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Old
03-21-2010, 03:45 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
It's more about mileage than age with a player like Streit. I expect him to be solid into his late 30's. But he's 32 now (December birthday). I think noting his age is such a ridiculous stretch to be noted with such unremitting smugness.

If it takes 3+ years to contend (i.e. how long it will take the Rangers, who are one Gaborik injury away from oblivion, to become legitimate again) you can stick a fork in this franchise. If this team isn't challenging for the 8th spot, at the very least, next year, it will be a disaster. It has to become relevant, otherwise the arena will be impossible. Snow/Wang need to know this. OTOH, an improving economy + a resurgent Islanders could turn around the Lighthouse project's prospects in a flash.

I'm sold that you take D-men later in the draft *unless* they are of Doughty/Hedman upside. BPA is never so clear, but forwards are almost always better as they are on draft day than defensemen. Defense depends so much more on mental and physical maturity.

Anyone who really cares about the Isles realizes the draft is an interesting sideshow compared to the free agent/trade portion of the offseason.

Cheers,

Dan-o
Not really. The Islanders may sign 3 guys tops. And maybe one of them is an impact player and thats a very big maybe. We still have a ways to go we the young kids.


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03-21-2010, 06:20 PM
  #52
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Send him to Brandon for the Memorial Cup run this year?

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03-21-2010, 07:04 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
When the Islanders plan on realistically being contenders Mark Streit will be anywhere between 35 and 38 years old. I don't think he will be a building piece at that point in time.
First, hlundqvist30, you are a well-informed contributor to HF and welcomed by this poster anytime.

Second, your point about Streit and age is misguided. Check the ages of the top minutes dmen for the last three Cup winners.

Niedermayer
Lidstrom
Gonchar

Around here, the insufferable Date of Birthers (read: those obsessed with children hockey players; not suggesting that is you) perpetrate this myth that age/experience is a vice on defense. FACT is, it's a virtue, among the top talented blueliners. And you do not win Cups with kiddies leading you in minutes on your blueline.

I'm as confident, if not more confident with Mark Streit at age 35-38, than I am with him even now. And, should Gonchar flee the Pens (or vice versa) this summer (unlikely) I sure the hell hope that NYI is working very hard to acquire that "old" dman.

If Hamonic and/or DeHaan develop into NHL dmen of note, great. That still leaves NYI void of talented experience on the backline...and you will win **** without it. Streit is the lone exception. When the time comes, NYI better damn have him re-upped through his mid-late 30s.


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03-21-2010, 07:12 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
I'm as confident, if not more confident with Mark Streit at age 35-38, than I am with him even now. And, should Gonchar flee the Pens (or vice versa) this summer (unlikely) I sure the hell hope that NYI is working very hard to acquire that "old" dman.
agreed...and....add the fact that Streit has not really had a Witt-like set of injuries and bruises, hasn't played a lot of NHL hockey despite his age. If he can stay in shape, he'll be a relatively young 35-38 year old. Unlike some dynasty players that were worn down physically by the age of 30 due to all those damn cup runs!!

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03-21-2010, 07:28 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by ps527 View Post
Not really. The Islanders may sign 3 guys tops. And maybe one of them is an impact player and thats a very big maybe. We still have a ways to go we the young kids.
If the Isles don't try to make the playoffs next year, I think they'll be for sale.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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03-21-2010, 07:32 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
If the Isles don't try to make the playoffs next year, I think they'll be for sale.

Cheers,

Dan-o
I thnik even if this team stays completely the same for next year they should make the playoffs as long as they stay relatively healthy.

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03-21-2010, 07:35 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by ps527 View Post
I thnik even if this team stays completely the same for next year they should make the playoffs as long as they stay relatively healthy.
False. Not even close with that defense.

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03-21-2010, 07:38 PM
  #58
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False. Not even close with that defense.
We need to clone Meyer, obviously!

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03-21-2010, 07:40 PM
  #59
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We need to clone three Chris Prongers, obviously!
Fixed.

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03-21-2010, 07:53 PM
  #60
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False. Not even close with that defense.
Ultimately we do need to add a defenseman or two, but even if we don't there is no reason this team can't make the playoffs considering most of the key guys on this year's team should develop more. Josh and Kyle will be in their third years respectively and each are developing. JT will be another year older and with a full year's experience behind him (and a full offseason in a professional offseason training program). Hillen and MacDonald have taken steps forward and there is no reason they cannot keep up the good play next or even take another step forward. Martinek will be back.

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03-21-2010, 08:07 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by ps527 View Post
Ultimately we do need to add a defenseman or two,
Try three or four.
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Originally Posted by ps527 View Post
but even if we don't there is no reason this team can't make the playoffs considering most of the key guys on this year's team should develop more.
Not really on the back line though. And I can think of four players who may "develop more" and make up my core. You name three, I add Comeau.

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Josh and Kyle will be in their third years respectively and each are developing.
Fair. That's two forwards on a team that needs 12 though.
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Originally Posted by ps527 View Post
JT will be another year older and with a full year's experience behind him (and a full offseason in a professional offseason training program).
He will still be a small, 20-year-old that will take some lumps, though. Not sure if he'll be ready to be the go-to guy by next season. Support will help though, god forbid it ever comes.
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Originally Posted by ps527 View Post
Hillen and MacDonald have taken steps forward and there is no reason they cannot keep up the good play next or even take another step forward.
Possible. But I just don't see a tremendous amount of talent out of either of them. They'll be nice players, but not go-to ones. I don't even know if they will grow more than they already are.
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Martinek will be back.
Don't hold your breath.

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03-21-2010, 08:07 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
First, hlundqvist30, you are a well-informed contributor to HF and welcomed by this poster anytime.

Second, your point about Streit and age is misguided. Check the ages of the top minutes dmen for the last three Cup winners.

Niedermayer
Lidstrom
Gonchar

Around here, the insufferable Date of Birthers (read: those obsessed with children hockey players; not suggesting that is you) perpetrate this myth that age/experience is a vice on defense. FACT is, it's a virtue, among the top talented blueliners. And you do not win Cups with kiddies leading you in minutes on your blueline.

I'm as confident, if not more confident with Mark Streit at age 35-38, than I am with him even now. And, should Gonchar flee the Pens (or vice versa) this summer (unlikely) I sure the hell hope that NYI is working very hard to acquire that "old" dman.

If Hamonic and/or DeHaan develop into NHL dmen of note, great. That still leaves NYI void of talented experience on the backline...and you will win **** without it. Streit is the lone exception. When the time comes, NYI better damn have him re-upped through his mid-late 30s.
I know you're not trying to imply that Streit is on the same level as those three, but at the same time, it is, in a sense, what you are doing.

For every Lidstrom and Niedermeyer there are plenty of Ozolinch's, Redden's, and Zhitnik's; the guys that break down.

Now, for all anyone knows Mark Streit pulls a Chelios and is effective into his 40's. But if we assume that all goes well in Islanderland and they are contending for the cup in 5 years, at that time Streit is 37 pushing on 38. Who knows what kind of condition he's in at that time or if he's even with the team.

Don't get me wrong. I'm against the whole HF mentality of swimming in youth. In fact, in a previous thread discussing Tavares, Okposo, et al, I made it a point that the Islanders need to add some veterans for their sake.

And ultimately my point came down this this; on offense the Islanders have Okposo, Tavares, Bailey, Shremp, and Hunter. On defense there is Streit, MaDonald, Hillen, Harmonic, and De Haan. I think you're crazy if you have more faith in building around that defense than that offense.

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Old
03-21-2010, 08:50 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
For every Lidstrom and Niedermeyer there are plenty of Ozolinch's, Redden's, and Zhitnik's; the guys that break down.
It doesn't mean they broke down because of age. They just weren't great to begin with. Redden started arcing downhill in his 20's. You're drawing a false conclusion.

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03-21-2010, 09:00 PM
  #64
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It doesn't mean they broke down because of age. They just weren't great to begin with. Redden started arcing downhill in his 20's. You're drawing a false conclusion.
How were those guys not great to begin with?

Again, I'm not saying he will break down, but just that it's impossible to predict his abilities in 5 or so years.

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03-21-2010, 09:05 PM
  #65
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I'm not only looking at Ness' stats,which are disappointing enough.Ness from all reports,wasn't even a finalist for the US wjc team.Defense wasn't considered to be a huge strength for the team,so his not even being considered for one of the final spots sends up a big red flag about his development.
I know Ryan Potulny was not on the WJC team when he was eligable as a gopher. Bobby Ryan was left off when he could have been there. Bobby Ryan is a very solid NHLer. The WJC is not a bench mark.

Ness is a third d man. Play medium minutes. Not a PKer on the WJC team. And if he was not going to be a top PP guy. Why have him there. It was like when Sangunietti was not there. He was a middle guy. There is not always room for players like that on a quick tourney team.

Look at the players Lucia has turned out. I said he is a teacher, a preparer. Maybe not the best motivator. But the skills are being learned. And are translatng to the NHL.

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03-21-2010, 09:15 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
How were those guys not great to begin with?

Again, I'm not saying he will break down, but just that it's impossible to predict his abilities in 5 or so years.
You're also forgetting that Streit didn't come over to the NHL until he was 26. His shelf life may be a bit longer because it clearly took him a while to reach his peak. (I know he was playing in the Swiss league, but it was not as rigorous.)

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03-21-2010, 09:27 PM
  #67
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Jordan Schroeder got two goals in his AHL debut. Unless that was best week ever in progress. The gophers did just fine with him. ANd will do just fine Ness.

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03-21-2010, 10:35 PM
  #68
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Jordan Schroeder got two goals in his AHL debut. Unless that was best week ever in progress. The gophers did just fine with him. ANd will do just fine Ness.
I think the issue is not really with the performance of individual players within the systems the coaches have installed but rather the systems themselves as well as personnel decisions.

For example Garth envisioned Kyle as a winger, if Okposo is at center at his most important developmental age then that can certainly be a problem.


Plus your argument is silly. One could just as easily retort that by saying Schroeder would have had 5 goals if he was not screwed up by the MN program or by simply saying one week does not make a career.

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03-21-2010, 11:22 PM
  #69
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just that it's impossible to predict his abilities in 5 or so years.
Well, you seem to have dismissed him pretty readily. I think that's the point. There's plenty of defensemen that have stayed productive well into their 30s.

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03-21-2010, 11:54 PM
  #70
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Well, you seem to have dismissed him pretty readily. I think that's the point. There's plenty of defensemen that have stayed productive well into their 30s.
****, Rob Blake is 41 and he's still a pretty good defenseman in San Jose.

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03-22-2010, 03:20 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
I know you're not trying to imply that Streit is on the same level as those three, but at the same time, it is, in a sense, what you are doing.
Streit is not comparable talent nor production-wide to those three...but he plays the same role as each: #1, top minutes every situation dman. So, yes, I am purposely drawing a comparison in that regard.

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For every Lidstrom and Niedermeyer there are plenty of Ozolinch's, Redden's, and Zhitnik's; the guys that break down.
True...and life as we know it may end tomorrow. If Streit shows a depreciable decline over the remaining two years of his current contract, of course this assessment changes. I, for one, do not count on it.

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And ultimately my point came down this this; on offense the Islanders have Okposo, Tavares, Bailey, Shremp, and Hunter. On defense there is Streit, MaDonald, Hillen, Harmonic, and De Haan. I think you're crazy if you have more faith in building around that defense than that offense.
Personally, I have little faith in "building around" any of the above just yet. A foundation still needs to be established. For foundations are predicated upon production, not DOB, young or old.

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03-22-2010, 06:32 AM
  #72
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MN_Gopher and GopherState, thank you for your contributions.

Ness is actually one of the kids we've learned the least about since his being drafted. We know much more about Hamonic, Martin and Dibenedetto although each were drafted after Ness that summer.

Knowing little about Ness, but not seeing him be the impact player one would expect from a supposedly offensively explosive former Minnesota State Player of the Year (or whatever the official title is), it kind of looks like he's NOT ready to be a pro.

At the same time, many of us have wondered if he'd not have been better off in the WHL. We'll never know.

From an Islander standpoint, we've got lots of guys signed, lots of prospects who will have to be signed this and next summer, and also need to add some better UFAs, if nobody of note is obtained via trade: i.e. dunno why there'd be a rush to see Ness leave college. He's got time and it's not like his body is screaming of pro readiness. Even Bridgeport looks to be alright with the guys we'll likely be signing this summer (Hamonic, maybe Niemi and Kessel) plus the youngins already there (Katic, Klementyev, one of Kohn/Reese).

Low-level progress or not, Ness could still accomplish quite a bit in two more NCAA seasons.

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03-22-2010, 09:08 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by CIsle View Post
MN_Gopher and GopherState, thank you for your contributions.

Ness is actually one of the kids we've learned the least about since his being drafted. We know much more about Hamonic, Martin and Dibenedetto although each were drafted after Ness that summer.

Knowing little about Ness, but not seeing him be the impact player one would expect from a supposedly offensively explosive former Minnesota State Player of the Year (or whatever the official title is), it kind of looks like he's NOT ready to be a pro.

At the same time, many of us have wondered if he'd not have been better off in the WHL. We'll never know.

From an Islander standpoint, we've got lots of guys signed, lots of prospects who will have to be signed this and next summer, and also need to add some better UFAs, if nobody of note is obtained via trade: i.e. dunno why there'd be a rush to see Ness leave college. He's got time and it's not like his body is screaming of pro readiness. Even Bridgeport looks to be alright with the guys we'll likely be signing this summer (Hamonic, maybe Niemi and Kessel) plus the youngins already there (Katic, Klementyev, one of Kohn/Reese).

Low-level progress or not, Ness could still accomplish quite a bit in two more NCAA seasons.
In the right program Ness could still develop a lot in college for 2 more years. Under ideal conditions I think everyone would want him to stay in college but if he stays in Minnesota for 2 more years the Islanders will have a wasted prospect. I can't speak for the Isles but if they feel Ness still has the potential to be a great player they need to get him out of Minny, if they don't feel that way they will leave him there to rot for the next 2 years.

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03-22-2010, 09:34 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
And ultimately my point came down this this; on offense the Islanders have Okposo, Tavares, Bailey, Shremp, and Hunter. On defense there is Streit, MaDonald, Hillen, Harmonic, and De Haan. I think you're crazy if you have more faith in building around that defense than that offense.
good post lundqvist.

I agree with your point about the Hillens and Macdonalds not having the upside of a typical core player but i don't think that's the point. I also think you're right about the Isles having perceived depth MORE at forward than defense - specifically, elite talent (albeit still raw and undeveloped and still uncertain IMO)

But.

I believe you can win a lot of hockey games with smart and mistake-free defensemen. They need not be Orr, Bourque, Coffey and Lidstom.

A lot of cup winners have made do with just "good enough" defensemen, COMBINED with smart, overall defensive play - most recently Carolina, Tampa Bay and the Penguins just last year (although, they had some pretty good centers on that roster)

Another point is that Streit doesn't NECESSARILY need to be the #1 defenseman once the Islanders are competitive. We don't know if it'll be a deHaan, Ness, Fowler or UFA Gonchar or Hamhuis or whomever.

I'd rather have two more Streits and WAIT for the others to grow into players. Not unlike Phoenix did this year. It must have sounded horrifying to fans to suggest that Radim Vrbata, Robert Lang and Matt Lombardi should replace Boedker, Tikhonov and Turris!

The larger point...
I don't think you should draft an 18 year old based on ANY EXISTING team depth, perceived depth especially. Always draft the best talent and go from there. You can always modify the roster once you are ready to contend. Drafting for need is pointless.

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03-22-2010, 10:46 AM
  #75
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good post lundqvist.

I agree with your point about the Hillens and Macdonalds not having the upside of a typical core player but i don't think that's the point. I also think you're right about the Isles having perceived depth MORE at forward than defense - specifically, elite talent (albeit still raw and undeveloped and still uncertain IMO)

But.

I believe you can win a lot of hockey games with smart and mistake-free defensemen. They need not be Orr, Bourque, Coffey and Lidstom.

A lot of cup winners have made do with just "good enough" defensemen, COMBINED with smart, overall defensive play - most recently Carolina, Tampa Bay and the Penguins just last year (although, they had some pretty good centers on that roster)

Another point is that Streit doesn't NECESSARILY need to be the #1 defenseman once the Islanders are competitive. We don't know if it'll be a deHaan, Ness, Fowler or UFA Gonchar or Hamhuis or whomever.

I'd rather have two more Streits and WAIT for the others to grow into players. Not unlike Phoenix did this year. It must have sounded horrifying to fans to suggest that Radim Vrbata, Robert Lang and Matt Lombardi should replace Boedker, Tikhonov and Turris!

The larger point...
I don't think you should draft an 18 year old based on ANY EXISTING team depth, perceived depth especially. Always draft the best talent and go from there. You can always modify the roster once you are ready to contend. Drafting for need is pointless.
I agree on all points. If The Islanders were to have the #2 pick, for instance, It would be stupid for them to pick anyone other than Seguin. However, as I said multiple times in this thread, the Islanders would be stupid not to go with a defenseman with ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL.

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