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Wake-up Call

View Poll Results: What should be done?
Fire TMac 37 27.01%
Scratch some of the "star" players 60 43.80%
Change captaincy 34 24.82%
Nothing 44 32.12%
Other 28 20.44%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 137. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-22-2010, 01:53 PM
  #76
one2gamble
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Originally Posted by matt trick View Post
On the bright side, Clowe has changed my opinion of him. I felt he was a poorly spent 3.625 million for next season, but he is the type of player you win with.
On the bright side?

Its taken a collapse of epic proportions to get him to play like a power forward again?

I dont know if thats a good thing?

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03-22-2010, 01:56 PM
  #77
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MATT TRICK>>>>great review , I agree 100%

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03-22-2010, 02:05 PM
  #78
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They need to change the culture of the room. I'm for revamping the core. Dw got rid of the wrong players and gave free passes to the wrong ones too. It speaks volumes that he said everyone was available to be moved except Thornton.

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03-22-2010, 02:06 PM
  #79
Gene Parmesan
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The result of last night's game should be a wake up call.

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Old
03-22-2010, 02:06 PM
  #80
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MT,

No problem with most of your analysis, but take it a step further. How did the attitude get there for JT and others? People form their personalities in response to their environment. If the environment doesn't support that personality, most people eventually change.

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03-22-2010, 02:08 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by matt trick View Post
Is this the year?
  • I agree with rolling 4 lines and
  • have been calling for both Ferrerio and Demers for a while. Ferrerio because he is capable of playing better than Staubitz.
  • I have watched the past two games and two things Joe did absolutely disgusted me - dodging a hit and the pass and skate off last night. What a joke.
  • I think McLellan is part of the solution not the problem.
  • I think the team does a bit too much looking up to our big three forwards
  • Despite Joe's failures, Marleau's recent regression, and Nabby's immeasurable five-hole, I do think all three are capable of having a dynamite playoffs.
  • I think Rob Blake will play at the level of a #3 or #4 d-man come second season.
  • Even if Doug Wilson is counting on all of these miracles to happen, I have no idea how he felt this defense would be adequate.
  • Only Boyle is a safe bet to be good come playoffs.
  • If Demers doesn't play, who the hell is going to move the puck during the 30 minutes Boyle isn't playing?
  • On the bright side, Clowe has changed my opinion of him. I felt he was a poorly spent 3.625 million for next season, but he is the type of player you win with.
Shortened the above and reposted for truth. Agree with all the above points. Best players on the Sharks right now are Pavelski and Clowe. The glazed look on the faces of our top 3 forwards needs to be converted to intensity soon. Nabby might be having a glazed look too, but I can't see behind his mask ... though I have noticed him shaking his head a lot .... like ... I can't believe I'm letting these get by.

In all of this discussion, the part that is lacking is the defense and defensive responsibilities. Too many players are getting into our zone, getting free space up the middle, and getting postioning to the inside of the defenseman. If we could start by keeping position on the opposing players, that would be a big help to our struggling Russian goalies mental outlook.

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03-22-2010, 02:08 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
MT,

No problem with most of your analysis, but take it a step further. How did the attitude get there for JT and others? People form their personalities in response to their environment. If the environment doesn't support that personality, most people eventually change.
I would argue that JT came here with that attitude which is exactly why Boston moved him in the first place.

I would also argue that DW created that environment throughout the org.

I would argue that Ricci doesnt buy into it

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Old
03-22-2010, 02:10 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Babcock wears many faces. He was not so animated during his winning year and he didn't have all that many years under his belt. Give me a break, 19 and counting says a lot. It says it is an "Old Boys" club where new ideas aren't welcome. There are 30 teams and 1 cup. It takes some originality to get there. How has Hitch done in Columbus? . . . and he is a cup winner no less.

Why do you need someone with outside respect behind the bench? What is happening with the culture of the club when you need that?

Do some research and figure out why new guys are winning. There are multiple reasons.
So, we have a team with a lot of drive and culture and Heart and, simply unbeatable. The culture is what is missing on this team. The coach is unable to instill ANY Heart on this team as was R.W. The young coach over in Pitt. has an edge over our team here in that, he had a team last playoffs that had loads of Heart and culture and drive. Yes agreed, he was young and was able to get much out of his team but, he did have a goalie that played incredible; we have never had that with Naby. He also had Sid and Malkin whom played with that culture and Heart.

Point is, T.M. simply can't pull it off with this team in the areas discussed above. Yes, other coaches were discussed, not just Quinn so let's be a little realistic here. Just because T.M. came up as an assistant with the Wings doesn't mean he was one able to push our guys. League wide, this team is known to have two leaders whom are incredibly light Hearted, Joe and Patty, followed by a secondary scoring line whom are carbon copies mentally and they definately need that extra push. In your eyes, has T.M. accomplished this? Who knows, maybe one of those other young coaches you have in your head would have the same problem as well if they came over here. Quennville, known to be pretty tough on his guys, in a positive way, would have also been really really good for us. That is another good example as I think you have the wrong idea that I think Quinn should have been our only choice. He was an example.

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Old
03-22-2010, 02:13 PM
  #84
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Wishful thinking, but could it be that the Sharks just gave up Hockey for Lent????? Lets hope

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Old
03-22-2010, 02:21 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WineShark View Post

In all of this discussion, the part that is lacking is the defense and defensive responsibilities. Too many players are getting into our zone, getting free space up the middle, and getting postioning to the inside of the defenseman. If we could start by keeping position on the opposing players, that would be a big help to our struggling Russian goalies mental outlook.
This is the most troubling thing for me to watch. They need to fix this more than anything else.

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Old
03-22-2010, 02:21 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
So, we have a team with a lot of drive and culture and Heart and, simply unbeatable. The culture is what is missing on this team. The coach is unable to instill ANY Heart on this team as was R.W. The young coach over in Pitt. has an edge over our team here in that, he had a team last playoffs that had loads of Heart and culture and drive. Yes agreed, he was young and was able to get much out of his team but, he did have a goalie that played incredible; we have never had that with Naby. He also had Sid and Malkin whom played with that culture and Heart.

Point is, T.M. simply can't pull it off with this team in the areas discussed above. Yes, other coaches were discussed, not just Quinn so let's be a little realistic here. Just because T.M. came up as an assistant with the Wings doesn't mean he was one able to push our guys. League wide, this team is known to have two leaders whom are incredibly light Hearted, Joe and Patty, followed by a secondary scoring line whom are carbon copies mentally and they definately need that extra push. In your eyes, has T.M. accomplished this? Who knows, maybe one of those other young coaches you have in your head would have the same problem as well if they came over here. Quennville, known to be pretty tough on his guys, in a positive way, would have also been really really good for us. That is another good example as I think you have the wrong idea that I think Quinn should have been our only choice. He was an example.
I thought I brought up Quinn first. He is just an extreme example. Many others. Coach Q has his own issues, but he is a very good coach. I don't think he has it to win a cup.

On light-hearted leaders, how did they get that way? Why do they remain that way? The Sharks have run through several personalities in coaching and haven't corrected the issue. It is correctable if the org understands and wants to do it. Just trading out players or coaches without a master plan isn't going to work. That is not where the problem lies. How many rinse and repeat cycles will it take for people to understand that? You are moving to a solution when you stop personalizing responsibility which is a big issue.

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Old
03-22-2010, 02:33 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I thought I brought up Quinn first. He is just an extreme example. Many others. Coach Q has his own issues, but he is a very good coach. I don't think he has it to win a cup.

On light-hearted leaders, how did they get that way? Why do they remain that way? The Sharks have run through several personalities in coaching and haven't corrected the issue. It is correctable if the org understands and wants to do it. Just trading out players or coaches without a master plan isn't going to work. That is not where the problem lies. How many rinse and repeat cycles will it take for people to understand that? You are moving to a solution when you stop personalizing responsibility which is a big issue.
Just the 2 coaches in the last few seasons and both of similar ilk. But, I agree totally, we shouldn't be trading players in any rampant way as then you generally enter a rebuild phase. I don't think we are there yet and shouldn't be for a while but, as usual the strength the leadership begins from above and this lacks incredibly with T.M.

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Old
03-22-2010, 02:44 PM
  #88
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Fire McLellen replace him with Mike Ricci, and teach these players to finish their check on every shift! Wouldn't hurt to bench Blake either.

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Old
03-22-2010, 02:49 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
Just the 2 coaches in the last few seasons and both of similar ilk. But, I agree totally, we shouldn't be trading players in any rampant way as then you generally enter a rebuild phase. I don't think we are there yet and shouldn't be for a while but, as usual the strength the leadership begins from above and this lacks incredibly with T.M.
Please define leadership. On the Sharks, the leadership certainly isn't with the coach and the management is certainly not backing up McLellan enough for him to have it. Shared leadership is the way to go along with shared accountability. Too many within the org have have been given free passes which is a terrible example. I don't think anyone here has any idea how much leadership McLellan has because he has never been given a chance to exercise it. You are still personalizing the issue. Move away from individual blame and you can work towards a solution. Fix the plan before you fix the people be they coaches or players.

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03-22-2010, 02:52 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I thought I brought up Quinn first. He is just an extreme example. Many others. Coach Q has his own issues, but he is a very good coach. I don't think he has it to win a cup.

On light-hearted leaders, how did they get that way? Why do they remain that way? The Sharks have run through several personalities in coaching and haven't corrected the issue. It is correctable if the org understands and wants to do it. Just trading out players or coaches without a master plan isn't going to work. That is not where the problem lies. How many rinse and repeat cycles will it take for people to understand that? You are moving to a solution when you stop personalizing responsibility which is a big issue.
I honestly am not sure what you are getting at hear Easy. Your being pretty vague and I am not sure exactly what you would like to see.

RW and TM are polar opposites.

Ron Wilson:
Deffensively focused
Bad with prospects
Hold's players accountable, publically
Faith in himself
Veteran coach

Todd McLellan:
Offensively focused (what's defense?)
Good with prospects
No personal accountability, period (from what we are told)
Faith in the system
Rookie coach

They literally went as far the opposite direction as they possibly could with TM. I'm not even suggesting who to replace him with, just saying it's obvious TM isn't it.

If I were to pick a 'perfect' coach and system for this team I'd be look for:

System:
Defensive focus with a strong break-out and transition

Coach:
Defensive |-----0----------| Offensive
Good with prospects
Holds players and staff privately accountable. Takes public responsibility.
Young and innovative


TM's biggest issue for me is he isn't innovative. Also, he's trying to use a system that isn't appropriate for this team. If you want to keep his system, then you need to bring in blue-liners with superior foot speed and stick-handling who shut down the play at the blue-line. A fast offense top to bottom who rely on transition, creativity, and puck recovery.

Right now you've got a slow defense with poor stick-handling who back into the zone and attempt to clog up the shooting lanes (but suck at blocking shots) and are not aggressive on the puck carrier. You've got an offense who tries to play a grinding, cycling, offensive game that relies upon timing and individual skill. It's just a mess.

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03-22-2010, 02:52 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
That's just wrong.

I really don't understand how you guys are making excuses for these clowns at this point. Todd McLellan is a terrible coach at this point in his career. He is not ready to coach a top-tier NHL team.

If you handed me an all-star team and asked me to coach them to the Stanely Cup, I doubt that team, no matter how full of super-stars, would even make the playoffs because I would be a terrible coach. Coach's matter, big time. We've got other problems too, but TM is the biggest one.
I actually agree with what you are saying. I should have been more clear I guess. The thread was about what should be done right now to end this collapse. After the season I would be on board with firing TM, maybe DW depending on what happens, but not with 3 weeks left in the season. This team has been able to win with his system and this coach, they can continue to do it if the players step up.

Poor asset management and the wrong coach are valid concerns; would I like to go back and make changes to the roster knowing what we know now? Of course. But would you fire Todd and DW right now to end the skid? I would not, I think right now all you can do before the playoffs is hope these guys step up. That was my response to the poll questions, I am not making excuses for anyone.

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03-22-2010, 02:59 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Please define leadership. On the Sharks, the leadership certainly isn't with the coach and the management is certainly not backing up McLellan enough for him to have it. Shared leadership is the way to go along with shared accountability. Too many within the org have have been given free passes which is a terrible example. I don't think anyone here has any idea how much leadership McLellan has because he has never been given a chance to exercise it. You are still personalizing the issue. Move away from individual blame and you can work towards a solution. Fix the plan before you fix the people be they coaches or players.

But, if you have read some of what I wrote earlier, I am not penning all on T.M., as well this very weak defense we have. That is definately not personalizing it as spreading it out quite a bit. Our D is not really that good at all, other than in the top 3. But, talking of personalizing, maybe that should be questioned to others whom continue to pen much of it on big Joe (not just Sharks fans, i'm talking in general in and outside the fan base). It always comes down to him not being able to carry this team when, we have two glaring weaknesses in which we have discussed in depth here alone.

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03-22-2010, 03:01 PM
  #93
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I honestly am not sure what you are getting at hear Easy. Your being pretty vague and I am not sure exactly what you would like to see.
He is trying to get you to look beyond what is happening on the ice and into the backrooms. Management and people within the org. Players arent much different than your pet dog. They can be trained and they do take advantage of their environment. Why do players who come to San Jose tend to lose all their bite, all their fire? Its not the palm trees and sunshine. There is a culture issue behind those walls.


On TM

His system is broken with the players they have on the ice. He needs to change it but either cant or wont. Him an DW were not on the same page in the off season and it shows.

On Yawney

Hes a moron

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03-22-2010, 03:12 PM
  #94
SJeasy
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I honestly am not sure what you are getting at hear Easy. Your being pretty vague and I am not sure exactly what you would like to see.

RW and TM are polar opposites.

Ron Wilson:
Deffensively focused
Bad with prospects
Hold's players accountable, publically
Faith in himself
Veteran coach

Todd McLellan:
Offensively focused (what's defense?)
Good with prospects
No personal accountability, period (from what we are told)
Faith in the system
Rookie coach

They literally went as far the opposite direction as they possibly could with TM. I'm not even suggesting who to replace him with, just saying it's obvious TM isn't it.

If I were to pick a 'perfect' coach and system for this team I'd be look for:

System:
Defensive focus with a strong break-out and transition

Coach:
Defensive |-----0----------| Offensive
Good with prospects
Holds players and staff privately accountable. Takes public responsibility.
Young and innovative


TM's biggest issue for me is he isn't innovative. Also, he's trying to use a system that isn't appropriate for this team. If you want to keep his system, then you need to bring in blue-liners with superior foot speed and stick-handling who shut down the play at the blue-line. A fast offense top to bottom who rely on transition, creativity, and puck recovery.

Right now you've got a slow defense with poor stick-handling who back into the zone and attempt to clog up the shooting lanes (but suck at blocking shots) and are not aggressive on the puck carrier. You've got an offense who tries to play a grinding, cycling, offensive game that relies upon timing and individual skill. It's just a mess.
Just FYI, DeBoer is a fairly close to your description of a coach.

They need to take down the pedestals and they needed to do that long before JT arrived. Erecting one and finding someone to put on it is not the way to go. As fans, we should demand that. As long as we buy tickets because of JT or Nolan or . . . or . . ., we are supporting the wrong culture. We should be buying tickets because of the TEAM. That culture filters to the team. Pass the message to management.

Real accountability. If the Sharks can't draft and develop the players they need to hold those accountable for the failure. Every trade represents a failure. Get DW and others to acknowledge that. Too many trades and a team is in a rinse and repeat cycle. Players are not born with the skills; they develop them over time and they can adapt. Find people who know how to guide them in training and adapting.

Hiring is not a thing of hiring friends be they players or management. Position is earned by results. Do not look to hire someone who has failed elsewhere unless he seriously understands and takes responsibility for his failures (Yawney, JFJ).

They start by taking down pedestals. Whether it is JT or Nabby or Marleau or Boyle, playing time is earned and the org will seek to develop players to challenge them and seriously give those players opportunities to do so. As long as there are pedestals still standing, they will not have addressed this problem. Replacing the person on the pedestal will not work. This is the area where I do find fault with TM. Lesser guys are accountable, core players are not. But I am not sure that TM has the backing of the org in addressing the issue. IMO, he may be getting backing now.

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03-22-2010, 03:15 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I honestly am not sure what you are getting at hear Easy. Your being pretty vague and I am not sure exactly what you would like to see.

RW and TM are polar opposites.

Ron Wilson:
Deffensively focused
Bad with prospects
Hold's players accountable, publically
Faith in himself
Veteran coach

Todd McLellan:
Offensively focused (what's defense?)
Good with prospects
No personal accountability, period (from what we are told)
Faith in the system
Rookie coach

They literally went as far the opposite direction as they possibly could with TM. I'm not even suggesting who to replace him with, just saying it's obvious TM isn't it.

If I were to pick a 'perfect' coach and system for this team I'd be look for:

System:
Defensive focus with a strong break-out and transition

Coach:
Defensive |-----0----------| Offensive
Good with prospects
Holds players and staff privately accountable. Takes public responsibility.
Young and innovative


TM's biggest issue for me is he isn't innovative. Also, he's trying to use a system that isn't appropriate for this team. If you want to keep his system, then you need to bring in blue-liners with superior foot speed and stick-handling who shut down the play at the blue-line. A fast offense top to bottom who rely on transition, creativity, and puck recovery.

Right now you've got a slow defense with poor stick-handling who back into the zone and attempt to clog up the shooting lanes (but suck at blocking shots) and are not aggressive on the puck carrier. You've got an offense who tries to play a grinding, cycling, offensive game that relies upon timing and individual skill. It's just a mess
.
You're whole write up is excellent, and especially the points on T.M. and the D, so right on the money. The bottom half of our D has got to be one of the worst entering the playoffs no matter which other teams enter; it is slow and provides pretty much no offensive support at all on a very very good offensive team. That is a huge weekness and teams are exploiting it. Wait until the tempo picks up big time come the playoffs. And correct, we have a coach unable to work around it and actually killed the build up of Demers and is no less followed by an awful assistant coaching team as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by one2gamble View Post
On TM

His system is broken with the players they have on the ice. He needs to change it but either cant or wont. Him an DW were not on the same page in the off season and it shows.

On Yawney

Hes a moron
Ditto as well.

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03-22-2010, 03:19 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
They start by taking down pedestals. Whether it is JT or Nabby or Marleau or Boyle, playing time is earned and the org will seek to develop players to challenge them and seriously give those players opportunities to do so. As long as there are pedestals still standing, they will not have addressed this problem. Replacing the person on the pedestal will not work. This is the area where I do find fault with TM. Lesser guys are accountable, core players are not. But I am not sure that TM has the backing of the org in addressing the issue. IMO, he may be getting backing now.
But, T.M. has not once this season benched the likes of Huskins or even Wallin since he's been here (and hasn't looked good at all) or even Leach or Seto or Clowe or Pavs or Ort or Staubitz or Mitchell etc. Only the young guys. So, the lesser likes outside of Joe and Patty and Heater haven't been touched!!!

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03-22-2010, 03:24 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
But, T.M. has not once this season benched the likes of Huskins or even Wallin since he's been here (and hasn't looked good at all) or even Leach or Seto or Clowe or Pavs or Ort or Staubitz or Mitchell etc. Only the young guys. So, the lesser likes outside of Joe and Patty and Heater haven't been touched!!!
Huskins and Wallin are on Yawney.

The Detroit system works where the young guys have to serve huge apprenticeships before advancing. Unfortunately, the guys above them aren't that much better. In a sense it is McLellan not recognizing the difference between SJ and Det. Part of that issue is DW not hanging onto guys and getting a bit trade happy because he didn't get enough good culture into the guys he had. Detroit started with culture first and does everything to keep guys around who embody the culture, even on the lower lines.

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03-22-2010, 03:26 PM
  #98
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Where the fire Tmac and scratch star players choice? I've been saying scratch Patty and Thornton for years now.

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03-22-2010, 03:28 PM
  #99
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Huskins and Wallin are on Yawney.

The Detroit system works where the young guys have to serve huge apprenticeships before advancing. Unfortunately, the guys above them aren't that much better. In a sense it is McLellan not recognizing the difference between SJ and Det. Part of that issue is DW not hanging onto guys and getting a bit trade happy because he didn't get enough good culture into the guys he had. Detroit started with culture first and does everything to keep guys around who embody the culture, even on the lower lines.
Ok, I agree with you completely, this is exactly what I was getting at. TM is trying to implement Detroit's system without Detroit's players. It's dumb,and regardless of any other issues, TM is clearly not a quality coach.

Basically, I think getting rid of TM is an independent decision of whatever else is done. It's like when you walk into the house and there's some putrid smell, you don't know what it is, but the first thing you do is take out the trash and then work from there.

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03-22-2010, 03:34 PM
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SJeasy
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Ok, I agree with you completely, this is exactly what I was getting at. TM is trying to implement Detroit's system without Detroit's players. It's dumb,and regardless of any other issues, TM is clearly not a quality coach.

Basically, I think getting rid of TM is an independent decision of whatever else is done. It's like when you walk into the house and there's some putrid smell, you don't know what it is, but the first thing you do is take out the trash and then work from there.
To me the smell starts with the pedestals. The org and TM can take them down without a single change in personnel. I named the two personnel who were friend hires that were not based on results. That would be my starting point and shot across the bow.

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