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Part III. Prospective Owners - Phoenix Coyotes (UPD Lease vote 4/13; IEH signs MOU)

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Old
03-29-2010, 09:49 AM
  #76
Hamilton Tigers
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GI?

Isn't it the constitution?

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03-29-2010, 10:01 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
GI?

Isn't it the constitution?

Well, I suppose that's true, but if Goldwater doesn't say anything, they probably get away with it. Either way, as long as the NHL gets their money, and has someone else for the people of Phoenix to blame, they will be happy.

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03-29-2010, 10:05 AM
  #78
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That's logical, but so far as I know, only Seattle has not given in and forked over money at the end of one of these games. Everybody else bends over, applies their own lube, and takes it. The X factor in Phoenix is that the building still has to be paid for somehow.

I'm guessing, for better or worse, that CoG will give in. They won't be able to justify paying the mortgage on a white elephant building that sits empty much of the year, and they will argue that restaurants, hotels, etc will collect money from it's use that will also generate tax dollars. It's an old argument that has been used successfully many times over, and they will argue that it is the lesser of two evils, and the deal will get done.
I can agree with the logic of your point. However, in regards to Seattle, is there a precedent for this situation given the current economic situation in the US right now(honestly I don't know)? (Precedent of asking to subsidise/tax an arena to keep a team in tough economic times)

I thought I read somewhere that the Coyotes are only a small percentage of bookings at the arena(I'm thinking 12 percent?,) but I could be wrong)-41 out of 365 days. If COG wanted to, they could find other bookings to cover those dates. I guess it comes down to whether they think the public will accept being asked to chip in (in whatever form) will not go over well.

I guess it's just a matter of trying to figure out the COG's priorities


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funny when you go through in the heath care bill.....this makes a little bit of sense. Who knows, I'm leaning towards approval only because the COG does does not want a big empty building for an undetermined amount of time. Its just more logical that if they are going to pay for this place no matter what...why not at least have a permanent tenant. They main problem both these proposals is going to face is trying to PROVE to the city that they CAN make this a money making franchise in the future.

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Originally Posted by King_Stannis View Post
If they are losing even more money by leasing to that tenant, then indeed it might make sense to keep the arena dark. Alternatively, they could schedule other events that would make money. It has to be analyzed from a cost-benefit point of view to avoid long term financial catastrophe.

That is theoretical, by the way. I am not saying that is or is not the case with CoG and the Coyotes.
The bolded part is the question-for the COG has to convince the public that this is an investment for the future.

Am I seeing the parallels here (on a much smaller scale of course) of GM going to the govt saying we need money? (And that was with millions of countrywide jobs at stake). I just remember the public outcry about that.


But as has been pointed out by all-it depends on what COG's mindset is: Turn this down and possibly let the Coyotes leave, or accept it with the idea that the team will make the money back in future, with losses in short term.

BTW, this "tax circle"(or whatever): is this pushed as a temporary idea for short term, or a permanent placement?


Last edited by Tinalera: 03-29-2010 at 10:36 AM. Reason: changed wording for context
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Old
03-29-2010, 10:40 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
GI?

Isn't it the constitution?
Yes, but the law as written is too vague. I think this led to some cities and/or developers to skirt the spirit of the law. This is pretty much the GI got involved. I think the City North case brought things to the forefront and I have read some stories that the AZ legislature knows they need to fix the existing law.

I don't have a problem with the GI overall. Having someone keep an eye on things and representing the taxpayer is a good thing. I do think they might be overzealous sometimes. Getting too picky and filing too many suits means that the cities have to spend more and more on legal fees which also costs the taxpayers money.

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03-29-2010, 10:46 AM
  #80
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...filing too many suits means that the cities have to spend more and more on legal fees which also costs the taxpayers money.
Reminds me of my employer. Not sure what the success rate is of GI's suits, but if it's high, then it stands to reason the city is being run by some incompetents and that GI does serve a public service of sorts.

If GI generally loses then I can see them being an unnecessary nuisance.

Anyone down there know the history of GI's activities and successes?

When it boils down, it seems to me that Glendale made a huge blunder in building and financing this arena the way they did. How responsible, if at all, is the NHL?

At the time, were there other options for arena locations and builders in Phoenix?

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03-29-2010, 11:13 AM
  #81
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At the time, were there other options for arena locations and builders in Phoenix?
The original location was supposed to be in Scottsdale. The arena proposal was put before the voters twice and it passed both times. However, the Scottsdale city council decided to ignore the voters and killed the deal.

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03-29-2010, 11:45 AM
  #82
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The original location was supposed to be in Scottsdale. The arena proposal was put before the voters twice and it passed both times. However, the Scottsdale city council decided to ignore the voters and killed the deal.
Why?

Politics, fianancing issues...? Or was it it avoid a CoG/Jobing.com like situation?

Very curious. Do you Phoenix folks think that might have been a better location for the Coyotes?

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03-29-2010, 11:54 AM
  #83
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In hindsight Scottsdale is probably laughing now saying...see what a mess we would have been in.

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03-29-2010, 11:58 AM
  #84
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In hindsight Scottsdale is probably laughing now saying...see what a mess we would have been in.
Perhaps. There's also the possibility that the team would have been a better draw in Scottsdale.

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03-29-2010, 11:59 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
Why?

Politics, fianancing issues...? Or was it it avoid a CoG/Jobing.com like situation?

Very curious. Do you Phoenix folks think that might have been a better location for the Coyotes?
I'm not from Phoenix but I can say this...there are 3 components. You have to have a competitive team, you have to have solid ownership and you have to have a nice arena along with the proper arena deal for a team to flourish.

To simply say the team would have been better off in Scottsdale would be an incomplete statement. Many do believe Scottsdale would have been a better location and I doubt many would debate that. Without the other things combined with that, they would still be struggling.

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03-29-2010, 12:05 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
I thought I read somewhere that the Coyotes are only a small percentage of bookings at the arena(I'm thinking 12 percent?,) but I could be wrong)-41 out of 365 days. If COG wanted to, they could find other bookings to cover those dates. I guess it comes down to whether they think the public will accept being asked to chip in (in whatever form) will not go over well.
It's pretty clear from the arena bookings that they can't find other events to cover those dates. In the last 6 months there have been 41 NHL games and 20 non-hockey days of bookings at the arena. Of those 20 non-hockey events, half of them are smaller local bookings like AIA high school basketball. The arena currently has a total of 7 days worth of non-hockey events booked for the upcoming 3 months, and 3 of those 7 are Sesame Street Live.

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03-29-2010, 12:13 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by mouser View Post
It's pretty clear from the arena bookings that they can't find other events to cover those dates. In the last 6 months there have been 41 NHL games and 20 non-hockey days of bookings at the arena. Of those 20 non-hockey events, half of them are smaller local bookings like AIA high school basketball. The arena currently has a total of 7 days worth of non-hockey events booked for the upcoming 3 months, and 3 of those 7 are Sesame Street Live.
That surprises me.

Other than where the Suns play, are there other arenas thart Jobing.com competes with in Phoneix? That's a large population base there.

Why so few bookings?

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03-29-2010, 12:26 PM
  #88
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http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/s...29/daily2.html

Apparently the NHL has a deal with Thompson to bring the Yotes to Winnipeg IF the problems can't be fixed in Phoenix.

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03-29-2010, 12:27 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
That surprises me.

Other than where the Suns play, are there other arenas thart Jobing.com competes with in Phoneix? That's a large population base there.

Why so few bookings?
There are quite a few concert venues in the Phoenix area. The lion's share of major events are held at the following:

Jobing.com Arena
US Airways Arena
Cricket Pavilion
Mesa Amphitheater
Dodge Theater

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03-29-2010, 12:33 PM
  #90
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So was is it a mistake trying to go for a brand new "hockey only" arena?

Hindsight shows the risk.

Was it impossible to partner with the Suns?

Seems to me the CoG sold themselves out trying to fianance and build Jobing.com. Is that overstating, or is that essentially it? They're stuck with it.

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03-29-2010, 12:34 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Jonas1235 View Post
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/s...29/daily2.html

Apparently the NHL has a deal with Thompson to bring the Yotes to Winnipeg IF the problems can't be fixed in Phoenix.
Oh man. I know some will be skeptical, but I totally believe this. It's kind of sad to think that no matter what happens, one fanbase is going to get screwed here.

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03-29-2010, 12:41 PM
  #92
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And now this today, from the Globe and Mail:

Quote:
Under the current lease, which the NHL negotiated when it bought the team out of bankruptcy, the league can move the team if it has not sold the Coyotes by June 30.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle1515420/

News to me. A little ironic too... While the deal for the Jets to become the Coyotes was announced during the season, the official date for transfer of ownership was July 1, 1996. Does July 1 hold more significance to the NHL than just the start of free agency?

The article also says:

Quote:
While council is not expected to vote on either proposal tomorrow, a decision is expected soon because council is drawing up its 2010-11 budget.

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03-29-2010, 12:44 PM
  #93
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Here's the main part of the article:

Quote:
The National Hockey League is working on a backup plan with Toronto billionaire David Thomson and Winnepeg-based True North Sports and Entertainment that could send the Phoenix Coyotes back to Canada if a deal with Ice Edge Holdings or Jerry Reinsdorf to keep the team in Arizona falls through.

Two sources with knowledge of the Coyotes finances and ownership said a deal between Thomson and the NHL has been completed in principle and could have the Coyotes back in Winnipeg next season if necessary. Thomson, also considered a possible buyer of the Atlanta Thrashers, is a partner in True North and chairman of Thomson Reuters. True North owns the Manitoba Moose of the American Hockey League and MTS Centre in Winnipeg, which seats 15,100.

The sources said, however, the NHL still wants to work out a deal to keep the Coyotes in the Phoenix market. The league bought the Coyotes, still in Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization, for $140 million in October fending off a $242 million bid by Research in Motion CEO Jim Balsillie, who wanted to move the team to Hamilton, Ontario.

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03-29-2010, 01:18 PM
  #94
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Oh man. I know some will be skeptical, but I totally believe this. It's kind of sad to think that no matter what happens, one fanbase is going to get screwed here.
I believe it too. The Phoenix Business Journal has been a pretty good source of news on the Coyotes. There are some Coyote fans already freaking out about this story and I don't get it. Back in the BK, the NHL's deal was that they would look for someone to keep the team in AZ and if they could not, they would relocate. This article is saying the same thing except now it's becoming clear that if the team moves, they're going to Winnipeg. As I said before, if the team isn't staying in AZ, Winnipeg would be my choice.

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03-29-2010, 01:22 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Art.Vandelay View Post
I believe it too. The Phoenix Business Journal has been a pretty good source of news on the Coyotes. There are some Coyote fans already freaking out about this story and I don't get it. Back in the BK, the NHL's deal was that they would look for someone to keep the team in AZ and if they could not, they would relocate. This article is saying the same thing except now it's becoming clear that if the team moves, they're going to Winnipeg. As I said before, if the team isn't staying in AZ, Winnipeg would be my choice.
I know the Phoenix Business Journal is credible, what what's your opinion of the reporter, Mike Sunnucks? He was on Prime Time Sports with Bob McCown a few weeks back and they didn't sound very favorable to Winnipeg back then.

I just hope his "two sources" aren't Don Cherry and Ken Campbell.

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03-29-2010, 01:22 PM
  #96
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MOD NOTE: I know it will be difficult, but I'm hoping that at least in the short term we can keep the discussion in this thread focused on the efforts to keep the team in Phoenix.

There's now a dedicated thread to potential in Winnipeg and Thomson's involvement. http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=756363


I know there will be some natural crossover, but let's try to keep the two cities' issues somewhat separated.
Thanks.

 
Old
03-29-2010, 01:27 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Art.Vandelay View Post
I believe it too. The Phoenix Business Journal has been a pretty good source of news on the Coyotes. There are some Coyote fans already freaking out about this story and I don't get it. Back in the BK, the NHL's deal was that they would look for someone to keep the team in AZ and if they could not, they would relocate. This article is saying the same thing except now it's becoming clear that if the team moves, they're going to Winnipeg. As I said before, if the team isn't staying in AZ, Winnipeg would be my choice.
Exactly, regardless of how far along things are with Winnipeg, it doesn't change the NHL's primary commitment to keeping the team in Phoenix. Coyotes fans still have two potential ownership groups looking to keep the team local with ~3 months to close a deal... now is not the time to panic.

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03-29-2010, 02:36 PM
  #98
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What a pickle the NHL is in right now.

Phoenix right now, is probably peaking in terms of hockey interest. I have no doubts that they could get 15-20 sellouts next season if they put up a good showing in the playoffs and market the team in the summer.

On the other hand, there's no owner and the NHL has had tons of problems with the city of Glendale. They could move the team to Winnipeg where it would probably at least breakeven every year. People in Winnipeg would be pissed if they missed out on the NHL again.

Either way, somebody gets screwed over in this situation.

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03-29-2010, 02:40 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Jonas1235 View Post
What a pickle the NHL is in right now.

Phoenix right now, is probably peaking in terms of hockey interest. I have no doubts that they could get 15-20 sellouts next season if they put up a good showing in the playoffs and market the team in the summer.

On the other hand, there's no owner and the NHL has had tons of problems with the city of Glendale. They could move the team to Winnipeg where it would probably at least breakeven every year. People in Winnipeg would be pissed if they missed out on the NHL again.

Either way, somebody gets screwed over in this situation.


sell outs at an average ticket price of what though? 15 bucks?

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03-29-2010, 02:47 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Jonas1235 View Post
What a pickle the NHL is in right now.

Phoenix right now, is probably peaking in terms of hockey interest. I have no doubts that they could get 15-20 sellouts next season if they put up a good showing in the playoffs and market the team in the summer.

On the other hand, there's no owner and the NHL has had tons of problems with the city of Glendale. They could move the team to Winnipeg where it would probably at least breakeven every year. People in Winnipeg would be pissed if they missed out on the NHL again.

Either way, somebody gets screwed over in this situation.
The yotes finished with 95 points in 2001-2002 (with no 3 point games). How did they do financially the season following? This team has always lost money. They haven't always sucked.

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