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#72: Thrashers @ Flyers - March 21, 2010 - 7:00 PM (ET)

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03-22-2010, 01:34 AM
  #601
Garbage Goal
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
More then likely we are going to get anywhere from the 5-8 seed. This team is not playing well at all. not scoring enough, goalies giving up bad goals at bad times. in March and heading into April for a playoff team that is not a good thing.
You're assuming that this team doesn't rebound at all though. It's not like this team hasn't been in a slump before. The last time we were in a massive slump our old coach got fired and the team rebounded really well. I don't see how they can't start playing well again. It's not like the playoffs has started yet.

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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
I never said he didn't have flaws, but they suited our defense better and we were winning games and move the puck out of our zone better.

The reality is the team won games with him, he was playing on par with Emery, our actual starter.

He was playing on par with Emery? You've got to be kidding me. Emery was injured most of the year and the only way you could think Leighton was as good as Emery is if you're a stat junkie. Any person who knows hockey and watched our games could tell that a lot of Leighton's fundamental flaws were covered up by how well the team played in front of him.

I don't see how you can fault Boosh for having the team play better in front of Leighton then in front of him.


Remove those 2 soft goals and what would the score be? You can add and subtract right? I guess you'll do the reading and I'll do the math

Once again, it looks like you don't know how to read. This point has been covered countless times in this topic already. Boucher is a quintessential backup and technically our third string goalie. He did perfectly well the last two games and as long as he gives up two goals I'm happy (heck, I'd be happy with 2 goals against with any goalie in net). Take away even one of those two soft goals and I'm perfectly fine with how he played. A backup/third-string goalie is allowed to let in a bad goal every once in a while. If you expect better then that then your expectations are too high.

I'm expecting a goalie (backup or not) to make routine saves. If your expectations are lower then that, well you are the most pessimistic person I ever met.

Because, according to you, being realistic is the same thing as having lower expectations and being pessimistic. I expect Boucher to play well. I don't care if lets a five mile per hour slider from center ice as long as it's the only goal he gives up.

I don't see how you can criticize Boucher for being a little worse at making the initial save, but you don't criticize Leighton for giving out massive rebounds like candy.
....

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03-22-2010, 01:37 AM
  #602
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
You stated that I implied Boosh made the Flyers lose their last two games. Something that I never said, thus my response.

The defense was horrible on the 5-2 loss, but tonight Boosh gave his team no chance to win.
Of course you didn't flat-out say that Boosh lost these two games. Apparently you don't know what the word "implied" means though.

Tonight Boosh had a bad game, but it was the team in front of him that didn't give themselves a chance to win, not Boosh. Or, if you want, it was the entire team, Boosh included, that didn't give themselves a chance to win.

I don't see any way that you can justify giving Boosh the only blame for this loss.

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03-22-2010, 01:39 AM
  #603
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No, we didn't.

Leighton was playing well, there's no questioning that; but there is a huge difference between playing well behind a stifling defense that clears out your many rebounds and playing well through the playoffs. If you honestly believe that the other teams in the playoffs would not have been able to exploit his flaws over a seven game series, then I don't really know what to say.

I agree that mortgaging more of our future for a top-flight goaltender may not have been worthwhile. No, I would not trade Carter for Vokoun, or JVR/Giroux for Price. But I think, if you look back to the deadline, most people were PO'd at Holmgren for not even attempting to address goaltending, and that obviously has come around to bite us in the rear...just like typical Flyers laissez faire goaltending management usually does.

And one might say hindsight is 20/20, but people were saying all along that Leighton's magical run would come to an end...and it has. Maybe nobody predicted it would happen as he slowly stumbled his way back into the net after playing the puck in a situation he didn't have to, but people questioned the security of the most important single position on the ice, and look what's happened.
You guy's make way to many assumptions.

That anyone who thinks Leighton had a chance in the playoffs means we ignore his giant flaws, and the probability that he would more the likely fail.

But look at Giguer, hes a crappy goalie now, but he played over his head and won a cup. (With Pronger I might add).

It happens, but NOT LIKELY.

Another is that Holmgren didn't even try to address the goalie situation. Do you really think teams weren't trying to rip the Flyers off because they where stuck. I am not a Holmgrn defender, but even if he made a move he would have been chastised.

I mean I would place more blame on the horrible medical staff that didn't address and report the seriousness of Emery's injury earlier, so the GM could have more time.

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03-22-2010, 01:41 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
Leighton wouldnt even have a save percentage of .900 on most teams. He is what he is. The team in front of him helped him out ALOT.
True, but that's not really a bad thing. There have been examples in the past of mediocre goalies made out to look great because of the team that played in front of them. No team is going to be perfect. The Flyers' weakness has been and continues to be goal tending along with the inability to put out a consistent effort. The only way I see this team making the playoffs and getting past the first round is if Boucher manages to get hot or if the team decides to play in front of Boucher like they did in front of Leighton. Nothing in the past few weeks makes me believe that either is going to happen, unfortunately.

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03-22-2010, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
You're assuming that this team doesn't rebound at all though. It's not like this team hasn't been in a slump before. The last time we were in a massive slump our old coach got fired and the team rebounded really well. I don't see how they can't start playing well again. It's not like the playoffs has started yet.



....
I don't know why you comment inside of a quote, that is pretty annoying.

So I'm just not gonna waste my time text editing and ignore these.

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03-22-2010, 01:43 AM
  #606
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Of course you didn't flat-out say that Boosh lost these two games. Apparently you don't know what the word "implied" means though.

Tonight Boosh had a bad game, but it was the team in front of him that didn't give themselves a chance to win, not Boosh. Or, if you want, it was the entire team, Boosh included, that didn't give themselves a chance to win.

I don't see any way that you can justify giving Boosh the only blame for this loss.
Then I guess you don't understand that your previous comment also "implied" that Booosh was at no fault this game.

But If you still want to ignore what I'm saying and cherry pick sentences go ahead.

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03-22-2010, 01:44 AM
  #607
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
I don't know why you comment inside of a quote, that is pretty annoying.

So I'm just not gonna waste my time text editing and ignore these.
Awesome?

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03-22-2010, 01:45 AM
  #608
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Another is that Holmgren didn't even try to address the goalie situation. Do you really think teams weren't trying to rip the Flyers off because they where stuck. I am not a Holmgrn defender, but even if he made a move he would have been chastised.

I mean I would place more blame on the horrible medical staff that didn't address and report the seriousness of Emery's injury earlier, so the GM could have more time.
According to the Flyers, there is no goalie situation (or wasn't until Leighton got hurt). How many of them actually believe that is another story.

Anyway, Holmgren ****ed any chance the Flyers had at making a move for a goalie by announcing Emery's injury when there was still time before the trade deadline went into effect.

Also, it's not the fact that Holmgren didn't make a move for a goalie, it's that he couldn't because of previous failings (Randy Jones, etc.).

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03-22-2010, 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Then I guess you don't understand that your previous comment also "implied" that Booosh was at no fault this game.

But If you still want to ignore what I'm saying and cherry pick sentences go ahead.
How am I "cherry picking" sentences? Once again, please be more specific next time.

Also, how did I imply that Boosh was at no fault for this game? You said that Boosh hasn't been able to string together 2 wins in a row. Then I replied by saying that these two games weren't his fault. There's a complete difference between saying that he's at no fault and that the games weren't solely his fault.

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03-22-2010, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by nosnhoj View Post
According to the Flyers, there is no goalie situation (or wasn't until Leighton got hurt). How many of them actually believe that is another story.

Anyway, Holmgren ****ed any chance the Flyers had at making a move for a goalie by announcing Emery's injury when there was still time before the trade deadline went into effect.

Also, it's not the fact that Holmgren didn't make a move for a goalie, it's that he couldn't because of previous failings (Randy Jones, etc.).
Like I said I am not a Holmgren defender. Hes made some major Rutard moves and some good moves. Randy Jones Contract + Re-entry waiver were giant Rutard moves.

Not selling whats left of our future for a "starting" goalie at deadline, when team is playing well. I really can't get angry, but I won't give him props.

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03-22-2010, 01:51 AM
  #611
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Like I said I am not a Holmgren defender. Hes made some major Rutard moves and some good moves. Randy Jones Contract + Re-entry waiver were giant Rutard moves.

Not selling whats left of our future for a "starting" goalie at deadline, when team is playing well. I really can't get angry, but I won't give him props.
There's no knowing what he could have gotten at the deadline or for what price because no goalies were moved at the deadline and because Holmgren said himself that he didn't look into getting a goalie. So, in short, there's no way of telling that it would have cost us our future because for all we know he didn't even look into getting a goalie.

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03-22-2010, 01:52 AM
  #612
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You guy's make way to many assumptions.

That anyone who thinks Leighton had a chance in the playoffs means we ignore his giant flaws, and the probability that he would more the likely fail.

But look at Giguer, hes a crappy goalie now, but he played over his head and won a cup. (With Pronger I might add).

It happens, but NOT LIKELY.

Another is that Holmgren didn't even try to address the goalie situation. Do you really think teams weren't trying to rip the Flyers off because they where stuck. I am not a Holmgrn defender, but even if he made a move he would have been chastised.

I mean I would place more blame on the horrible medical staff that didn't address and report the seriousness of Emery's injury earlier, so the GM could have more time.
Are you really trying to convince me that Leighton is better than Giguere, or even on par with him?

Giguere didn't play out of his mind the year they won the Cup. Remember when he won the Conn Smythe in a losing effort to the Devils?

So that makes two sparkling playoff runs all of the way tot he finals, whereas Leighton has never even established himself as an NHL backup until his very good hot streak this year, during which he never played as well as Giguere routinely has for years - but rather, benefited from a very good defense in front of him. Yes, he was very, very good on first shots for us, but Giggy is equally good and doesn't have the horrible recovery, lateral movement, and rebound control.

Giguere is a very good goaltender. He was supplanted in Anaheim by another very good goaltender who was younger and cheaper. He (and his admittedly inflated contract) became expendable. That's how these things work in the salary cap world.

Also, Giguere has 2 shut outs, a .914, and and 2.46 in his ten games this year with Toronto.

How you can try to tell me Leighton can do what Giguere has done twice is beyond me, dude.

I never said that teams weren't trying to rip us off. If you read my post, I was saying that we shouldn't have gambled this year if the price was too high. But Holmgren admitted in an interview that he never made a call about reportedly available goalies. If you're left with Leighton and Boucher, it is your responsibility to at least see what's available. It's not even just a sleight against them - as the GM, he should be calling in on every possible opportunity to upgrade our team.

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03-22-2010, 01:53 AM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
There's no knowing what he could have gotten at the deadline or for what price because no goalies were moved at the deadline and because Holmgren said himself that he didn't look into getting a goalie. So, in short, there's no way of telling that it would have cost us our future because for all we know he didn't even look into getting a goalie.
Exactly we don't know, but might as well blame him anyways right?

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03-22-2010, 01:56 AM
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There's no knowing what he could have gotten at the deadline or for what price because no goalies were moved at the deadline and because Holmgren said himself that he didn't look into getting a goalie. So, in short, there's no way of telling that it would have cost us our future because for all we know he didn't even look into getting a goalie.
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Exactly we don't know, but might as well blame him anyways right?
You don't get it.

Nobody is saying he should have traded for a goalie if the price was too high and sold out the rest of our meager future. They're just saying that he didn't even think about the possibility. And that's retarded when your tandem going into the playoffs is Leighton and Boucher, no matter how good of a hot streak Leights was on.

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03-22-2010, 01:59 AM
  #615
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Exactly we don't know, but might as well blame him anyways right?
Like the other poster said, you don't get it at all. It's hilarious that you were posting about us making too many assumptions, but then you yourself make a massive assumption that we blame him for not being able to get a goalie.

We blame him for the goalies that we entered the year with and for the fact that he admitted himself that he didn't even look for goalies. Now, he could have been lying, who knows? But if he isn't then that's just insane to think that he was fine with the tandem that we had going into the playoffs.

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03-22-2010, 02:07 AM
  #616
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Are you really trying to convince me that Leighton is better than Giguere?

Giguere didn't play out of his mind the year they won the Cup. Remember when he won the Conn Smythe in a losing effort to the Devils?

So that makes two sparkling playoff runs all of the way tot he finals, whereas Leighton has never even established himself as an NHL backup until his very good hot streak this year, during which he never played as well as Giguere routinely has for years - but rather, benefited from a very good defense in front of him. Yes, he was very, very good on first shots for us, but Giggy is equally good and doesn't have the horrible recovery, lateral movement, and rebound control.

Giguere is a very good goaltender. He was supplanted in Anaheim by another very good goaltender who was younger and cheaper. He (and his admittedly inflated contract) became expendable. That's how these things work in the salary cap world.

Also, Giguere has 2 shut outs, a .914, and and 2.46 in his ten games this year with Toronto.

How you can try to tell me Leighton can do what Giguere has done twice is beyond me, dude.

I never said that teams weren't trying to rip us off. If you read my post, I was saying that we shouldn't have gambled this year if the price was too high. But Holmgren admitted in an interview that he never made a call about reportedly available goalies. If you're left with Leighton and Boucher, it is your responsibility to at least see what's available. It's not even just a sleight against them - as the GM, he should be calling in on every possible opportunity to upgrade our team.
Well Giguere barely hit the .900 SV % last year, and was repeating this trend this year. But he has been somewhat hot after a trade.

I'll admit defeat to the Giguere comparison. Probably wasn't my best choice, but it is 2am and I got to lazy to look up goalies.

I am not say he could do what Giguere did, what I was trying to say is Leighton could have seen some success in the playoffs. The team obviously feels more comfortable with how he plays the puck and where he sends his rebounds.

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03-22-2010, 02:12 AM
  #617
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You don't get it.

Nobody is saying he should have traded for a goalie if the price was too high and sold out the rest of our meager future. They're just saying that he didn't even think about the possibility. And that's retarded when your tandem going into the playoffs is Leighton and Boucher, no matter how good of a hot streak Leights was on.
I think you guys are referring to the trade deadline quote, were he said himself he did not make a call.

Now I don't know when he said it, so a quote with a link would be nice.

If he said it at the trade deadline, and you don't think he made numerous calls before or during the Olympic break then common. Or the chance that teams called him.

If he specifically said well before the trade deadline that he wasn't going to try and deal for a goalie then that is different.

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03-22-2010, 02:13 AM
  #618
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Well Giguere barely hit the .900 SV % last year, and was repeating this trend this year. But he has been somewhat hot after a trade.

I'll admit defeat to the Giguere comparison. Probably wasn't my best choice, but it is 2am and I got to lazy to look up goalies.

I am not say he could do what Giguere did, what I was trying to say is Leighton could have seen some success in the playoffs. The team obviously feels more comfortable with how he plays the puck and where he sends his rebounds.
I do think Giguere is on the downside of his career, unless the change of scene has really revitalized him. But he has already had a finer career than Leighton is likely to have.

I'll grant you that Leighton could have had some success. I think this team will most likely be out in the first round (even with Leighton), but I would not have been surprised to see them manage to get past the first round, if Leighton and the team in front of him played as well as they were going into the Olympics. But I absolutely do not think they would have been anywhere even remotely close to the Cup.


At the end of the day, goaltending hasn't been this team's biggest problem. The inability to play well from top to bottom has been. On any given night, either our offense or our defense won't show up (usually the offense), and both are rarely intact at once (but we usually look great when they are).

Had a better goalie been available at the deadline, we may have been able to get that legit goalie who can steal games for us when the rest of the team is out of synch, but neither Boosh nor Leighton is that guy at all...but when the team fires on all cylinders, either should be good enough to at least give us a chance (till teams get 7 games to figure them out, that is).

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03-22-2010, 02:15 AM
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Like the other poster said, you don't get it at all. It's hilarious that you were posting about us making too many assumptions, but then you yourself make a massive assumption that we blame him for not being able to get a goalie.

We blame him for the goalies that we entered the year with and for the fact that he admitted himself that he didn't even look for goalies. Now, he could have been lying, who knows? But if he isn't then that's just insane to think that he was fine with the tandem that we had going into the playoffs.
Lumping those two statements together don't make them the same problem. If he really wasn't looking for a goalie at all this year, then why where there so many rumors?

If your problem is risking the goalie situation with Emery at the begging, then go ahead an complain. If you are complaining about not making a deadline deal I can't agree with you.

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03-22-2010, 02:17 AM
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I think you guys are referring to the trade deadline quote, were he said himself he did not make a call.

Now I don't know when he said it, so a quote with a link would be nice.

If he said it at the trade deadline, and you don't think he made numerous calls before or during the Olympic break then common. Or the chance that teams called him.

If he specifically said well before the trade deadline that he wasn't going to try and deal for a goalie then that is different.
Nobody knows for sure what happens behind closed doors, or what he discussed during the Olympic break.

All we know is (and I don't still have a direct link to the article that printed the quote) that after the deadline expired, he said "I didn't make any calls about a goaltender."

I can't say with 100% certainty that he did not (nor have I made that claim). But given that quote, it's a lot less of a stretch to assume he thought Leighton was legit than it is to guess that he was working the phones frantically over the break.

And since we supposedly didn't know how bad Emery was until a couple of days before the deadline (and after the break) I have to assume he didn't make calls then, either.

Therefore, I'm guessing that he was totally confident with Leighton and made no attempt to even bother opening the sales flyer, as it were, and seeing what might be in stock. And that's a stupid thing to do with any position on your team if players worth having may be available; but when your goalies are Leighton and Boucher, you are entirely remiss in your duty if you don't make at least one call on deadline day to see if you can strike a bargain.

And even if he had worked the phones over the break (which I don't think he did), he's still dumb for not calling on deadline day....because the deals are only likely to get better approaching the deadline, if teams really want to move an asset they can't control anymore and get something back.

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03-22-2010, 02:20 AM
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Yea some of you are confused or making up stuff... Homer did look at goalies at the trade deadline.. hense the whole "Vokoun for Carter thing". I HIGHLY doubt it was the Florida GM calling Homer first. I know Homer has been an idiot, but its foolish to think he didnt look for a goalie.

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03-22-2010, 03:45 AM
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Nobody knows for sure what happens behind closed doors, or what he discussed during the Olympic break.

All we know is (and I don't still have a direct link to the article that printed the quote) that after the deadline expired, he said "I didn't make any calls about a goaltender."

To be fair, of course he's going to say that. He wanted to give Leighton confidence. Nobody wants to tell the guy who's going to be the starter for the playoffs that "we really really wanted someone better, but unfortunately we're stuck with you"

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03-22-2010, 08:01 AM
  #623
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I think you guys are referring to the trade deadline quote, were he said himself he did not make a call.

Now I don't know when he said it, so a quote with a link would be nice.

If he said it at the trade deadline, and you don't think he made numerous calls before or during the Olympic break then common. Or the chance that teams called him.

If he specifically said well before the trade deadline that he wasn't going to try and deal for a goalie then that is different.
I saw the interview when he was asked about looking for goalies and he said he didn't call anyone. He was being ironic, because the next thing he said was 'of course when they saw the announcement about Ray, a couple teams with goalies available called me.''

By that, of course, he meant the phones were ringing off the hook, both ways, with people selling trash for Giroux....

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03-22-2010, 09:03 AM
  #624
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Like I said I am not a Holmgren defender. Hes made some major Rutard moves and some good moves. Randy Jones Contract + Re-entry waiver were giant Rutard moves.

Not selling whats left of our future for a "starting" goalie at deadline, when team is playing well. I really can't get angry, but I won't give him props.
Well, here's the problem. I don't blame Holmgren in March for not making a trade for a goalie because we didn't have anything to trade. However, I do blame him for his decisions in the past. He went into this season--the season where he clearly thought the team could win (Pronger deal)--with question marks in goal. He did, there's no arguing that, and it's a huge gamble.

On top of that, the starting point for most trades this deadline was a 2nd round pick. We didn't have one. Why? Because we traded it to LA along with Gauthier just so they would take him off our hands. So we have that 2nd round pick gone b/c of our ****-up, then we have LA taking Jones and leaving us with half of his salary. That's two costly errors. I blame Holmgren b/c he still doesn't seem to get that salary cap moves/moves in general have future consequences, not just immediate ones. On top of all of that, it's irresponsible if he believes that we were set with goalies at the deadline. He said it, but if he really believes that, he needs to be canned ASAP.

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03-22-2010, 11:01 AM
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Haute Couturier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
I saw the interview when he was asked about looking for goalies and he said he didn't call anyone. He was being ironic, because the next thing he said was 'of course when they saw the announcement about Ray, a couple teams with goalies available called me.''

By that, of course, he meant the phones were ringing off the hook, both ways, with people selling trash for Giroux....
Does he not know how to negotiate? Every time a goalie is dealt the return is nothing close to Carter or Giroux.

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