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Old
03-19-2010, 10:18 PM
  #26
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I think a big physical crease clearing DMan is just what the doctor ordered.
Yeah, kind of like a Freddy Meyer...

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03-19-2010, 11:53 PM
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The frightening thing is that Ness is probably better then Gervais right now...

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03-20-2010, 12:30 AM
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The frightening thing is that Ness is probably better then Gervais right now...
I think Jean Potvin in whatever condition he is right now is better than the Chef.

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03-20-2010, 02:06 AM
  #29
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I disagree completely. The Islanders are far from comfortable offensively, but while the fates of Tavares, Okposo, and Bailey are yet to be determined, they are still undeniably NHL talent. The Islanders have 0 locks for the NHL on defense. There is little upside in those that are close to the NHL and the ones with higher upside are not close to NHL ready.

If there is a forward that is undeniably the best player available then the Islanders should go with him, but all things being equal (or close to equal) they would be dumb not to go with a defender.
Standing and applauding... this is some incredible trolling... the whole thing, but with special emphasis on the parts in bold. Extraordinarily well done.

Couple that with the thread hijacking and you're looking more dominant than the UConn women's team

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03-20-2010, 05:53 AM
  #30
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I have seen Ness play and I can tell you that he has the skills to succeed and make the NHL. Minnesota screwed with a lot of good talent. While Schroeder is not my type of player, he regressed from his freshman season in every facet and just turned pro. Zach Budish IS my type of player, and he seems to be making zero progress. Nick Leddy looked mediocre last I saw him.

Don't sell Ness short (no pun intended) simply because he is another guy with a small frame and isn't putting up great numbers at a discombobulated program. Watch him play if you can find replays on Fox College Sports. He will simply need to reach the frame of a guy like Hillen to get a shot at doing his best Rafalski imitation. Not saying he will necessarily be that good, but Ness was billed as first-round talent for a reason. If he had ready-made size, he would've been a top ten overall pick, even in that strong year.
The gophers as a team looked bad. From the bad years. This year plus the last two. Okposo did leave. And how long did it take for him to reach the NHL and erase all those gopher habits? I doubt half a year in the AHL did that much. Blake Wheeler. Boston cannot be happy with that guy. Junk. Stoa played 9 NHL games. Second leading goal scorer on his AHL team. 2 behind the lead with 8 less games played. Derek Peltier, played NHL games in COL. If in the last season he still puts out 4 guys that have played in the NHL. Odds are few on the current team will to.

Last year the gophers had Ryan Stoa. 5th in the Nation in goal scoring. Tops in the WCHA. We also had another player Jay Barriball that was a point per gamer. Both guys were great on the PP. Stoa left and Barriball got hurt. Our top PP from a year ago was Ness, Fairchild, Schroeder, Stoa and Barriball. One wheel can be replaced. When two wheels come its hard to get back on track. Especially when one is not expected or planned for.

Ness has gotten alot better IMO. His shot is noticably harder and gets through traffic. he has more meat on him and can defend better in his own zone. He is picking his spots better as when to jump into the play.

Zack Buddish was coming off a torn ACL. An injury that Hoeffel and Stoa had. The trainers did great just getting him ready to start the season. The WCHA all rookie team featured players that were all 11 months older than Budish and one almost two years. All will be 20 years old by July. Budish turns 19 in May. Just competing at 18 is huge in the WCHA. Several teams do not have any one born after 90. Many have several 86s and 87s.

Nick Leddy. A broken jaw can set any ones year back a bit. He turns 19 later this month. He came on strong after he got back. Took a bit of contact to get that feel. But he played very well of late.

When you say regressed. Reffering to any of our players. As a team yes. Players all got better year to year. If MN was so bad, Okposo and all our other alum come back and practice with the team. Ness got to work with Paul Martin, Keith Ballard and try and defend Kessel or Vanek. MN is a team made up of 4 lines of top 6 players. It looks ugly at times as no one really has a role. Lucia has addressed this and has brought in, well for the 10-11 season. Many older role player types on partial scholarships and a few as walk ons. To push players and fill out a team.

As for Ness. If he has a legit chance to make the Isles. I say go for it. Even if it is as a call up at some point. If all the Isles want is to place him in the AHL to get bigger and stronger. Or the ECHL then why go? Play hockey in MN turn a program around. Play top minutes, play on the PP and the PK. be asked to carry a load. Possibly wear a letter.

With Jordan Leopold, Paul Martin, Keith Ballard, Erik Johnson, Alex Goligoski on your resume. Lucia seems to be able to coach defesmen. Or at least turn them into solid NHLers.

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Old
03-20-2010, 08:40 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Dice on Ice View Post
Standing and applauding... this is some incredible trolling... the whole thing, but with special emphasis on the parts in bold. Extraordinarily well done.

Couple that with the thread hijacking and you're looking more dominant than the UConn women's team
How am I trolling? Are the Islanders fans in this thread who have agreed with me trolling to?

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03-20-2010, 09:12 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
I think I can safely say that neither of those two will become first pairing defensemen in the NHL. Meanwhile in Okposo, Bailey, and Tavares the sky's the limit. My point is that there is no sane hockey fan who would say, "Hillen and MacDonald; now THAT is a core I'd love to build around."
I took "little room for development" at face value.

The Isles actually have built up some depth in the pipeline on D. Any elite? Too early to tell. Lots of teams who spent top 10 picks on Dmen in the past probably thought they were set, but defensemen are even more difficult to project than forwards. Aki Berg. Brad Stuart. Etc..

Building a winner isn't all about top 10 "sure thing" drafting. And people sometimes overrate the number of elite players a team needs. A sprinkling at the top of the roster is all you realistically can hope for, and then having the right foundation of support players is key to building a winner.

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03-20-2010, 09:39 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
How am I trolling? Are the Islanders fans in this thread who have agreed with me trolling to?
How are Hillen and McDonald not NHL defensemen? Or Streit? I think you're way off.

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03-20-2010, 09:50 AM
  #34
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How are Hillen and McDonald not NHL defensemen? Or Streit? I think you're way off.
When the Islanders plan on realistically being contenders Mark Streit will be anywhere between 35 and 38 years old. I don't think he will be a building piece at that point in time. And yes, those two might be NHL defensemen, but their upside is limited. It's extremely improbable that either will be a key part of any legitimate defense.

I took "little room for development" at face value.

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The Isles actually have built up some depth in the pipeline on D. Any elite? Too early to tell. Lots of teams who spent top 10 picks on Dmen in the past probably thought they were set, but defensemen are even more difficult to project than forwards. Aki Berg. Brad Stuart. Etc..

Building a winner isn't all about top 10 "sure thing" drafting. And people sometimes overrate the number of elite players a team needs. A sprinkling at the top of the roster is all you realistically can hope for, and then having the right foundation of support players is key to building a winner.
I didn't say anything about the Islanders drafting a sure thing on defense. For all I know Cam Fowler is the next Andy Delmore. But at the same time, what's to stop Tyler Seguin from becoming Jason Krog?

Defenseman are more difficult to evaluate, but does that mean the Islanders should just ignore them? Yes, for all we know Blake Kessel could become a 4 time Norris winner, but look at the Islanders forward core vs. defensive. Which do you have more faith in long term? Okposo, Tavares, Bailey, Schremp and Petrov? Or MacDonald, Hillen, Harmonic, De Haan, and Ness? To me it's blatantly obvious that the forward core is both the safer bet and has more upside. That's what all things being equal I think it's a no-brainer for the Islanders to take a defenseman.

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03-20-2010, 10:45 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
When the Islanders plan on realistically being contenders Mark Streit will be anywhere between 35 and 38 years old. I don't think he will be a building piece at that point in time. And yes, those two might be NHL defensemen, but their upside is limited. It's extremely improbable that either will be a key part of any legitimate defense.

I took "little room for development" at face value.



I didn't say anything about the Islanders drafting a sure thing on defense. For all I know Cam Fowler is the next Andy Delmore. But at the same time, what's to stop Tyler Seguin from becoming Jason Krog?

Defenseman are more difficult to evaluate, but does that mean the Islanders should just ignore them? Yes, for all we know Blake Kessel could become a 4 time Norris winner, but look at the Islanders forward core vs. defensive. Which do you have more faith in long term? Okposo, Tavares, Bailey, Schremp and Petrov? Or MacDonald, Hillen, Harmonic, De Haan, and Ness? To me it's blatantly obvious that the forward core is both the safer bet and has more upside. That's what all things being equal I think it's a no-brainer for the Islanders to take a defenseman.
Personally the isles should take BPA. Does not matter the Isles talent is alittle skewed upfront than on D. Not really fair as our best prospects outside of the NHL are on D right not any forward positions.. Hamonic, Dehaan , Donovan, Niemi, russian in ahl (dont want to butcher his name) Kessel, and Ness compared to Petrov, Rhaksani, gregoire and whomever. I probably missed a a bunch of guys as the Isles have truly loaded up since 2006 to which their first rounders are playing NHL hockey already.

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03-20-2010, 10:49 AM
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BPA if the best player isn't a goalie

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03-20-2010, 10:56 AM
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for real, just take the person who is the best player. by the time they are ready, you never know what you needs are going to be, so just take the best one, and engineer a trade if you have too many assets in one area...

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03-20-2010, 11:00 AM
  #38
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Personally the isles should take BPA. Does not matter the Isles talent is alittle skewed upfront than on D. Not really fair as our best prospects outside of the NHL are on D right not any forward positions.. Hamonic, Dehaan , Donovan, Niemi, russian in ahl (dont want to butcher his name) Kessel, and Ness compared to Petrov, Rhaksani, gregoire and whomever. I probably missed a a bunch of guys as the Isles have truly loaded up since 2006 to which their first rounders are playing NHL hockey already.
Notice how I said "all things being equal." If a forward is the BPA then of course the Islanders should go with him. I was disputing the idea of a poster who claimed that the Islanders "should go with a forward" because of "De Haan, Donavan, and Kessel."

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03-20-2010, 12:36 PM
  #39
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When the Islanders plan on realistically being contenders Mark Streit will be anywhere between 35 and 38 years old. I don't think he will be a building piece at that point in time. And yes, those two might be NHL defensemen, but their upside is limited. It's extremely improbable that either will be a key part of any legitimate defense.

I took "little room for development" at face value.
I think your really undervaluing Hillen. Watch im game in and game out, this guy starts breakouts like it nobodies business. Very sound positionally, good at the pinch, good passing sills, just a very sound d-man. EVen if his upside is limited as he he stands now he is a pretty solid player. The Islanders record with and without day and night. 11-4 before he was injured, like 1-4/5 when he was out, now 4-3-1 with him.

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03-20-2010, 01:28 PM
  #40
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Minnesota screwed with a lot of good talent.
I've read/heard that opinion many times. Why is that?

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03-20-2010, 01:41 PM
  #41
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Notice how I said "all things being equal." If a forward is the BPA then of course the Islanders should go with him. I was disputing the idea of a poster who claimed that the Islanders "should go with a forward" because of "De Haan, Donavan, and Kessel."

Don't you have more things to worry about??? Like your team actually getting a home win? Or how about Del-Zotta (Zotto) W/e his name is, maybe he can actually learn how to play "DEFENSE" in the NHL what is he like a -30 since the All Star Break ...

Hillen & AndyMac both will be "CORE" defenseman on this team for 5-7 years

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03-20-2010, 02:37 PM
  #42
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I think your really undervaluing Hillen. Watch im game in and game out, this guy starts breakouts like it nobodies business. Very sound positionally, good at the pinch, good passing sills, just a very sound d-man. EVen if his upside is limited as he he stands now he is a pretty solid player. The Islanders record with and without day and night. 11-4 before he was injured, like 1-4/5 when he was out, now 4-3-1 with him.
Hillen is definitely a solid player. Don't get me wrong, he's not Tomas Pock or anything.

But here's my point, and I think everyone is missing it. If hypothetically the NHL forced the Islanders to get rid of two players out of Okposo, Tavares, Bailey, MacDonald, and Hillen, there's no way in hell Okposo and Tavares are gone, and I think there is definitely merit in picking Bailey over the two defensemen as well. Which is why ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL the Islanders would be better off with the defenseman.


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Don't you have more things to worry about??? Like your team actually getting a home win? Or how about Del-Zotta (Zotto) W/e his name is, maybe he can actually learn how to play "DEFENSE" in the NHL what is he like a -30 since the All Star Break ...

Hillen & AndyMac both will be "CORE" defenseman on this team for 5-7 years
What do you want me to do? Go down in the locker room?

Breaking News: People on message boards dedicated to hockey...like to discuss hockey. Just because of my team affiliation I'm not allowed to voice my opinion on a different team?

And I will be absolutely shocked if both, let alone one, of those two are core defensemen on the Islanders in 5-7 years. Not only does that depend on them actually living up to the "core" label, but who the hell knows what is going on in that time. 7 years ago you would have heard the same statement about Mattias Weinhandl and Justin Mapletoft. Or for the Rangers Fedor Tyutin and Jozef Balef. Or for the Flames 3 years ago Dion Phaneuf and Matthew Lombardi. It's stupid to assume the presence of any player short of the Crosby's and Ovechkin's on any given team in 5-7 years, let alone, of all people, Andrew MacDonald and Jack Hillen.

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03-20-2010, 02:39 PM
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What do you want me to do? Go down in the locker room?

Breaking News: People on message boards dedicated to hockey...like to discuss hockey. Just because of my team affiliation I'm not allowed to voice my opinion on a different team?

And I will be absolutely shocked if both, let alone one, of those two are core defensemen on the Islanders in 5-7 years. Not only does that depend on them actually living up to the "core" label, but who the hell knows what is going on in that time. 7 years ago you would have heard the same statement about Mattias Weinhandl and Justin Mapletoft. Or for the Rangers Fedor Tyutin and Jozef Balef. Or for the Flames 3 years ago Dion Phaneuf and Matthew Lombardi. It's stupid to assume the presence of any player short of the Crosby's and Ovechkin's on any given team in 5-7 years, let alone, of all people, Andrew MacDonald and Jack Hillen.
Just ignore that guy. The rest of us do.

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03-20-2010, 02:43 PM
  #44
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Apparently one of those sources is not his dad.

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The latest hot rumor concerning the Gophers that is circulating at the Final Five is that sophomore defenseman Aaron Ness is talking with the New York Islanders about turning pro. Ness was selected by the Islanders in the second round of the 2008 NHL draft.

Jay Ness, Aaron's father, scoffed at the idea. "He is coming back, he definitely will be back with the Gophers," said Jay Ness, a defenseman for North Dakota from 1982 to '85. "He is coming along. Everybody's expecations are so high."

Ness, an offensive defenseman in high school at Roseau, had two goals and 10 assists for 12 points this season.

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03-20-2010, 04:16 PM
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Apparently one of those sources is not his dad.
Either Ness' dad is being very pc or he's got his head buried in the sand.That Minn. program looks like it's a mess.12 pts on the season isn't 'coming along'.Not even being considered as a finalist for the US wjc team,should have been a huge disappoinment for Ness.

I think SI has a new article about the Gophers problems.If I can find the link,I'll post it.

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03-21-2010, 12:46 AM
  #46
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Either Ness' dad is being very pc or he's got his head buried in the sand.That Minn. program looks like it's a mess.12 pts on the season isn't 'coming along'.Not even being considered as a finalist for the US wjc team,should have been a huge disappoinment for Ness.

I think SI has a new article about the Gophers problems.If I can find the link,I'll post it.
I can tell you the problems. Lucia is not so much coach as he is a preparer. Players get better in several areas but do not always put into the team format. Guentzal and Motzko two assistants when we were winning, have left. Our new assitant Hill is more like Lucia. Gets them ready but as a staff they instill little fire on game day. G. Potulny is on the staff and should help add some fire. He is a first year coach and needs to get his feet wet.

Lucia as a recruiter has gotton some nice skill players. Yet few big d men or true grinders. In a team game we roll 4 lines. But do not have a line of guys to "get it going" there are no hulking d men to clear the crease. It shows. We essentially get bullied and there is no one to really stand up.

Lucia has an undisclosed health problem as well. He has been sidelined. I do not know how much he can put into coaching. There were rumors that it was Crones or some kind of palzi(sp). He is not the same.

I honestly feel. Players are getting great care in the offseason. We have had three players with ACL tears are back 100%. Players are adding weight and improve in their skating and shooting. Lucia can coack skills. He just lost that drive to get his team going on game day. Its bad for team. I do not see the players suffering, though, from a devolpment stand point.

One other thing with Snow. He was upset Okposo was played so much at center. He was just the best option. So his game faltered a bit on the stat sheet as he was learning a new position. Blake Wheeler was asked to play center as well. He had to learn and may have suffered in the process. Wheeler now attributes that change to him learning the d game. He is now a top PKer for Boston becasue he was asked to play out of position. Boston got a better player because Lucia challenged him.

Don't look at stats. Look at the best scoers in college hockey every year. Few are reular NHLers when is all said and done.

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03-21-2010, 01:45 AM
  #47
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Either Ness' dad is being very pc or he's got his head buried in the sand.That Minn. program looks like it's a mess.12 pts on the season isn't 'coming along'.Not even being considered as a finalist for the US wjc team,should have been a huge disappoinment for Ness.

I think SI has a new article about the Gophers problems.If I can find the link,I'll post it.
Actually the funny thing is that it is usually the parents who aren't PC and/or push their kids to the pro path early. And it is not like Jay Ness knows what is going on and what given he is a former college hockey player (and not a "M" man - he has no loyalties to the U). Aaron has done a great job of improving his defensive play this year and while there it's not as if he had a great season in the stats department (although you can't use points for defensemen as a barometer; especially when the forwards and powerplay is underwhelming) Ness has dealt with the adversity well and has a shot to continue being a leader next year.

Look, I always take people's quotes with a grain of salt because there are many reasons for them - loyalty, negotiating tactic, position, etc. And I understand both the fans and NY media's skepticism given Snow's previous comments about the U program - seriously, the article writes itself. But unless the Islanders have a great need for a defenseman (and in all honesty I don't know what their needs are) and legitimately feel that Ness has a shot at developing into an NHL next year, putting him in the ECHL or AHL would in my opinion be a waste of time and money. I am used to having players come and go at Minnesota - GMs draft Gopher recruits because they are going to wear the "M" - and the team has lost more underclassmen in the past five years than any other college. The one constant with these prospects whether they were on a good, mediocre or ugly team is that no one who has been pulled from the program early and was not NHL ready has been a regular NHL player. Everyone is still waiting for the greatness of Kris Chucko, Jim O'Brien, Jake Taylor, Danny Irmen and Sam Lofquist (although he has time) in the NHL. [EDIT: Technically you can count Ryan Potulny as he is finally a regular NHLer with Edmonton this season but if I remember correctly he played a couple games with Philadephia (Flyers, not Phantoms) after signing his pro deal.]

Finally, here's the article (see Page 2). While I'll be the first to admit this season has not been up to my expectations in the win-loss column, I don't like how Muir used Schroeder's quotes out of context as they were said to deflect rumors that he would leave mid-season. But overall there's nothing wrong with people questioning Coach Lucia as it is what happens when you are the Yankees of college hockey and you have two unacceptable seasons in a row.


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03-21-2010, 08:03 AM
  #48
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not for nothing, can it hurt to try this kid on left wing? skates like the wind and has world class passing ability. Just let him play with Matt Martin before someone kills all 170 lbs of him. I was a big supporter of Ness during the draft year and still am. Something about him screams he will get better as the competition increases

just a hunch
I was also thinking why not try him on wing. He'll still be undersized, but there are far more successful undersized wingers then successful undersized Dmen.

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03-21-2010, 09:58 AM
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When the Islanders plan on realistically being contenders Mark Streit will be anywhere between 35 and 38 years old. I don't think he will be a building piece at that point in time. And yes, those two might be NHL defensemen, but their upside is limited. It's extremely improbable that either will be a key part of any legitimate defense.
It's more about mileage than age with a player like Streit. I expect him to be solid into his late 30's. But he's 32 now (December birthday). I think noting his age is such a ridiculous stretch to be noted with such unremitting smugness.

If it takes 3+ years to contend (i.e. how long it will take the Rangers, who are one Gaborik injury away from oblivion, to become legitimate again) you can stick a fork in this franchise. If this team isn't challenging for the 8th spot, at the very least, next year, it will be a disaster. It has to become relevant, otherwise the arena will be impossible. Snow/Wang need to know this. OTOH, an improving economy + a resurgent Islanders could turn around the Lighthouse project's prospects in a flash.

I'm sold that you take D-men later in the draft *unless* they are of Doughty/Hedman upside. BPA is never so clear, but forwards are almost always better as they are on draft day than defensemen. Defense depends so much more on mental and physical maturity.

Anyone who really cares about the Isles realizes the draft is an interesting sideshow compared to the free agent/trade portion of the offseason.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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03-21-2010, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MN_Gopher View Post
I can tell you the problems. Lucia is not so much coach as he is a preparer. Players get better in several areas but do not always put into the team format. Guentzal and Motzko two assistants when we were winning, have left. Our new assitant Hill is more like Lucia. Gets them ready but as a staff they instill little fire on game day. G. Potulny is on the staff and should help add some fire. He is a first year coach and needs to get his feet wet.

Lucia as a recruiter has gotton some nice skill players. Yet few big d men or true grinders. In a team game we roll 4 lines. But do not have a line of guys to "get it going" there are no hulking d men to clear the crease. It shows. We essentially get bullied and there is no one to really stand up.

Lucia has an undisclosed health problem as well. He has been sidelined. I do not know how much he can put into coaching. There were rumors that it was Crones or some kind of palzi(sp). He is not the same.

I honestly feel. Players are getting great care in the offseason. We have had three players with ACL tears are back 100%. Players are adding weight and improve in their skating and shooting. Lucia can coack skills. He just lost that drive to get his team going on game day. Its bad for team. I do not see the players suffering, though, from a devolpment stand point.

One other thing with Snow. He was upset Okposo was played so much at center. He was just the best option. So his game faltered a bit on the stat sheet as he was learning a new position. Blake Wheeler was asked to play center as well. He had to learn and may have suffered in the process. Wheeler now attributes that change to him learning the d game. He is now a top PKer for Boston becasue he was asked to play out of position. Boston got a better player because Lucia challenged him.

Don't look at stats. Look at the best scoers in college hockey every year. Few are reular NHLers when is all said and done.

I'm not only looking at Ness' stats,which are disappointing enough.Ness from all reports,wasn't even a finalist for the US wjc team.Defense wasn't considered to be a huge strength for the team,so his not even being considered for one of the final spots sends up a big red flag about his development.

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