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The Tkachuk trade??

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05-02-2004, 05:12 PM
  #1
Spaceace
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The Tkachuk trade??

Was Keith Tkachuk worth Michael Handzus,Ladislav Nagy,Jeff Taffe,and a 1st round pick back in March of 2001?? I watch Handzus & Nagy kicking ass with their present teams,& Tkachuk didn't really help St. Louis at all in the playoffs.
And he gets suspened at least once a year in the past 2 years he's played in St. Louis. And now,he can't be traded b/c of his gargantuan contract.

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05-02-2004, 05:17 PM
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Hindsight is 20/20. At the time it was a trade of bottom 6'ers and a 1st for one of the best power forwards in the game. Now Nagy has developed into a first liner, Handzus has developed into a nice checking centre and Taffe is still developing.
Was it worth it? Now you can pretty much say no, especially with Tkachuk's ridiculous contract, but again, at the time it seemed pretty good.

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05-02-2004, 05:25 PM
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gotta give a little to get a little

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05-02-2004, 05:42 PM
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Agree with what Ehc said, and on top of that who did the 'yotes take with that first rounder?

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05-02-2004, 05:55 PM
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Ben Eager

Two of the four things the yotes got for Tkachuk are in Philadelphia now

To Phoenix - Boucher, Nagy, Comrie
To St. Louis - Tkachuk
To Philadelphia - Esche, Burke, Eager, Handzus

EDIT - minor detail, I had Boucher going to Philly rather than Esche


Last edited by Rails: 05-02-2004 at 09:30 PM.
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05-02-2004, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harper
Ben Eager

Two of the four things the yotes got for Tkachuk are in Philadelphia now

To Phoenix - Boucher, Nagy, Comrie
To St. Louis - Tkachuk
To Philadelphia - Boucher, Burke, Eager, Handzus
Tkachuk probably costs close to or more than the rest of them put together.
Hindsight is 20/20, but at this point you can truthfully say that St. Louis got the raw end of that deal.

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05-02-2004, 09:18 PM
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The deal doesn't seem so bad since Phoenix didn't keep Handzus.

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05-02-2004, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by katodelder
The deal doesn't seem so bad since Phoenix didn't keep Handzus.
Yeah, at this point the team who is best off is Philadelphia, and they weren't even involved. Though, Nagy and Comrie is a good catch.

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05-02-2004, 09:27 PM
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I don't remember, but didn't they get deep into the playoffs after he came over?

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05-02-2004, 09:29 PM
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Was that the year they went to seven with Colorado - the eventual champs - in the Conference Finals?

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05-02-2004, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harper
Was that the year they went to seven with Colorado - the eventual champs - in the Conference Finals?
that was the year where the made it to the WCF against Colorado, but lost in 5 because Turek blew up... hmm seems like blew up is an understatement..

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05-03-2004, 07:30 AM
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I was expecting a fierce defense from Blues fans, since thats whats happened on these boards for the past few years anytime anyone suggests that the Yotes might not have gotten taken on the deal. I've always felt that the Yotes did very well, and that it was one of the better blockbuster deals we've seen in a while. The Blues wanted Tkachuk, and thats what they got. I don't think he's really disappointed there, and he's remained near the top as far as power forwards go. The Blues did fine. The Yotes did rather well also. Nagy is a stud, and nearly makes the deal worth it for the Coyotes alone.

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05-03-2004, 08:01 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
I was expecting a fierce defense from Blues fans, since thats whats happened on these boards for the past few years anytime anyone suggests that the Yotes might not have gotten taken on the deal. I've always felt that the Yotes did very well, and that it was one of the better blockbuster deals we've seen in a while. The Blues wanted Tkachuk, and thats what they got. I don't think he's really disappointed there, and he's remained near the top as far as power forwards go. The Blues did fine. The Yotes did rather well also. Nagy is a stud, and nearly makes the deal worth it for the Coyotes alone.
Yup, I always felt the Coyotes got the better end of that deal. I think they messed it up in the subsequent trade of Handzus for Boucher but the original deal was still a good one anyway.

Looking back are there any St Louis fans who are wishing that they'd have kept those younger players together? Im thinking also of the Weight trade. I dunno, obviously Im not a big Blues follower but I thought they might have been smarter to keep guys like Handzus, Hecht, Nagy, Bartecko, etc. around instead of going the Weight/Tkachuk route.

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05-03-2004, 08:27 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceace
Was Keith Tkachuk worth Michael Handzus,Ladislav Nagy,Jeff Taffe,and a 1st round pick back in March of 2001?? I watch Handzus & Nagy kicking ass with their present teams,& Tkachuk didn't really help St. Louis at all in the playoffs.
And he gets suspened at least once a year in the past 2 years he's played in St. Louis. And now,he can't be traded b/c of his gargantuan contract.
Who did the Yotes pick with the number one choice they got?

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05-03-2004, 08:32 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeddarRants
Who did the Yotes pick with the number one choice they got?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Harper
Ben Eager

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Old
05-03-2004, 08:35 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
Yup, I always felt the Coyotes got the better end of that deal. I think they messed it up in the subsequent trade of Handzus for Boucher but the original deal was still a good one anyway.

Looking back are there any St Louis fans who are wishing that they'd have kept those younger players together? Im thinking also of the Weight trade. I dunno, obviously Im not a big Blues follower but I thought they might have been smarter to keep guys like Handzus, Hecht, Nagy, Bartecko, etc. around instead of going the Weight/Tkachuk route.
Guys, I don't think the Blues got ripped off. They went to the Western conference finals the year they brought in Walt. The next year they lost to Detroit (SCW) in the semis.

The Blues traded part of the future to win now. Walt two years ago was worth Nagy Handzuz... at that point in their carears, everyone would have taken Walt over both of those players.

Nagy has turned out great for Phoenix, but he was not good 2 years ago, he was still developing and not ready to contribute in a big time way (Which is what the Blues needed).

Everyone knows what Walt can do, but there was a lot of ????s. as to Nagy. Personally, I think Nagy was the toss in and Handzuz was the real prize for Phoenix, at that time.

Walt is nearly a point per game player. He brings a physical element that Nagy doesn't, but Handzuz does. I guess my question here is: If Walt wasn't getting 10 million per year, and more like 7, would people put him under the microscope as much?

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05-03-2004, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenzy1
Guys, I don't think the Blues got ripped off. They went to the Western conference finals the year they brought in Walt. The next year they lost to Detroit (SCW) in the semis.

The Blues traded part of the future to win now. Walt two years ago was worth Nagy Handzuz... at that point in their carears, everyone would have taken Walt over both of those players.
Well I never said they got ripped off, but I do think Phoenix got the better end of the deal. And no, at that point in their careers not everyone would have taken Tkachuk over Nagy and Handzus because I wouldnt have. I have always liked this deal for Phoenix from day one. Not a knock against Tkachuk really, I just always have had a high opinion of Handzus and to a lesser extent Nagy. As for the $10 million dollar thing, it probably does increase people's expectations of him but it's not what swings the deal for me. It only emphasizes my opinion that Phoenix got a good deal in this situation regardless of salaries.

Anyway like I said I dont think the Blues got ripped off but it's not a deal I liked from their perspective. Im sure lots of Blues fans were very happy with the deal and that's fine.

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05-03-2004, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenzy1
Guys, I don't think the Blues got ripped off. They went to the Western conference finals the year they brought in Walt. The next year they lost to Detroit (SCW) in the semis.

The Blues traded part of the future to win now. Walt two years ago was worth Nagy Handzuz... at that point in their carears, everyone would have taken Walt over both of those players.

Nagy has turned out great for Phoenix, but he was not good 2 years ago, he was still developing and not ready to contribute in a big time way (Which is what the Blues needed).

Everyone knows what Walt can do, but there was a lot of ????s. as to Nagy. Personally, I think Nagy was the toss in and Handzuz was the real prize for Phoenix, at that time.

Walt is nearly a point per game player. He brings a physical element that Nagy doesn't, but Handzuz does. I guess my question here is: If Walt wasn't getting 10 million per year, and more like 7, would people put him under the microscope as much?
Yeah people would, because Tkachuk disappears once the games start to matter instead of the paycheques.

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05-03-2004, 01:18 PM
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At the time the Blues were right there battling for a cup so they saw a fit and then did what teams have to do when they are after a valuable asset, they way overpayed. In order to get a great player off of any team, it is going to cost you more than he is worth in terms of actual talent. Especially when you consider that at the time of the trade, KT were the aboslute best power forward in the game.

Of course, I still wouldn't have done the deal then or now but that is because I am of the opinion that having two or three very good young players is better than having one brilliant one. The assets the Blues gave up could easily have been turned into a cup contender for the Pho under different circumstances.

I look at the Quebec/Philly deal for Lindros. At the time, it sure looked like the Fliers would be a cup favorite for years to come and, in fact, they were, but, the thing about youth and especially talented youth or the kind of talent that it takes to get a brilliant player (except for the Kings who traded Gretzky for a warm nappy) is that usually in short order, they get significantly better and when you consider that it takes several of them to get a star caliber player away from another team, it certainly gives the team trading away the one player a much better foundation to build a championship caliber team with.

In other words, the KT deal did what it were supposed to do, it was a great deal for both teams at the time. For the Blues, it gave them a powerforward star who helped round out their team and make them legitimate contenders and for the Yotes it gave them gobs of young talent to help them build a contender with. Of course, they may not have done the best job with what they had, that is yet to be seen though in some cases.

This is how these types of deals are supposed to happen. One team gets a shorter term fix and the other gets the long term deal.

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05-03-2004, 10:33 PM
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My perspective when the Blues started to load up for a Cup contention was that they could have probably kept their younger players, used that same money spent on the Weight & Tkachuk contracts to sign free agents of a quality level, and then they would have had further depth as an organization to make a longer lasting Cup run.

I generally believe in keeping your young core together and fill holes via free agency if possible, and making a few strategic trades up where needed. Conversely, you could probably make a good arguement for the Blues trying to sign guys like Guerin and sign a Fedorov or someone else who has been available the past few years. Then they would also have Nagy, Handzus, etc. to use as bargaining chips to use where they needed. To me it just makes them competitive for longer.

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05-04-2004, 03:31 PM
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What skews the deal in PHO's favor is comparing this deal to other deals for 30 YO UFA's to be that the small market team couldn't afford to pay. Compare PHO's return on Tkachuk to EDM return on Weight, or PITT's return on Jagr, and that deal looks REALLY bad for STL. The insane deal that Tkachuk then got just is some extra salt in the wound.

At the time of the trade, Handzus already a 40+ point NHL player and had been nominated for a Selke. Nagy had NHL experience and looked like he had a pretty good chance to turn into a scoring line player. The 1st & Taffe are just extra icing on the cake IMO.

I know what Pleau was trying to do. But what happened was he turned a great team into a group of great players. (Easy to say with the 20/20 hindsight).

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05-04-2004, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
I don't remember, but didn't they get deep into the playoffs after he came over?
Yeah, because he was a LEADER before the deal and an even better one after it. Right....

STL also loses the deal b/c THEY paid (and continued to think Paychuk) was worth "x" amount of money...

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05-04-2004, 05:14 PM
  #23
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I say no. The Blues got Tkachuk to "put them over the top" He was suppose to do to the Blues what Brendan Shanahan did to the Wings. Fill the missing role of power forward and help lead the team to the cup.

The Blues gave up alot to get what they and alot of people thought was the premier PF in the game. IMO it has not worked out. The Blues would be alot better team with Zeus, Nagy, Taffe and whoever they would have taken with that 1st round pick.

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05-04-2004, 11:01 PM
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It was one of the last trades where a "small market" team got good value for an expensive soon to be RFA, back then, the trade was pretty fair, but now looking at later deals, its questionable as is the contract he was given when he got to St Louis

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05-05-2004, 10:03 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by JWI19
I say no. The Blues got Tkachuk to "put them over the top" He was suppose to do to the Blues what Brendan Shanahan did to the Wings. Fill the missing role of power forward and help lead the team to the cup.

The Blues gave up alot to get what they and alot of people thought was the premier PF in the game. IMO it has not worked out. The Blues would be alot better team with Zeus, Nagy, Taffe and whoever they would have taken with that 1st round pick.

I agree iwth your position but not your point mate.

You can't lump the fact that the blues didn't win the cup after the TK deal on his shoulders. Too many variables. You have to look at TKs performance since being acquired by the blues. From my stats he were right solid from the start and remained solid throughout when compared to others of his stature.

Still, as I said, I am one of those who don't think that dealing away so much of your youth to get ONE player is the right move. It didn't work for the Kings when they did so for 99 (Got close though and weren't his fault in 93 but the facts remain the Kings don't have a cup championship) and then when the Blues got him it didn't work for you lot either.

Lindros didn't bring a cup to the Fliers and so on.

Now, adding a single piece or maybe two to a puzzle that is right at the cup works often but, adding one to get you past the second round is a gamble. It works sometimes but typically, at least lately, it doesn't and when those young players reach league age it shows how poorly a choice these types of deals are.

The Kings just did this TWICE as a mistake this past season. We Dealt Sergie Anshankov (solid young Rus LW who is becoming an elite prospect and could be in the league next season) and Jared Aulin for Martin Straka and the hack Carter.

Straka has plenty left in the tank and was fair value as far as the deal goes but, as things were with the Kings, he weren't going to be the player to get us a cup and so the deal shouldn't have been made in my opinion.

The Carter deal is simply a stupid one were we gave up an ultra talented young center, something our org doesn't have much depth at, for a 50/50 at best shot at getting a player who could might maybe turn his game around (never a good sign) and return to being a 90 point producer (which were doubtful).


In the end, these types of deals where a star quality player is dealt to a contender for lots of great youth I feel it has to pay off for the stars new team within a season or two or it will always be seen as a blown deal.

TK is a great and one of maybe two or three of his kind players in the league and he cost the Blues a ton its true but, it isn't his fault the Blues didn't win the cup entirely nor is it his fault that the Blues young talent is turning into studs.

It sits squarely on the Blues orgs shoulders in my opinion and heres why.

Once a decision like this is made you have to be willing to go all the way with it. Look at the Wings, look at the Avs, they didn't go out and get Shanahan and one other top talent and then say this is enough to win the cup, they went out and kept signing trading for and whatever else they could to keep adding to the strength of their rosters. The Blues added a couple more players but shyed away from getting that once and for all top notch goalie to get them the rest of the way and as such, haven't made it. I am not saying that it is all the goalies fault but I am saying that if you are going to go out and get top notch talent up front, you better go out and get it everywhere.

It doesn't work ever year but it has worked enough to get them the cup and it has worked well enough to keep them contenders as well. Of course, it doesn't always work but it does work well enough for them that it makes sense in the manner they did it.

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