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Old
03-21-2010, 05:06 PM
  #1
oceanchild
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is kyle wellwood clutch

I think a lot of fans including myself have been disappointed with the numbers that Kyle Wellwood has put up in his time here in Vancouver. He is most defiantly an enigma and a player that has a great deal of offensive skill. His point totals are
GP G A P
2009/2010 65 11 11 22
2008/2009 74 18 9 27
2008/2009
Playoffs 10 1 5 6

That out of the way I think most would agree he is playing very solid hockey right now and has been since the Olympic break. It has been discussed that he plays better when he is heavy and coming to camp in shape might have had a negative effect on his abilities. Although counter intuitive he would be easier to bump off the puck I guess (it doesn’t really make sense to me). So last year he was great down the stretch and the line of Raymond, Wellwood and Benier was dynamite in the playoff especially against Chicago. I feel as though for a second year in a row he is elevating his game at the end of the season. So I think we should keep him maybe as a fourth line center or in case Hodgson doesn’t make the team out of camp. If he has other solid playoffs to me it doesn’t matter what he does in the regular season if he is good in the playoffs as this team as enough scoring without him. I think we all agree we have the talent to win it all and clutch players are key to our success.

Thoughts?

yep could the mod change the title and spell his name right as clearly I lack in my editorial skills


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Old
03-21-2010, 05:25 PM
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He is when someone is trying to take his cheeseburger away.

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03-21-2010, 05:27 PM
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yes.

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03-21-2010, 05:29 PM
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yes.
I like your charisma!

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03-21-2010, 05:31 PM
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Wellwodd. He'd get made fun of even more.

Yes, he is super clutch or really comfortable fat.

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03-21-2010, 05:36 PM
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He's not clutch, he's just finally playing up to the level that he can. Let's not forget that this is a guy that had 45 points in his first season and 42 points in 48 games in his second season.

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03-21-2010, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Who is is kyle wellwodd?
After seeing your quotes about Ryan Kesler not having "defensive smarts" or "the ability to be even an average defensive forward in the NHL" I'm starting to realize why you're assessment of Kyle Wellwood has been so off the mark. Some people just don't have an eye for talent.

I'll be eagerly anticipating your assessment of Cody Hodgson's play in the coming years. Two-way centremen seem to be your area of expertise.

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03-21-2010, 07:03 PM
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Wellwood has demonstrated some grit, last night and last play-offs. I guess there is a zone he gets into. I wish he could access it more regularly. As far as his point totals, he is a defensive forward on the third line and is pretty good at it. Goals and assists come easier in the top six and Wellwood has shown he can make use of his time there. I expect he will return next season and continue in his current role.

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03-21-2010, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JuniorNelson View Post
Wellwood has demonstrated some grit, last night and last play-offs. I guess there is a zone he gets into. I wish he could access it more regularly. As far as his point totals, he is a defensive forward on the third line and is pretty good at it. Goals and assists come easier in the top six and Wellwood has shown he can make use of his time there. I expect he will return next season and continue in his current role.
Enigma is an understatement. He's such a weird player, former offensive specialist who is turning into a decent defensive guy - goes from being horrible for half the year to solid for the latter half.

Personally I think the team needs a quicker bottom 6 centre who is adept at penalty killing, I'd say the chances of him returning next season are 50/50.

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Old
03-21-2010, 07:43 PM
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He is playing like a man possessed!



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Old
03-21-2010, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
After seeing your quotes about Ryan Kesler not having "defensive smarts" or "the ability to be even an average defensive forward in the NHL" I'm starting to realize why you're assessment of Kyle Wellwood has been so off the mark. Some people just don't have an eye for talent.

I'll be eagerly anticipating your assessment of Cody Hodgson's play in the coming years. Two-way centremen seem to be your area of expertise.
Hodgson cannot play up to NHL standards and gets disappointed easily - something about his back check, I think according to Alain Vigneault.

Wellwodd has had a couple of good games and a whole bushel of bad ones this season.

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03-21-2010, 08:00 PM
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He's playing for a new contract for next year on the good ship Nucklehead.
Probably too little too late

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03-21-2010, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Hodgson cannot play up to NHL standards and gets disappointed easily - something about his back check, I think according to Alain Vigneault.

Wellwodd has had a couple of good games and a whole bushel of bad ones this season.


Sure he has.

And Ryan Kesler will be lucky to be an average defensive forward in the NHL.

I sure hope you don't see a lot of potential in Cody Hodgson. It'll further cement my belief he'll be an impact player at the NHL level.

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Old
03-21-2010, 09:23 PM
  #14
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post


Sure he has.

And Ryan Kesler will be lucky to be an average defensive forward in the NHL.

I sure hope you don't see a lot of potential in Cody Hodgson. It'll further cement my belief he'll be an impact player at the NHL level.
As I pointed out with numerous examples that opinion of Kesler was widely held at the time of his draft and during the early years of his career ... and with good reason. Gritty third line centre was a common assessment - as forecast by Hockey's Future.

NHL Central Scouting:
Quote:
Ryan Kesler, C
Ht: 6-1 1/2 Wt: 195 Born: 8/31/84
2002-03 with Ohio State (CCHA): 40 GP, 11 G, 20 A, 31 PTS, 44 PIM
NHL Central Scouting Rank: 16th among North American skaters

Could become the third Ohio State product to be taken in the first round in as many years, joining R.J. Umberger and David Steckel. Scouts think he has limited offensive potential but like his hard-nosed attitude and project him as a third- or fourth-line center. Has good speed for his size. Averaged a point a game at the World Junior Championships as a member of the U.S. team. Ranked 16th among North American skaters by NHL Central Scouting, he'll probably go later than that in the first round.
Ben Kuzma of the Province on his draft:
Quote:
The knock on Kesler is that he's not offensively gifted and needs to get stronger.
Burke sticks to the list: Had Kesler ranked higher so he took him over Tambellini; [Final Edition]
Ben Kuzma. The Province. Vancouver, B.C.: Jun 22, 2003. pg. A.86
As Gary Kingston noted Kesler was more like the latter Trevor Linden rather than Version 1 before his trade:
Quote:
If there's a cautionary note for the Canuck faithful in the Kesler-Linden comparison, it's the fact the 6'1" 195-pound native of Livonia, Mich., is more like a latter-day Linden -- solid defensively, great in the face-off circle, scores about once a month -- than the fresh-faced kid out of Medicine Hat who strung together a succession of 30-goal seasons early in his career.
Canucks hope Kesler a keeper: Ohio State centre likened to '88 first-rounder Trevor Linden; [Final Edition]
Gary Kingston. The Vancouver Sun. Vancouver, B.C.: Jun 23, 2003. pg. E.1.Fro
Iain MacIntyre's view:
Quote:
First rounder looks solid: Ryan Kesler determined to stand out at prospects camp; [Final Edition]
Iain MacIntyre. The Vancouver Sun. Vancouver, B.C.: Sep 8, 2003. pg. E.5

Solid, not spectacular, is Kesler's game.

Central Scouting pegged him as safe NHL prospect, a player likely neither to thrill nor disappoint anyone. He has decent size (6'1" and 195 pounds), a wide, strong skating stride, and a defensive conscience. Solid, not spectacular.
So it would seem my take on Kesler was much the same as many others. To claim otherwise is a complete re-write of history.

Hodgson has been showing significant offensive development since his draft to go with his good defensive play - Pat Quinn was very complimentary of his defensive skills. Hodgson may well develop into a good PK'er at the NHL level as he seems to have the smarts and the drive. If so then he could well be a very good fit next season as the third line centre.

A number of posters see Wellwood miscast in his current role - as pointed out NFITO he has been a round peg in a square hole which is probably the best description.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=24574133

He is here because Hodgson did not make the team as expected and there is a personnel shortage at that position in the organization. Vigneault has been clear on that point throughout the season.

I see Wellwood as nothing more than a stopgap solution because Gillis has been unable to come up with a replacement. As was noted by Vigneault at the trade deadline the Canucks were hoping to be able to upgrade the third line centre position but Gillis was unable to make a deal.

You have differing view, so be it. Others including me, disagree.

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03-21-2010, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
As I pointed out with numerous examples that opinion of Kesler was widely held at the time of his draft and during the early years of his career ... and with good reason. Gritty third line centre was a common assessment - as forecast by Hockey's Future.

---whole bunch of 2003 evaluations used to offset Wetcoaster's 2007 opinion----

So it would seem my take on Kesler was much the same as many others. To claim otherwise is a complete re-write of history.

Hodgson has been showing significant offensive development since his draft to go with his good defensive play - Pat Quinn was very complimentary of his defensive skills. Hodgson may well develop into a good PK'er at the NHL level as he seems to have the smarts and the drive. If so then he could well be a very good fit next season as the third line centre.

A number of posters see Wellwood miscast in his current role - as pointed out NFITO he has been a round peg in a square hole which is probably the best description.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=24574133

He is here because Hodgson did not make the team as expected and there is a personnel shortage at that position in the organization. Vigneault has been clear on that point throughout the season.

I see Wellwood as nothing more than a stopgap solution because Gillis has been unable to come up with a replacement. As was noted by Vigneault at the trade deadline the Canucks were hoping to be able to upgrade the third line centre position but Gillis was unable to make a deal.

You have differing view, so be it. Others including me, disagree.
On the offensive stuff, sure. No-one expected Kesler to score 70 points for this team.

However, your opinion of Kesler's defensive play was absolutely ridiculous. You actually uttered this statement :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
You can teach defense but I am not sure that Kesler has the ability to be even an average NHL defensive forward.
... only two seasons before he was nominated for the Selke, and at a point where he had already established himself as a quality #3 center/PK guys for this team, and was only 22 years old.

We had a long discussion of it in this thread and you don't come out too well in hindsight :

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...+Conroy&page=3

I still have no idea what you were watching to come out with some of that crap.
_________

As for Wellwood, your mis-evaluation of his quality play this season is eerily similar to your mis-evaluation of Kesler's solid play a few years ago.

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Old
03-22-2010, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
As I pointed out with numerous examples that opinion of Kesler was widely held at the time of his draft and during the early years of his career

So it would seem my take on Kesler was much the same as many others. To claim otherwise is a complete re-write of history.
Nice try. Not one single criticism of Ryan Kesler's defensive game in any of those articles you quoted.

Had you said Kesler was a good defensive centre with limited offensive upside you wouldn't come away looking so out to lunch. Kesler's offensive development has certainly been somewhat unexpected, his solid defensive play however has not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post

As for Wellwood, your mis-evaluation of his quality play this season is eerily similar to your mis-evaluation of Kesler's solid play a few years ago.
Exactly.

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03-22-2010, 01:20 AM
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Wet's just jealous cuz Kesler's prettier than him. It's okay, he's prettier than most of us anyway.

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03-22-2010, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
As I pointed out with numerous examples that opinion of Kesler was widely held at the time of his draft and during the early years of his career ... and with good reason. Gritty third line centre was a common assessment - as forecast by Hockey's Future.

NHL Central Scouting:


Ben Kuzma of the Province on his draft:


As Gary Kingston noted Kesler was more like the latter Trevor Linden rather than Version 1 before his trade:


Iain MacIntyre's view:


So it would seem my take on Kesler was much the same as many others. To claim otherwise is a complete re-write of history.

...
No one's going to argue about the draft. Kesler was billed as the ideal 3rd line checking center, and that's the most we were hoping for. Any hopes of offense, and much of the rebutal, likely started appearing 2 years later after the 04-05 AHL season when he scored 30 goals, matching pace with the much more hyped Canadian golden boy Mike Richards, another projected 3rd line center type.

Many fans like myself started wondering if Kesler didn't have some offensive upside in the NHL as well, but were quite firmly rebuked by another group of fans. Mike Richards had it, but apparently "Stone hands" Kesler's offense would never translate to the NHL. This was not general assessment of professional scouts & journalists, they were busy looking at the next group of draft picks, but rather just plain old anonymous fans on a message board. And they were all flat out wrong.

And yes, Kyle Wellwood is clutch!

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Old
03-22-2010, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
On the offensive stuff, sure. No-one expected Kesler to score 70 points for this team.

However, your opinion of Kesler's defensive play was absolutely ridiculous. You actually uttered this statement :



... only two seasons before he was nominated for the Selke, and at a point where he had already established himself as a quality #3 center/PK guys for this team, and was only 22 years old.

We had a long discussion of it in this thread and you don't come out too well in hindsight :

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...+Conroy&page=3

I still have no idea what you were watching to come out with some of that crap.
_________

As for Wellwood, your mis-evaluation of his quality play this season is eerily similar to your mis-evaluation of Kesler's solid play a few years ago.
At the time it was the beginning of the 2006 season and there were concerns about his development. The staemnt needs to be read in context pf the entire post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
He has demonstrated no NHL level offensive skills - slow release, poor shot, unable to consistently give and receive a pass at speed, etc.

His "hockey sense" is also not NHL level and he is often out of position defensively. He does not seem to understand how to cut down passing lanes and take time and space away from opposing players. He has to try to compensate with his speed which is top-notch but the NHL is littered with failed prospects who could skate like the wind and do little else.

You can teach defense but I am not sure that Kesler has the ability to be even an average NHL defensive forward.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=6866269

A valid comment at the time and as you recall he had just received an offer sheet. Kesler became a restricted free agent after a less than stellar 2005-06 and was qualified by the Canucks at $564,000; but on September 12, 2006, Kesler signed a one-year, $1.9-million offer sheet with the Philadelphia Flyers. Many posters thought that it would have been best to not match the Flyer offer sheet and take the compensation.

As I said you need to read the entire post and put it into context.

Somehow a third line grinder as he was termed in scouting reports seems to fit. He was not being touted as an elite defensive forward.

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03-22-2010, 03:11 AM
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Wellwood is a situational player. Just like Demo.

You gotta light motivational fires under each player to get some production.

For Wellwood, he seems to pick it up when a) He's about to get canned and b) close to the playoffs or c) Someone 's having a cheeseburger picnic after the game.

Demo is obviously when's he playing for his country.

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03-22-2010, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
At the time it was the beginning of the 2006 season and there were concerns about his development. The staemnt needs to be read in context pf the entire post:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=6866269

A valid comment at the time and as you recall he had just received an offer sheet. Kesler became a restricted free agent after a less than stellar 2005-06 and was qualified by the Canucks at $564,000; but on September 12, 2006, Kesler signed a one-year, $1.9-million offer sheet with the Philadelphia Flyers. Many posters thought that it would have been best to not match the Flyer offer sheet and take the compensation.

As I said you need to read the entire post and put it into context.

Somehow a third line grinder as he was termed in scouting reports seems to fit. He was not being touted as an elite defensive forward.
nothing in the context of your post made that comment any more valid. lol.

as for Wellwood, he pwns Wetcoaster.

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03-22-2010, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
At the time it was the beginning of the 2006 season and there were concerns about his development. The staemnt needs to be read in context pf the entire post:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=6866269

A valid comment at the time and as you recall he had just received an offer sheet. Kesler became a restricted free agent after a less than stellar 2005-06 and was qualified by the Canucks at $564,000; but on September 12, 2006, Kesler signed a one-year, $1.9-million offer sheet with the Philadelphia Flyers. Many posters thought that it would have been best to not match the Flyer offer sheet and take the compensation.

As I said you need to read the entire post and put it into context.

Somehow a third line grinder as he was termed in scouting reports seems to fit. He was not being touted as an elite defensive forward.
I can read and put things into context. And no, it wasn't a valid comment at the time.

At the time, Kesler was already a very good #3 center on a very good defensive team. He was the team's PK icetime leader, and the guy out there in defensive situations at the end of games.

He was already an above-average defensive center at age 22. He was being given the team's prime defensive responsibilities and was the team's most important defensive player.

While there were questions about his offensive upside, *everyone* knew that this was a very good defensive player who, given his age, was almost certainly going to be an excellent defensive player. A 22 y/o getting the responsibilites he was already getting was nearly unheard-of.

To say at that point that 'he was unlikely to be even an average defensive forward' was an absolutely ridiculous, mindbogglingly stupid statement.

You then went on to :

a) say he was, on ability, a $450k minimum wage scrub.
b) an 'AHL Kris Draper, maybe'
c) should be sent to the minors (again, at a time when he was Vigneault's #1 defensive option)

... and on and on.

Your 'evaluation' of his defensive play and weaknesses was absolutely rubbish, even at the time. And I called you on it at the time. To say he was 'poor at closing passing lanes' or 'never intercepted pucks' (he'd been the the team leader in takeaways the previous year) or didn't understand positioning was just a brutal, brutal evaluation.

_________

You've had a bias against this player from the start, for whatever reason. And even admit it at various points in that thread.

Because of your bias, you have always looked for the smallest opportunity to jump on him for whatever reason (exactly what you're doing with Wellwood as well) and ignore anything positive he does. In a different thread a year later, you somehow managed to claim that Vigneault 'questioned his heard' when of course he did nothing of the sort.

Your ignorance of your own biases is often amazing.

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03-22-2010, 12:26 PM
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He's not clutch, he's just finally playing up to the level that he can. Let's not forget that this is a guy that had 45 points in his first season and 42 points in 48 games in his second season.
Makes you wonder what people were so vehemently defending earlier this season.

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03-22-2010, 12:43 PM
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Makes you wonder what people were so vehemently defending earlier this season.
It was his linemates fault earlier. Naturally I'm crediting Hansen and Raymond for elevating Wellwood's play.

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03-22-2010, 02:13 PM
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Wellwood has been OK, we got him for free and he's provided us with some decent 3rd line offensive production and some solid defensive play, neither have really been outstanding. He's replaceable, I wouldn't object to keeping him another year if the price is right. Also to give Hodgson some time to develop in the AHL, or at the very least give us the option of doing so if he has a so-so camp.

I wouldn't object to keeping him around if he has another solid post-season. However, there are usually a lot of those kind of players available in free agency that due to their age don't fit a teams long term plans. Malhotra was one of those types that has been a solid contributor for the Sharks, and unless the cap goes up we're likely to see lots of players like this who got passed over again.

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