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Jaromir Jagr

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05-04-2004, 04:15 PM
  #26
Evilo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
You guys are crazy. Try to remember beyond the last 15 years. There were some fantastic players before Jagr, and they will be many fantastic players after Jagr. JJ does NOT make the top ten list all time, not even close. Different players different eras, in the big scoring era playing with Lemieux, Jagr has not yet broken the top 20 in scoring. Jagr will NOT be remembered with the likes of Richard, or Gretzky or Orr. In fact, I question if he would even be recalled as the best European player. Versus the likes of Borje Salming? Jari Kurri? Peter Stastny? Igor Larianov? Does Mikita count?

My top 20 players of alltime (inc. goalies):

Gretzky (2857 pts duh)
Gordie Howe 1850
Mark Messier 1844
Ron Francis 1758
Mario Lemieux 1692
Steve Yzerman 1670
Phil Esposito 1590
Raymond Bourque 1579
Stan Mikita 1467
Jari Kurri 1398
Guy Lafleur 1353
Bobby Hull 1170
Maurice Richard 965
Bobby Orr 915
Eddie Shore
Doug Harvey
Patrick Roy 551 wins
Terry Sawchuk 447
Jacques Plante 437
Grant Fuhr 403

Guys who got the points, but not the recognition of "alltime Best"
Marcel Dionne 1771
Paul Coffey 1531
Bryan Trottier 1425
Doug Gilmour 1414
Dale Hawerchuk 1409
Adam Oates 1402

Jagr as of end of this year: 1309
Outside 15 years? You mean like Orr, Richard and Howe that I actually listed...
You severely underrate what Jagr has achieved
The guy managed to have a point in 50% of his team's goals over the course of a season.
In a defensive era.
With linemates such as Jan Hrdina and Kip Miller.
Being the single star on the team and having to face the top Dmen every night.
He scored more than 120 points. Can you imagine that nowadays?

Some all time greats compared that particular season with Gretzky's record setting season in fact.
He dominated hockey for at least 5 years, and not slightly, but heavily.
Pittsburgh's team at the time was actually WEAKER than today's. But it had Jagr. So Pittsburgh was in the playoffs each year, and usually winning at least a series to boot.

Comparing Oates, Hawerchuk, Gilmour and co to Jagr is laughable IMO.
And yes Jagr is head and shoulders the best european player ever. Only Kurri and Lidstrom can compare, but they're still a notch below.
None was the single most dominant hockey player for several seasons.

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05-04-2004, 04:59 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Outside 15 years? You mean like Orr, Richard and Howe that I actually listed...
You severely underrate what Jagr has achieved
The guy managed to have a point in 50% of his team's goals over the course of a season.
In a defensive era.
With linemates such as Jan Hrdina and Kip Miller.
Being the single star on the team and having to face the top Dmen every night.
He scored more than 120 points. Can you imagine that nowadays?
Uh huh. I lived through the 80's era. 120 pts? Big deal. He scored 50% of his team's goals in a season? Big deal. If he was so valuable to his team, why did he only win the Hart trophy ONCE?

And yes, OUTSIDE the 15 years. You listed three: Howe, Orr, Richard. Those three are obvious. Ever see Esposito? He scored 126 pts in 1968. Before the big offensive explosion of the 80's. And in a smaller league with more depth than the water downed version of today.

Eddie Shore and Doug Harvey were the Defensemen of their era. Harvey won the Norris SEVEN times. Shore won the Hart for MVP of the year four times.

Mind you, I'm not saying that Jagr is swiss cheese. He won the Art Ross what, 5 times? He can score points for sure! But he only won the Hart for MVP of the League ONCE. He was overshadowed by Gretzky and Lemieux for many years. I'm just saying that the top 10 players are players who dominate the league for their era. We've fortunate enough to see several players in the past two decades who fit that description: Gretzky, Lemieux, Roy and Messier. I'd agree that Kurri is not better than Jagr, I would put him on par simply because of his underrated defensive abilities. Orr, Howe, Esposito, Richard, Harvey, Shore, Plante, Hall are names of legend.

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Old
05-04-2004, 05:39 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
You guys are crazy... JJ does NOT make the top ten list all time, not even close. Different players different eras, in the big scoring era playing with Lemieux, Jagr has not yet broken the top 20 in scoring.
Ummm..If you call the '90s a 'big scoring era', then what do you call the '80s?

If anything, Jagr played in the lowest scoring era in the modern game. Jagr should also easily end up in the top ten in all time scoring.

And what does the Hart trophy (which BTW is voted by the same hockey writers that everyone despises) have to do with anything. He should have won 2 of them to go along with his two Lester B's and probably would have won at least three if it weren't for Hasek.

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Old
05-04-2004, 05:47 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
You guys are crazy. Try to remember beyond the last 15 years. There were some fantastic players before Jagr, and they will be many fantastic players after Jagr. JJ does NOT make the top ten list all time, not even close. Different players different eras, in the big scoring era playing with Lemieux, Jagr has not yet broken the top 20 in scoring. Jagr will NOT be remembered with the likes of Richard, or Gretzky or Orr. In fact, I question if he would even be recalled as the best European player. Versus the likes of Borje Salming? Jari Kurri? Peter Stastny? Igor Larianov? Does Mikita count?

My top 20 players of alltime (inc. goalies):

Gretzky (2857 pts duh)
Gordie Howe 1850
Mark Messier 1844
Ron Francis 1758
Mario Lemieux 1692
Steve Yzerman 1670
Phil Esposito 1590
Raymond Bourque 1579
Stan Mikita 1467
Jari Kurri 1398
Guy Lafleur 1353
Bobby Hull 1170
Maurice Richard 965
Bobby Orr 915
Eddie Shore
Doug Harvey
Patrick Roy 551 wins
Terry Sawchuk 447
Jacques Plante 437
Grant Fuhr 403

Guys who got the points, but not the recognition of "alltime Best"
Marcel Dionne 1771
Paul Coffey 1531
Bryan Trottier 1425
Doug Gilmour 1414
Dale Hawerchuk 1409
Adam Oates 1402

Jagr as of end of this year: 1309
those guys have great stats and everything, but Jagr hit 1000 pts when he was 28 years old! If i had to guess who did it faster, i would think only gretzky and mario did. Had he kept up that pace until he was around 34 or 35, he would be a LOCK for that #5 spot after gretzky, mario, orr and howe. he'll still end up around 12 or 13 IMO. Even if he gets 70 pts a year for the next 5 years, that's still around 1700 pts in a defensive era.

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05-04-2004, 05:54 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
Uh huh. I lived through the 80's era. 120 pts? Big deal. He scored 50% of his team's goals in a season? Big deal. If he was so valuable to his team, why did he only win the Hart trophy ONCE?

And yes, OUTSIDE the 15 years. You listed three: Howe, Orr, Richard. Those three are obvious. Ever see Esposito? He scored 126 pts in 1968. Before the big offensive explosion of the 80's. And in a smaller league with more depth than the water downed version of today.

Eddie Shore and Doug Harvey were the Defensemen of their era. Harvey won the Norris SEVEN times. Shore won the Hart for MVP of the year four times.

Mind you, I'm not saying that Jagr is swiss cheese. He won the Art Ross what, 5 times? He can score points for sure! But he only won the Hart for MVP of the League ONCE. He was overshadowed by Gretzky and Lemieux for many years. I'm just saying that the top 10 players are players who dominate the league for their era. We've fortunate enough to see several players in the past two decades who fit that description: Gretzky, Lemieux, Roy and Messier. I'd agree that Kurri is not better than Jagr, I would put him on par simply because of his underrated defensive abilities. Orr, Howe, Esposito, Richard, Harvey, Shore, Plante, Hall are names of legend.
Jagr was the best player in the league for a full 6 seasons. How is that not dominating his era? How many players can make that claim? Messier was never the best player in the league. How many harts does he have?

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Old
05-04-2004, 06:41 PM
  #31
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...

Dude jagr scored 149 points..there's no way any euro will compare with jagr by the time he's done.
Also, Jagr's talents exceed any other player except perhaps mario, gretzky and orr.

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Old
05-04-2004, 07:16 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful
When you're washed up before you're 30 people tend to do that.
Theres no way Jagr is washed up. Just because he hasn't been able to maintain a certain standard over the span of more than a decade (and how many have?) doesn't make him washed up.

The guy fell apart in Washington, no doubt. Probably because he never wanted to be there in the first place.

Yet he managed to put up basically a point per game in both Washington (46 points in 45 games) and New York (29 points in 31 games) with abysmal teams around him. Sure, he used to be far more prolific than that, but that was when scoring was much higher than today and he was playing with a team that was an offensive juggernaut.

Keep in mind also, that Jagr has played through injuries countless times. People question his heart, but save two or three seasons, the guy practically never dogged it. He's lost some speed through chronic groin problems (never missed considerable time as a result of it, mind you) which has taken away a good part of his game, and he can't carry a team the way he used to, but that doesn't make him 'washed up'. He can't be a 140 point scorer forever.

If scoring 74 points on two terrible teams in this league is washed up, I'd take it.

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Old
05-04-2004, 11:52 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
Uh huh. I lived through the 80's era. 120 pts? Big deal. He scored 50% of his team's goals in a season? Big deal. If he was so valuable to his team, why did he only win the Hart trophy ONCE?

And yes, OUTSIDE the 15 years. You listed three: Howe, Orr, Richard. Those three are obvious. Ever see Esposito? He scored 126 pts in 1968. Before the big offensive explosion of the 80's. And in a smaller league with more depth than the water downed version of today.

Eddie Shore and Doug Harvey were the Defensemen of their era. Harvey won the Norris SEVEN times. Shore won the Hart for MVP of the year four times.

Mind you, I'm not saying that Jagr is swiss cheese. He won the Art Ross what, 5 times? He can score points for sure! But he only won the Hart for MVP of the League ONCE. He was overshadowed by Gretzky and Lemieux for many years. I'm just saying that the top 10 players are players who dominate the league for their era. We've fortunate enough to see several players in the past two decades who fit that description: Gretzky, Lemieux, Roy and Messier. I'd agree that Kurri is not better than Jagr, I would put him on par simply because of his underrated defensive abilities. Orr, Howe, Esposito, Richard, Harvey, Shore, Plante, Hall are names of legend.
more than 120 points in the later part of the 90s was achieved by one man guy. Wake up.
Trophies are a mark of the greatest players?
Then name me some guys that won more Hart Trophies, Cups and Leaster B Pearson than Jagr. Not many.
You compare Esposito and his army of Bruins to Jagr and Kip Miller and Jan Hrdina???
LMAO!

Jagr IS a legend. If he was north-american, he'd be a lock for top 10. But the guy is more of a legend in Europe.

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Old
05-05-2004, 12:17 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Jagr IS a legend. If he was north-american, he'd be a lock for top 10. But the guy is more of a legend in Europe.

...

That makes no sense.

Secondly, I would compare the army of pens that came through the 90's easily to the bruins.

Just look at the names from their roster the past decade and a bit. Incredible.

And yes, Jagr is bigger then esposito. In every way.

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Old
05-05-2004, 12:23 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tucker316
...
And yes, Jagr is bigger then esposito. In every way.
Haha, that sounds creepy...

I gotta say, I'm not a Jagr fan but I see him as easily top 15 of all time, quite possibly top ten. Size, skills, Cups. Just needs a bit more grit and desire, but he still has a few chapters to write yet.

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Old
05-05-2004, 12:37 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
You guys are crazy. Try to remember beyond the last 15 years. There were some fantastic players before Jagr, and they will be many fantastic players after Jagr. JJ does NOT make the top ten list all time, not even close. Different players different eras, in the big scoring era playing with Lemieux, Jagr has not yet broken the top 20 in scoring. Jagr will NOT be remembered with the likes of Richard, or Gretzky or Orr. In fact, I question if he would even be recalled as the best European player. Versus the likes of Borje Salming? Jari Kurri? Peter Stastny? Igor Larianov? Does Mikita count?

My top 20 players of alltime (inc. goalies):

Gretzky (2857 pts duh)
Gordie Howe 1850
Mark Messier 1844
Ron Francis 1758
Mario Lemieux 1692
Steve Yzerman 1670
Phil Esposito 1590
Raymond Bourque 1579
Stan Mikita 1467
Jari Kurri 1398
Guy Lafleur 1353
Bobby Hull 1170
Maurice Richard 965
Bobby Orr 915
Eddie Shore
Doug Harvey
Patrick Roy 551 wins
Terry Sawchuk 447
Jacques Plante 437
Grant Fuhr 403

Guys who got the points, but not the recognition of "alltime Best"
Marcel Dionne 1771
Paul Coffey 1531
Bryan Trottier 1425
Doug Gilmour 1414
Dale Hawerchuk 1409
Adam Oates 1402

Jagr as of end of this year: 1309
hahahahahhaa...dude come on. Some of the guys you just mentioned as being better than Jagr are just laughable. I mean Peter Stastny? Igor Larionov? That's just ridiculous. And you had to pull out the old "Jagr played with Lemieux" argument that always comes up whenever somebody tries to downplay Jagr's accomplishments. Listen...The guy won all of his scoring titles without Lemieux!!! He played with Kip Miller and won the scoring title in a landslide. He was an incredible player in his prime. I would rate him a notch lower than Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr, ,but he takes the top spot in the second tier of greats. You list Jari Kurri pretty high on that list...didn't he play with Gretzky? Oh...and he also played in the 80s on the highest scoring team in history. Although Jagr began his career when hockey was still a pretty wide open game, the prime of his career was played in the tight checking late 90s. Your opinions are full of contradictions and distorted views. I encourage you to think long and hard about your views before posting again.

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05-05-2004, 12:58 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tucker316
...
Dude jagr scored 149 points..there's no way any euro will compare with jagr by the time he's done.
Playing with Lemieux.

Theres no doubt Jagr was great in the mid 90's, but one of the greatest of all time??

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Old
05-05-2004, 01:58 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
Playing with Lemieux.

Theres no doubt Jagr was great in the mid 90's, but one of the greatest of all time??

...

Refer to what fonzy, the poster above you, just wrote.

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05-05-2004, 07:19 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Habs Fan
Jagr-Fedorov-Kovalev

Imagine that line playing as well as they could.
Be quite the line UNTIL someone hit them. Then they would fake it or dive.

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Old
05-05-2004, 07:21 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tucker316
...

That makes no sense.

Secondly, I would compare the army of pens that came through the 90's easily to the bruins.

Just look at the names from their roster the past decade and a bit. Incredible.

And yes, Jagr is bigger then esposito. In every way.
He compared Jagr and Esposito's 130 points seasons. I pointed that when Jagr scored that many points, he was on a very weak team.
And yes it does make sense. Larionov and Fetisov are legends here in Europe.
Much less in North America.

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Old
05-05-2004, 07:22 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Be quite the line UNTIL someone hit them. Then they would fake it or dive.
LMAO!
Jagr always had two players on his back and got hit every night.
He isn't a diver nor is he soft.

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05-05-2004, 07:51 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
LMAO!
Jagr always had two players on his back and got hit every night.
He isn't a diver nor is he soft.
I'll never understand why Jagr (and Kovalev for that matter, forget the incident against the Bruins) are always tagged as soft. Is it because they're European that everyone automatically assumes they're soft?

A real standout to Jagr's game is his strength. So many times he'd have two guys draped all over, and he'd easily fight them off with one hand, while using his other hand to stickhandle his way through traffic. He's damn near impossible to knock off the puck, he just kind of leans over and he's practically immovable. He's also actually a really tough SOB, he's played through injury, after injury, after injury for a good decade.

And Kovalev, well he's had a bit of a mean streak for a while. At times, he can really dish out some heavy hits. I remember a game against the Caps, he absolutely pulverised Frantisek Kucera into the boards, which lead to a turnover and a Penguins goal.

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05-05-2004, 08:15 AM
  #43
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Statistically Jagr is still an impact player. Overall he seems to be a negative for a team and that offsets his numbers because he's a distraction. No one forced him to sign a long-term contract in Washington and he was a distraction for the Pens when he wanted out and played that way.

Just curious how did Mike Bossy and his 57 goals average for his career not get into some of these top twenty ten or five? Bossy played on a team where he had to play defense and he put up those numbers, Trottier and Potvin too.

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05-05-2004, 08:53 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clefty
I'll never understand why Jagr (and Kovalev for that matter, forget the incident against the Bruins) are always tagged as soft. Is it because they're European that everyone automatically assumes they're soft?

A real standout to Jagr's game is his strength. So many times he'd have two guys draped all over, and he'd easily fight them off with one hand, while using his other hand to stickhandle his way through traffic. He's damn near impossible to knock off the puck, he just kind of leans over and he's practically immovable. He's also actually a really tough SOB, he's played through injury, after injury, after injury for a good decade.

And Kovalev, well he's had a bit of a mean streak for a while. At times, he can really dish out some heavy hits. I remember a game against the Caps, he absolutely pulverised Frantisek Kucera into the boards, which lead to a turnover and a Penguins goal.
Or when he flattened Zhitnik in the playoffs a few years ago.

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05-05-2004, 08:54 AM
  #45
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I think Cam Neely and Peter Forsberg should be considered as well.

Ron Francis the 4th greatest player all time????????????? I like Ronnie Franchise but cmon the guy was never better than 4th-6th best center in the league at any time in his career.

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