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Jaromir Jagr

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05-02-2004, 11:08 PM
  #1
kmad
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Jaromir Jagr

Where will Jagr end up, compared to the all-time greats? I'm certain he's a shoe-in for the hall of fame, and if he keeps up at his current pace, he's en-route for top five in all-time NHL scoring. Will his lack of heart keep him from being remembered among the ranks of Yzerman, Messier, Lafleur? Or will he be remembered as one of the best all time based on his pure skill, and his ability to amass thousands of points in a low-scoring era?

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05-02-2004, 11:21 PM
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Luigi Lemieux
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he was already ranked at #37 all time by the sporting news in 1998 at age 26. based on pure skill and how good he was in his prime, he would be considered to be top 5 all time. his last few years hasn't been too impressive for his standards. he's still a ppg player, but to drop from a 120-130 pt player to a 70-80 pt player when he was only 30 years old will tarnish his career somewhat. he could have been a top 5 all time player, but will end up a top 15. still an amazing career though. 13 straight 30 goal seasons speak for itself.

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05-02-2004, 11:36 PM
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Top 10 ALL TIME , but I wouldn't take him over people like Sakic (who IMO is a top 7 all time yes I rank him with Stevie , Messier ) .

His 5 or 4 scoring titles speak for them selfs , he is pure talent when he wants to be , it seems he doesn't like the game no more .

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05-03-2004, 12:42 AM
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I think he'll be remembered as one of the ultimate enigmas, I'd put Sergei Federov in the same class as him. Skillwise, Jagr's probably top 5 all-time. But his mental approach to the game drops the estimation of him down somewhat. I certainly could not put him in the same class as Messier, Lafleur, or Yzerman. Jagr has never shown the ability to inspire his teammates and carry them on his back.

So, in the end, I'd probably put him in the top 15 players all-time, like DM said previously on this thread. But his lack of desire keeps out of the top 10.

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05-03-2004, 01:13 AM
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Jagr-Fedorov-Kovalev

Imagine that line playing as well as they could.

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05-03-2004, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMP5030
I think he'll be remembered as one of the ultimate enigmas, I'd put Sergei Federov in the same class as him. Skillwise, Jagr's probably top 5 all-time. But his mental approach to the game drops the estimation of him down somewhat. I certainly could not put him in the same class as Messier, Lafleur, or Yzerman. Jagr has never shown the ability to inspire his teammates and carry them on his back.

So, in the end, I'd probably put him in the top 15 players all-time, like DM said previously on this thread. But his lack of desire keeps out of the top 10.
Ditto.

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05-03-2004, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMP5030
Jagr has never shown the ability to inspire his teammates and carry them on his back.
So, so untrue.

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05-03-2004, 10:06 PM
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kmad
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To be fair, Jagr's never been put in a leadership role before.. except on Pittsburgh a couple times, when Lemieux was down with injury, and he did well there. Also, he's captaining the Czech team at the WC, right now.. and he's doing quite a good job

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05-03-2004, 10:18 PM
  #9
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Best European player of all time.

It sucks that a lot of people will judge his career based on these past few seasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMP3050
Jagr has never shown the ability to inspire his teammates and carry them on his back.
No way!

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05-03-2004, 10:26 PM
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Jagr actually did well for the NYR but no one else could...

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05-03-2004, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clefty
Best European player of all time.

It sucks that a lot of people will judge his career based on these past few seasons.



No way!
When you're washed up before you're 30 people tend to do that.

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05-04-2004, 12:14 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful
When you're washed up before you're 30 people tend to do that.
Jagr has got to be the only guy that coud put up near ppg numbers and still have people call him "washed up".

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05-04-2004, 12:33 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
Jagr has got to be the only guy that coud put up near ppg numbers and still have people call him "washed up".
well...you know what I mean.

He's half the player that used to be. That speaks volumes about how good he used to be.

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05-04-2004, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
To be fair, Jagr's never been put in a leadership role before.. except on Pittsburgh a couple times, when Lemieux was down with injury, and he did well there. Also, he's captaining the Czech team at the WC, right now.. and he's doing quite a good job
Damn, how can people forget that quickly? He captained the Penguisn for SEVERAL seasons, was an inspiring force, especially in the playoffs.
One series against New Jersey, he was down with a groin injury (because this guy has had an injured groin for his whole career and played through it) and with the Pens down 3-2 in the series, he came back, tied the game in the last two minutes, and scored the OT winner all on one leg.
In Game 7, Straka was the hero, inspired by his captain. Straka wasn't half the player he is now BTW.

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05-04-2004, 02:55 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Damn, how can people forget that quickly? He captained the Penguisn for SEVERAL seasons, was an inspiring force, especially in the playoffs.

like I said, he was captain when Mario was injured..

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05-04-2004, 03:08 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
So, so untrue.
I was thinking that myself! Untrue indeed

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05-04-2004, 03:12 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Damn, how can people forget that quickly? He captained the Penguisn for SEVERAL seasons, was an inspiring force, especially in the playoffs.
One series against New Jersey, he was down with a groin injury (because this guy has had an injured groin for his whole career and played through it) and with the Pens down 3-2 in the series, he came back, tied the game in the last two minutes, and scored the OT winner all on one leg.
In Game 7, Straka was the hero, inspired by his captain. Straka wasn't half the player he is now BTW.
I was at that game Olive and the atmoshphere when he came out was electric! Best game I have ever been to live.

BTW, it was Titov I believe that scored the game tying goal on an assist by Jags. I still remember Straka ducking under Scotty N and dishing the puck to Jags in OT.

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05-04-2004, 08:03 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
To be fair, Jagr's never been put in a leadership role before.. except on Pittsburgh a couple times, when Lemieux was down with injury, and he did well there. Also, he's captaining the Czech team at the WC, right now.. and he's doing quite a good job

He is not Czech captain at the WC, Straka is. He refused even an A because he wanted focus just on his game. It is strange to watch how some players that did not play well in the NHL this year are so greatly performing at the WC for Czechs. Rusinsky, Jagr, Straka, Spacek just to name few. Jagr is the most dominant and best player at the WC so far, its probably because there is something to play for, I guess.

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05-04-2004, 08:41 AM
  #19
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I agree with others that say that his recent lack of desire will put him out of the top 10 all-time. He has the skill to be among the top 5 all-time, but ufortunately for him, he doesn't seem concerned with playing to his full potential. Still, being considered just outside the top-10 isn't too shabby. It still makes him an elite player over his career.

What's interesting is, I wonder how people would view him if his play declined because of physical limitations (ala Bobby Orr's knees). Would history view him as a better player because of it, and should they?

I don't know why Jagr has been as unmotivated as he has been over the last several seasons, but it has been suggested that he's suffering from clinical depression. If that's the case, that's a medical ailment just as uncontrollable as bad knees, or a susceptibility to concussions.

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05-04-2004, 08:51 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
like I said, he was captain when Mario was injured..
Nope. Mario was retired.

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05-04-2004, 08:52 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
I was at that game Olive and the atmoshphere when he came out was electric! Best game I have ever been to live.

BTW, it was Titov I believe that scored the game tying goal on an assist by Jags. I still remember Straka ducking under Scotty N and dishing the puck to Jags in OT.
True it was an assist, missed that...

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05-04-2004, 08:54 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discostu
I agree with others that say that his recent lack of desire will put him out of the top 10 all-time. He has the skill to be among the top 5 all-time, but ufortunately for him, he doesn't seem concerned with playing to his full potential. Still, being considered just outside the top-10 isn't too shabby. It still makes him an elite player over his career.

What's interesting is, I wonder how people would view him if his play declined because of physical limitations (ala Bobby Orr's knees). Would history view him as a better player because of it, and should they?

I don't know why Jagr has been as unmotivated as he has been over the last several seasons, but it has been suggested that he's suffering from clinical depression. If that's the case, that's a medical ailment just as uncontrollable as bad knees, or a susceptibility to concussions.
He's top 10 IMO. Not outside of it.
I'd pick Gretz, Roy, Mario, Orr, Howe, Messier, Richard and maybe Yzerman as locks in front of him. Hasek and a few others are debatable.

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05-04-2004, 11:29 AM
  #23
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Jagr showed amazing heart in, I think it was the 1999 playoffs when he was playing on one leg. To say he was always as disinterested is just plain wrong. Ever since Jagr left Pittsburgh (and maybe a brief time before the move), Jagr has just lost 'it'. But don't ever claim he never had heart. He might not right now, but at one time he was a a different player out there.

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05-04-2004, 02:10 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
He's top 10 IMO. Not outside of it.
I'd pick Gretz, Roy, Mario, Orr, Howe, Messier, Richard and maybe Yzerman as locks in front of him. Hasek and a few others are debatable.
You guys are crazy. Try to remember beyond the last 15 years. There were some fantastic players before Jagr, and they will be many fantastic players after Jagr. JJ does NOT make the top ten list all time, not even close. Different players different eras, in the big scoring era playing with Lemieux, Jagr has not yet broken the top 20 in scoring. Jagr will NOT be remembered with the likes of Richard, or Gretzky or Orr. In fact, I question if he would even be recalled as the best European player. Versus the likes of Borje Salming? Jari Kurri? Peter Stastny? Igor Larianov? Does Mikita count?

My top 20 players of alltime (inc. goalies):

Gretzky (2857 pts duh)
Gordie Howe 1850
Mark Messier 1844
Ron Francis 1758
Mario Lemieux 1692
Steve Yzerman 1670
Phil Esposito 1590
Raymond Bourque 1579
Stan Mikita 1467
Jari Kurri 1398
Guy Lafleur 1353
Bobby Hull 1170
Maurice Richard 965
Bobby Orr 915
Eddie Shore
Doug Harvey
Patrick Roy 551 wins
Terry Sawchuk 447
Jacques Plante 437
Grant Fuhr 403

Guys who got the points, but not the recognition of "alltime Best"
Marcel Dionne 1771
Paul Coffey 1531
Bryan Trottier 1425
Doug Gilmour 1414
Dale Hawerchuk 1409
Adam Oates 1402

Jagr as of end of this year: 1309

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Old
05-04-2004, 03:15 PM
  #25
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History remembers stats more then anything.

Jagr will go down as one of the all time greats.

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