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Homer - Please add a few European forwards into the mix

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Old
03-23-2010, 11:33 AM
  #1
zamboni88
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Homer - Please add a few European forwards into the mix

Is Ed Snider anti-european? Washington and Pittsburgh are both enjoying the benefits of multiple european forwards.

What gives?

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03-23-2010, 11:36 AM
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1. Obviously he is, I don't think anyone doubts this. Anti-russian at the very least.

2. I don't care where they come from as long as they can play, if we're all north american and talented I'm fine with that.

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03-23-2010, 11:39 AM
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Let's add a new GM first, preferably one who understands cap and asset management, and then we can worry about adding "european" fowards to the mix.

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03-23-2010, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by zamboni88 View Post
Is Ed Snider anti-european? Washington and Pittsburgh are both enjoying the benefits of multiple european forwards.

What gives?
The Caps and Pens have more going for them than having a few Euros sprinkled through their rosters. I'm not saying we don't need or wouldn't benefit from them, but their absence from this team certainly isn't what's holding it back.

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03-23-2010, 11:47 AM
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I've pondered that as well. I'm pretty sure Ed Snider is more anti-Russian than anti-European, which probably dates back to Flyers vs. USSR - just a guess.

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03-23-2010, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by zamboni88 View Post
Is Ed Snider anti-european? Washington and Pittsburgh are both enjoying the benefits of multiple european forwards.

What gives?
Try again. Ive been asking this for years and the best we got was Zelepukin, Malakhov, Afanasenkov, Zhamnov (who was ****ing awesome), Radivojevic, Handzus (was a thousand times more ****ing awesome than Zhamnov).

Until Snider dies, and we get a GM who has NEVER been part of the Flyers organization, bank that you will be seeing very few Europeans in this lineup.

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03-23-2010, 11:49 AM
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Flyers actually do have a history of being at least anti-Russian. Look at the Flyers vs. Red Army game in 1976 that Ed Snider was a big part of as was Bobby Clarke who was our GM for some time. Wouldn't surprise me at all if this lead to us getting late into the game when it came to scouting Russian/European players. I do think we're getting better now though.

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03-23-2010, 11:52 AM
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Holmgren I think is willing to draft from other nations, there were a few fundamental issues:

-After Cechmanek, Brendl, Divisek, Pletka, and Dopita, Clarke was convinced that Czechs only care about playing in the World Championships for their country and not the NHL. Divisek and Pletka didn't want to pay their dues so they went home. They just soured on them altogether. They did bring in some players from Slovakia, but their program had legitimately been in decline.

-Inge Hammarstrom came back and told them everyone from Sweden and Finland sucked. Although they did draft a few more from Finland, they abandoned Sweden altogether. Before drafting Ericsson, it had been since 1999 since the Flyers drafted someone who was actually playing in Sweden (Mario Kempe and David Pritz were playing NA, although Printz went back to Sweden before coming back). It had been since 1996 since they drafted a Swede who was playing in Sweden before their last pick in the draft (Per-Ragna Bergqvist was a 5th round pick in 1996). You'd think that a team that had success with Pelle Lindbergh and Pelle Eklund, plus drafting Peter Forsberg themselves, they would try a little harder in Sweden. It was no coincidence that Holmgren fired Hammarstrom and then drafted Ericsson and Bertilsson.

-They don't really like Russia, everyone knows this. 2004 our Russians played great, but that's it. This and Russians actually think the KHL is better than the NHL, or didn't want to toil and struggle in the NHL and actually work and pay their dues.

In 2006, keep in mind how many Olympians we had. I think we had a guy on 5 of the 7 top nations. Holmgren doesn't have any prejudices towards Europe, and Clarke did for some, and the ones he didn't he had people telling him no one was worth drafting. They drafted more Russians than Swedes since 1996, how many of them made it over? Two of them could have and didn't want to. When the Flyers drafted Justin Williams, Clarke was ready to take Alexander Drozdetsky, but Hammarstrom convinced Clarke (rightfully) that he didn't think other teams scouted him properly.


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03-23-2010, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
1. Obviously he is, I don't think anyone doubts this. Anti-russian at the very least.

2. I don't care where they come from as long as they can play, if we're all north american and talented I'm fine with that.
1. He's said it. I read in full spectrum he had a policy of not drafting European/Russian players. I want to say Eklund changed that or Sinisolo (MSE PLEASE HELP ME!!!!! LOL!!!!!)

2. I agree 100%. Country of origin doesnt matter as long as they give 100% and win.

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03-23-2010, 11:55 AM
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http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ers_part1_of7/
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ers_part2_of7/
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ers_part3_of7/
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ers_part4_of7/
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ers_part5_of7/
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ers_part6_of7/
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ers_part7_of7/
7 parts but an awesome read about our involvement in europe.


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03-23-2010, 11:58 AM
  #11
UseYourAllusion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Holmgren I think is willing to draft from other nations, there were a few fundamental issues:

-After Cechmanek, Brendl, Divisek, Pletka, and Dopita, Clarke was convinced that Czechs only care about playing in the World Championships for their country and not the NHL. Divisek and Pletka didn't want to pay their dues so they went home. They just soured on them altogether. They did bring in some players from Slovakia, but their program had legitimately been in decline.

-Inge Hammarstrom came back and told them everyone from Sweden and Finland sucked. Although they did draft a few more from Finland, they abandoned Sweden altogether. Before drafting Ericsson, it had been since 1999 since the Flyers drafted someone who was actually playing in Sweden (Mario Kempe and David Pritz were playing NA, although Printz went back to Sweden before coming back). It had been since 1996 since they drafted a Swede who was playing in Sweden before their last pick in the draft (Per-Ragna Bergqvist was a 5th round pick in 1996). You'd think that a team that had success with Pelle Lindberg and Pelle Eklund, plus drafting Peter Forsberg themselves, they would try a little harder in Sweden. It was no coincidence that Holmgren fired Hammarstrom and then drafted Ericsson and Bertilsson.

-They don't really like Russia, everyone knows this. 2004 our Russians played great, but that's it. This and Russians actually think the KHL is better than the NHL, or didn't want to toil and struggle in the NHL and actually work and pay their dues.

In 2006, keep in mind how many Olympians we had. I think we had a guy on 5 of the 7 top nations. Holmgren doesn't have any prejudices towards Europe, and Clarke did for some, and the ones he didn't he had people telling him no one was worth drafting. They drafted more Russians than Swedes since 1996, how many of them made it over? Two of them could have and didn't want to. When the Flyers drafted Justin Williams, Clarke was ready to take Alexander Drozdetsky, but Hammarstrom convinced Clarke (rightfully) that he didn't think other teams scouted him properly.
I think all of this is important to note. Much of the lack of European players on this roster comes from a failure to effectively identify and develop them. Whether this is coincidental, or part of a more deep seated unwillingness to actually put in the effort, I'm not as sure.

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03-23-2010, 11:59 AM
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The Flyers were the first NHL team to draft a Russian player, Fred Shero utilized Soviet hockey techniques in his coaching style which led to the first Cup win and there was the situation involving the Stastnys which has been well-documented and eventually involved legal action because the Flyers were committed to bringing them to Philadelphia through defections (the Flyers drafted Anton but an error occured because of his age).

Names like Samuelsson, Sinisalo, Lindbergh and Eklund were key parts of the 80s/Keenan teams. Renberg was part of the team's most famous line since Leach-Clarke-Barber. The Flyers had a formula of drafting Canadians, Ontario and western guys particularly at one point and it worked. There wasn't much US drafting either. Even US-born Holmgren, the drafted player, joined the squad, only because his WHA team in Minnesota flopped financially.

The Flyers also employed Inge Hammarstrom for close to 20 years as mainly a Euro scout until the last year or so.. He was one of the few supporters and certainly the most vocal in the drafting of Peter Forsberg and remained in that corner during the trade negotiations. There were misses, too, along the way like when the Flyers drafted Alexander Drozdetsky and Hammarstrom said "not only is this a home run, but he's the next Igor Larionov." Sinisalo now has important scouting duties.

In recent years, guys like Sbisa, Bodrov and Bartulis have been high picks.


Last edited by MiamiScreamingEagles: 03-25-2010 at 09:24 AM. Reason: (added Samuelsson)
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03-23-2010, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
I think all of this is important to note. Much of the lack of European players on this roster comes from a failure to effectively identify and develop them. Whether this is coincidental, or part of a more deep seated unwillingness to actually put in the effort, I'm not as sure.
I also feel there is a big difference between the way Czechs were being developed and the way Slovaks were being developed. During the time that Czechs were coming out of woodwork, you had the guys like Michal Handzus, Lubos Bartecko, Radivojevic, and the like who could legitimately defensive players if not two-way players. Probably the emphasis on defense has held Slovakia back. There was more to being a Slovak and not Czech than which side of the border they were on.

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03-23-2010, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
The Flyers were the first NHL team to draft a Russian player, Fred Shero utilized Soviet hockey techniques in his coaching style which led to the first Cup win and there was the situation involving the Stastnys which has been well-documented and eventually involved legal action because the Flyers were committed to bringing them to Philadelphia through defections (the Flyers drafted Anton but an error occured because of his age).

Names like Sinisalo, Lindbergh and Eklund were key parts of the 80s/Keenan teams. Renberg was part of the team's most famous line since Leach-Clarke-Barber. The Flyers had a formula of drafting Canadians, Ontario and western guys particularly at one point and it worked. There wasn't much US drafting either. Even US-born Holmgren, the drafted player, joined the squad, only because his WHA team in Minnesota flopped financially.

The Flyers also employed Inge Hammarstrom for close to 20 years as mainly a Euro scout until the last year or so.. He was one of the few supporters and certainly the most vocal in the drafting of Peter Forsberg and remained in that corner during the trade negotiations. There were misses, too, along the way like when the Flyers drafted Alexander Drozdetsky and Hammarstrom said "not only is this a home run, but he's the next Igor Larionov." Sinisalo now has important scouting duties.

In recent years, guys like Sbisa, Bodrov and Bartulis have been high picks.
Aw, c'mon, why ruin a nice rant with facts and stuff?

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03-23-2010, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by zamboni88 View Post
Is Ed Snider anti-european? Washington and Pittsburgh are both enjoying the benefits of multiple european forwards.

What gives?
To answer your question yes.

Also, Flyers European scouting staff ****ing sucks. I am convinced that Flyers organization is giving jobs to their former players from 70th and 80th based on past reputation instead of actually spending money on real scouts.

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03-23-2010, 12:24 PM
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To answer your question yes.

Also, Flyers European scouting staff ****ing sucks. I am convinced that Flyers organization is giving jobs to their former players from 70th and 80th based on past reputation instead of actually spending money on real scouts.
The disappointing thing to me is with a cap now in place and them raking money hand over fist even more so, they should have some of the top scouts and a top scouting dept in the league. Not sure they do. They should be able to go to areas other teams wont spend to go to. Maybe they do and we just donít know it. Doesnít seem like it.

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03-23-2010, 12:27 PM
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The disappointing thing to me is with a cap now in place and them raking money hand over fist even more so, they should have some of the top scouts and a top scouting dept in the league. Not sure they do. [B]They should be able to go to areas other teams wont spend to go to.[/B] Maybe they do and we just donít know it. Doesnít seem like it.
Virgin Islands? Aruba?

You are right. We do not know. Probably never will.

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03-23-2010, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
The Flyers were the first NHL team to draft a Russian player, Fred Shero utilized Soviet hockey techniques in his coaching style which led to the first Cup win and there was the situation involving the Stastnys which has been well-documented and eventually involved legal action because the Flyers were committed to bringing them to Philadelphia through defections (the Flyers drafted Anton but an error occured because of his age).
What was the situation with the Stastnys?

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03-23-2010, 12:31 PM
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Seems like a great read. I am a bit busy now but will definitely read up on it when I get home from school.

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03-23-2010, 12:39 PM
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What was the situation with the Stastnys?
The Flyers drafted Anton in a late round but there was a disagreement with his age which proved the Flyers wrong. At the time, the Czechs were under Communist rule so to get them to North America required defections. The Flyers employed a guy on the inside who promised to deliver not only Anton but his two brothers. It was a done deal, except the individual took off with the advance money and disappeared. The Flyers attempted legal resolve but it was for naught. The "free agents" Anton and Peter Stastny joined Quebec because one of the Nordiques execs contacted them while the Czech team was playing in Austria. From there, the players defected to Canada. Marian (the third brother) joined later.

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03-23-2010, 12:42 PM
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The disappointing thing to me is with a cap now in place and them raking money hand over fist even more so, they should have some of the top scouts and a top scouting dept in the league. Not sure they do. They should be able to go to areas other teams wont spend to go to. Maybe they do and we just donít know it. Doesnít seem like it.
Supposedly we got MA Bourdon because nobody else felt like going all the way up to Rouyn to scout him.

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03-23-2010, 12:47 PM
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The Flyers should bring in talent from every country. Except Russia.

Philadelphia has a tradition of handing those ****ing commie ******** their ***** on a platter to them.

Who are we to forget the efforts of Ed van Impe and Rocky Balboa?

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03-23-2010, 12:53 PM
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Seems like a great read. I am a bit busy now but will definitely read up on it when I get home from school.
Good find. I didn't read into it, either, but caught the name Rudy Tajcnar, a Czech defector. I'm not sure if it was mentioned in those links. He played for the Maine Mariners (AHL) and the Flyers went head-over-heels and employed an individual named Hana Strnad (sp.) through the University of Maine in order to accomodate him and familiarize him with English. The Flyers paid a hefty sum, at the time (chump change, today), to get him to Maine. That worked, but he couldn't play the game in N.A.

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03-23-2010, 01:15 PM
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Supposedly we got MA Bourdon because nobody else felt like going all the way up to Rouyn to scout him.
I have a hard time believing that as he played in juniors, not some obscure league somewhere. Teams may not have scouted him heavily but they could have very easily.

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03-23-2010, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
The Flyers drafted Anton in a late round but there was a disagreement with his age which proved the Flyers wrong. At the time, the Czechs were under Communist rule so to get them to North America required defections. The Flyers employed a guy on the inside who promised to deliver not only Anton but his two brothers. It was a done deal, except the individual took off with the advance money and disappeared. The Flyers attempted legal resolve but it was for naught. The "free agents" Anton and Peter Stastny joined Quebec because one of the Nordiques execs contacted them while the Czech team was playing in Austria. From there, the players defected to Canada. Marian (the third brother) joined later.
Thank you, MSE, for the info. That's some awful luck.

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I have a hard time believing that as he played in juniors, not some obscure league somewhere. Teams may not have scouted him heavily but they could have very easily.
I never bought that either. I know Redline was never high on him. They had him ranked as one of the worst skaters in the entire draft and also had him as one of the most overrated.

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