I myself have liked what I've seen for McDonagh and still believe he has an upside. Otherwise I think he's dead on

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03-14-2010, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by LyNX27 View Post
Wish Heik would have been kept around, when he was up here was very solid, and a very cheap alternative to Rozsival.
yeah too bad. although since rangers already know and if the salary cap would let them, maybe they should bring beer up as a 7th d-man to give MDZ or gilroy a breather in a game or two.

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Old
03-14-2010, 10:29 PM
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Sanguinetti improved his offensive totals, decreased his penalty minutes, and showed the ability to hold his own in his limited time in the NHL. That sure as hell is progress in my eyes. What were you expecting from him?

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03-14-2010, 10:36 PM
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I don't know, Sanguinett looked pretty damn bad when he played with the Rangers. Heineken played much better imo.

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03-14-2010, 10:42 PM
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Damn stat sheets. Always ruining the development of our players.

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03-14-2010, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerichy35 View Post
What's foolish is to bust on a guy for having an opinion, I myself have liked what I've seen for McDonagh and still believe he has an upside. Otherwise I think he's dead on
It's OK to have an opinion but the expectations have to be realistic.

Mitch Gaulton missed a month with another elbow injury and his progress satisfies the OP?

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03-14-2010, 11:07 PM
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can rangers give voros the brashear treatment and recall heikkinen?

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03-14-2010, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Here's what I think. Our defense looked a lot more impressive in October than it does right now.

MDZ: No longer on a hot streak, but very impressive. No problems here, but look below.

Gilroy: Only 13 points, probably will finish with about 15. Worse than expected and we can no longer regard him as a likely PP #2.

Sangs: Started at a point per game, got called up to the NHL and then collapsed offensively. Did not perform as well as we had hoped he would. I am having doubts about him being a PP #2 as well. Half a year ago, you had to figure either him or Gilroy would do it, but now it's not so certain.

Heineken: Failed to make the team and probably leaving. No longer in team's long term plans.

Potter: Mediocre year, failed to break through, already 26 years old. No longer expected to play in the NHL except maybe for a game or two per season.

Williams: Terrible start, only a mild improvement since. Not realistic to expect him to become a top-4 NHLer, and probably not even a bottom pairing one either.

Sauer: I may be wrong, but I don't see where he made an improvement over last year. Based on that, again, his ranking has to be downgraded.

Ryan McDonagh: Same as Sauer. Not enough improvement, which at this age means a downgrade. I am thinking it's now more likely that he'll be a bottom pairing defenseman than a top pairing one.

Kundratek: Not a particularly good year as an overager. I don't see him being a top 4 defenseman, and he'll need to show a lot more improvement to be a top 6 dman. I would bet that he'll start next year in the ECHL, not the AHL.

Sam Klassen: same as Kundratek, not a good year for someone older than all others in the league.

Valentenko: Injured all year, so obviously it's a negative.

Tysen Dowzak: Not ready for pro hockey and he's already 22 years old. He won't even be an AHL regular, much less ever wearing an NHL jersey.



The only person besides MDZ whose progress satisfies me is Mitch Gaulton.

We had a phenomenal group of blueline youth at the start of the year, with people here widely talking about dealing away guys like Sanguinetti, but it doesn't look as good now.

We are still very strong on defense, but there's no longer an embarrassment of riches.

When people were talking about trading Sangs earlier this year, I warned that this may happen, and it did.

Here's my list of players who are or have a chance to become a top-4 defenseman.

1. Staal
2. MDZ
3. Girardi
4. Gilroy

5. Sangs
6. Sauer
7. McD

Outside shot: Valentenko & Gaulton.

If either Gilroy or Sangs can develop into solid half a point per game offensive producers, the team will be in great shape, but if neither of them pans out, our defense won't be as hot as we originally thought it would be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
If you don't think McDonagh has a chance to be a top 4 d-man, it's clear as day you have not seen him play.

It's a ridiculous opinion.

If you haven't seen the guy, just admit it. You come off as very, very foolish saying something like that.

As you can see from my original post, I did think that he has a chance to be a top 4 defenseman, just that the odds of this happening are less now than they were half a year ago.

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Old
03-14-2010, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
As you can see from my original post, I did think that he has a chance to be a top 4 defenseman, just that the odds of this happening are less now than they were half a year ago.
And that is based on what exactly?

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03-14-2010, 11:25 PM
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Are we really bashing DZ and Gilroy for being rookies and tiring down the stretch after making the jump from CHL/NCAA straight to the bigs?

If you look around the league, you'd be hard pressed to find a team playing 4 of 6 d-men in the NHL who were developed by the organization.

After that, you still have two legit d-men who project to be top-4 (Sangs and MacD)

The other guys are all filler. They're band aids. Just in case fixer uppers for the bottom pairing, if that.

You also have to take into consideration that the Rangers in the last three seasons have been incredibly healthy along the blueline. There hasnt been a single significant injury (outside of DZ stitches which came at the break) which would give a prospect a legit 20-25 game trial at the NHL level.

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Old
03-14-2010, 11:57 PM
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One can't emphasize enough how patient you need to be with young defensemen. Give these players time.

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03-15-2010, 12:03 AM
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In regards to the OP:

McD: Stat watching. He plays on a loaded blue line with the likes of Brendan Smith, Jake Gardiner and Cody Goloubef, yet he still anchors the top pair. Will likely be a WHCA 1st team all star in the hardest division in the NCAA. Did I mention he is one of the captains? Did I mention that Wisconsin is ranked 3rd in the country? I still think he has top pairing potential.

Sanguinetti: Stat watching again. He plays on a horrible team and by all accounts has drastically improved his defense. Offensively you have to consider his injury and being called up to yet another horrible team hurt his confidence a bit. He has progressed nicely.

Kundratek: Stat watching AGAIN. He is a defensive defenseman who is putting up way better numbers then the previous season. Sorry he isn't putting up a PPG for you. Definite NHL potential.

Sauer: Steady defenseman playing in the 2nd hardest league in the world, and definitely NHL ready. Nobody expected him to be anchoring a defense core in the NHL yet.

If you ever expected anything out of players like Dowzak, Potter, Klassen and Williams this year you were kidding yourself. Even in the games Potter has been called up he looked good, but I still don't think he is in the teams future plans.

I'm assuming on your list the highlighted players are the ones who are already extremely close to be top 4 defenseman. You have 4 highlighted, with arguably 3 of them already there, and 4 more on the way who also have good chances (Kundratek may peak as a 3rd pairing dman). Does any team in the NHL have a d-core with ever single player considered a top 4? I don't think so.

Lower your expectations.

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03-15-2010, 12:22 AM
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I think Gilroy has actually been pretty good overall. He has shown some flashes of being a good defenseman and his defense is much better than we all thought. I think the offense will come with time and his natural skating ability will take hold once it becomes more "second-nature" and he stops thinking so much. He just needs time.

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03-15-2010, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Ryan McDonagh: Same as Sauer. Not enough improvement, which at this age means a downgrade. I am thinking it's now more likely that he'll be a bottom pairing defenseman than a top pairing one.
Not a great evaluation. Just because there hasn't been news coming out of UW about him, doesn't mean he hasn't been progressing and doesn't have abilities that Rangers would like to use.

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03-15-2010, 12:39 AM
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You have some legitimate points. I knew Gilroy would never be more than a #6. He is good at skating and can fill that role on a club nicely.

MDZ is a rook. Im holding judgement because despite his decline offensively and his poor +/- he does a lot of things well.

Sauer will make the team next season, if Sanguinetti doesnt.

Anyone that considered Heikkinen or Potter more than a 7th callup will inevitably be dissapointed.

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03-15-2010, 01:12 AM
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One could rag on Gilroy, Girardi, Heikkinen, Sauer, Potter...

But ragging on Sanguinetti and McDonagh doesn't make sense right now.

McDonagh is very good. He's a leader. And he's only 20 years old.

Sanguinetti only just turned 22, and he improved over a very solid rookie pro season.

Sanguinetti and McDonagh are both going to be solid NHL players.

If the expectation was greatness and A1 defensemen, then I don't think the expectations were warranted.

They're both NHL caliber players, and will be very good.

They're not PP quarter backs.

Del Zotto is/will be, though.

Staal
Del Zotto
Sanguinetti
McDonagh

If you can add a guy like Seidenberg(who blocks a lot of shots and does a lot of little things right) and also add a real tough as nails guy, that's a solid group of 6 Dmen.

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03-15-2010, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerichy35 View Post
What's foolish is to bust on a guy for having an opinion, I myself have liked what I've seen for McDonagh and still believe he has an upside. Otherwise I think he's dead on
Because the OP clearly did not WATCH him play and simply is stats surfing. Anyone basing their opinion off of that is a fool.

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03-15-2010, 01:17 AM
  #23
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There seems to be either this overhyping of prospects, or completely ragging on them.

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03-15-2010, 01:18 AM
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One could rag on Gilroy, Girardi, Heikkinen, Sauer, Potter...

But ragging on Sanguinetti and McDonagh doesn't make sense right now.

McDonagh is very good. He's a leader. And he's only 20 years old.

Sanguinetti only just turned 22, and he improved over a very solid rookie pro season.

Sanguinetti and McDonagh are both going to be solid NHL players.

If the expectation was greatness and A1 defensemen, then I don't think the expectations were warranted.

They're both NHL caliber players, and will be very good.

They're not PP quarter backs.

Del Zotto is/will be, though.

Staal
Del Zotto
Sanguinetti
McDonagh

If you can add a guy like Seidenberg(who blocks a lot of shots and does a lot of little things right) and also add a real tough as nails guy, that's a solid group of 6 Dmen.

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03-15-2010, 02:01 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Because the OP clearly did not WATCH him play and simply is stats surfing. Anyone basing their opinion off of that is a fool.

Anyone who talks out of his rear end is a fool. You really need to shut up when you don't know what you are talking about, and this is particularly true when you are using the word "clearly" for something you have no about.

Do you know me? Do you know if I watch him every game or just learned his name yesterday? Do you know if I am basing it on stats or games or other people's opinions (Leslie, etc.) or a combination of all of these?

I am sure you'll say that it's "clear" based on what I wrote, but it's not and yes, you ARE wrong.

In the future, please do me a favor, ignore all my threads. You can keep your opinion about what's clear to you and what's not to yourself.

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