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Part III. Prospective Owners - Phoenix Coyotes (UPD Lease vote 4/13; IEH signs MOU)

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Old
03-29-2010, 02:51 PM
  #101
Tinalera
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Hmmm, so no vote tomorrow, but one "soon".

What timeframe do cities usually have draw up budget? As in, enough time to see how the Yotes do attendance wise in the playoffs, getting past first round, that sort of thing?

Also, the comment about 15 dollar tickets makes me think: If the Coyotes have a great playoff attendancewise, maybe go past first round, assuming they stay in Phoenix, how much would the potential owners think they could raise ticket prices to reduce losses but at the same time not tick off the fanbase?

I would think they could put forth the argument that keeping the Coyotes means having to raise tickets for a better product? (I know little to nothing about PR marketing )

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03-29-2010, 03:38 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
I would think they could put forth the argument that keeping the Coyotes means having to raise tickets for a better product?
Srtep 1) Get fans back into the arena. Check
Step 2) Sell the team to an owner who keeps them in Phoenix. Very possible.
Step 3) Keep fans comimg back during regular season. I'd think that this would prove the viability of the market.
Step 4) Determine viable ticket price. They're too low now. Very tricky, but a nice problem to have if you've taken care of steps 1, 2 and 3.

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03-29-2010, 03:52 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
The yotes finished with 95 points in 2001-2002 (with no 3 point games). How did they do financially the season following? This team has always lost money. They haven't always sucked.
That's nice. Business isn't done with the past in mind. It's about the future.

The Red Wings were drawing 5000 people a night in the 80's.

The Canadiens were drawing 15,000 people ten years ago. At the Bell Centre.

These things happen to franchises that are poorly run. The Coyotes aren't poorly run anymore. Things are looking up, even if the Canadian trolls don't think so.

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03-29-2010, 03:59 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas1235 View Post
That's nice. Business isn't done with the past in mind. It's about the future.

The Red Wings were drawing 5000 people a night in the 80's.

The Canadiens were drawing 15,000 people ten years ago. At the Bell Centre.

These things happen to franchises that are poorly run. The Coyotes aren't poorly run anymore. Things are looking up, even if the Canadian trolls don't think so.

unfortunately there is a good possibility that its too little, too late!

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Old
03-29-2010, 04:00 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
The yotes finished with 95 points in 2001-2002 (with no 3 point games). How did they do financially the season following? This team has always lost money. They haven't always sucked.
They were also playing in America West Arena then. They had 4200 seats which were obstructed and basically unsellable. Any by obstructed I mean if you were in those seats or in the Copper Club (high end bar/restaurant) you couldn't see 25% of the ice including the near goal. You literally had to watch half the game on tv's hanging from the ceiling.

They also had a worse lease than what they have now. They got limited revenue from suites, parking and advertising.

http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/Phoe...otes/index.htm

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03-29-2010, 04:03 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas1235 View Post
That's nice. Business isn't done with the past in mind. It's about the future.

The Red Wings were drawing 5000 people a night in the 80's.

The Canadiens were drawing 15,000 people ten years ago. At the Bell Centre.

These things happen to franchises that are poorly run. The Coyotes aren't poorly run anymore. Things are looking up, even if the Canadian trolls don't think so.
Oh so now they were losing money cause of being poorly run not cause of their on ice performance. I'm surprised the yotes have survived 15 years in the desert if they've been poorly run for the whole time if that's what you're contending.

(I'm not Canadian btw)

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03-29-2010, 04:03 PM
  #107
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Did someone already post this?

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/s...29/daily2.html

*Edit: Obviously yes...

Do you think its only a tactic to put some pressure on the potential buyers in Phoenix?

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03-29-2010, 04:04 PM
  #108
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Yeah....made a whole new thread for it.

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03-29-2010, 04:06 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Art.Vandelay View Post
They were also playing in America West Arena then. They had 4200 seats which were obstructed and basically unsellable. Any by obstructed I mean if you were in those seats or in the Copper Club (high end bar/restaurant) you couldn't see 25% of the ice including the near goal. You literally had to watch half the game on tv's hanging from the ceiling.

They also had a worse lease than what they have now. They got limited revenue from suites, parking and advertising.

http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/Phoe...otes/index.htm
the old wpg barn was the same...some seats you had to watch a tv to see the game.

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03-29-2010, 04:34 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Jonas1235 View Post
The Canadiens were drawing 15,000 people ten years ago. At the Bell Centre.
From what I've found in the past 12 years the Habs have averaged under 20,000 once.
In '94/'95 they averaged 17,000, . Bell Centre opened in 1996. Since the Bell Centre opened the Habs have averaged over 20,000 in all years except one.

Unless you have some wicked source for your attendance figures that I don't.

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03-29-2010, 04:47 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
From what I've found in the past 12 years the Habs have averaged under 20,000 once.
In '94/'95 they averaged 17,000, . Bell Centre opened in 1996. Since the Bell Centre opened the Habs have averaged over 20,000 in all years except one.

Unless you have some wicked source for your attendance figures that I don't.
Yup, the lowest they've averaged @ Molson is 18,990 in '01-'02.

To get < 15K, you'd have to go back to the Forum in '66-'67 (although the hockeyresearch.org spreadsheet does have some gaps including '67-'68 thru '76-'77).

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03-29-2010, 05:36 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Jonas1235 View Post
That's nice. Business isn't done with the past in mind. It's about the future.

The Red Wings were drawing 5000 people a night in the 80's.

The Canadiens were drawing 15,000 people ten years ago. At the Bell Centre.

These things happen to franchises that are poorly run. The Coyotes aren't poorly run anymore. Things are looking up, even if the Canadian trolls don't think so.


15,000/ 10 yrs ago isnt the same as 15,000 today.


what was payroll 10 years ago?



run them poor or not, i dont think Montreal ever lost 400 million in 14 years.

I dont think Detroit lost 400 million in 14 years.



We know PHX has, and we know the NHL payed 140 million for a team worth (50 million per one sport finance guy)


So we also know Tampa sold for 100 million.


the NHL will take a loss on PHX(if they do stay)
(will it be 50 /100 million?)
Only way they wil break even will be to move them....


So stay in PHX = 15 yrs lost 500 million.......


take about sinking sands in the dessert huh?

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Old
03-29-2010, 06:08 PM
  #113
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Bill Daly- Primetime Sports this evening

- asked if he wants to talk about about Reinsdorf and Winnipeg states "not really"
- no deal in place, committed to Phoenix
- people involved with COG, prospective owners giving optimistic info
- high level of confidence deal can be reached
- McCown asks if true that through BK - (a) lease is null and void (b) team can move without financial encumberance - Daly replies it is a transitory contract he believes the owner of franchise can reject lease on July 1, 2010 and move team- as far as encumberance COG would have to go after Moyes (hockey entity) for any damages
- Stephen Brunt asks if report is true of agreement in principle- Daly states the report is not true- have had previous discussions with Chipman/Thompson- potential for team- states it would be a logical opportunity for relocation
- asked what are the positives of returning to Winnipeg- Daly states CBA and revenue sharing
- asked about moving a team to what would be smallest market in league- Daly says havn't done the due diligence( no pro formas)
- asked if confident IE can get deal done- Daly says IE commited to transaction, asking tough questions, hope they can piece together deal, has the ability to get deal done with favorable lease, Daly confirms methods and means of financing for IE have changed since initial offering, chicken-egg situation in regards to lease-financing,
- good news stated earlier is coming from various people of parties involved
- from BOG perspective- franchise value paramount- however Phoenix is unique situation- history and past 12 months- can't compare Phoenix to any other franchise
- spoke about Donald Fehr NHLPA

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Old
03-29-2010, 06:24 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Artyukhin View Post
So we also know Tampa sold for 100 million.
Do we?

Some of the latest reports go as low as $85m


Last edited by Hamilton Tigers: 03-29-2010 at 06:43 PM.
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Old
03-29-2010, 06:25 PM
  #115
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Are you saying the attendance will be low in the playoffs?
i agree that if this story was confirmed it would in fact hurt attendance at jobing. and please dont try and defend coyotes attendance. that be like me saying its not cold in winnipeg during the winter...theres nothing to defend. history proves it...not to mention the rediculously low prices of tix at jobing.

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Old
03-29-2010, 07:18 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
Do we?

Some of the latest reports go as low as $85m
And others say the publicized prices don't include assumed debt, which would increase the real acquisition cost. The collection of media articles on the sale price have been less than clear.

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03-29-2010, 07:31 PM
  #117
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And others say the publicized prices don't include assumed debt, which would increase the real acquisition cost. The collection of media articles on the sale price have been less than clear.
I thought about the same thing. I did a few google searches, but couldn't any details. I did see where the Lightning will have no debt servicing after the sale, but there was nothing that said whether Vinik had to pay off any existing debt as part of his purchase.

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03-29-2010, 07:46 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Art.Vandelay View Post
I thought about the same thing. I did a few google searches, but couldn't any details. I did see where the Lightning will have no debt servicing after the sale, but there was nothing that said whether Vinik had to pay off any existing debt as part of his purchase.
Terms of the deal that closed Wednesday were not disclosed. The purchase also includes the lease to the St. Pete Times Forum and ownership of adjacent real estate, the club said in a release.

Five acres, I believe.

So what was the actual cost of the franchise?

http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tamp...1/daily42.html

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03-29-2010, 07:56 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by DDIHH View Post
Did someone already post this?

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/s...29/daily2.html

*Edit: Obviously yes...

Do you think its only a tactic to put some pressure on the potential buyers in Phoenix?


the timing of the release would tell us there is pressure being put on someone....most likely the CoG more than a potential owner and with a meeting on the agenda for tomorrow for the CoG........

smart move that really can't hurt at this point!!

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03-29-2010, 08:36 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
[/B]

the timing of the release would tell us there is pressure being put on someone....most likely the CoG more than a potential owner and with a meeting on the agenda for tomorrow for the CoG........

smart move that really can't hurt at this point!!
It might not be the smartest move if it was leaked by Reinsdorf.

Even if Glendale approves his proposal, the NHL still needs to accept his LOI and the BOG still needs to approve him as an owner.

An underhanded move like that, especially if the NHL does in fact have an agreement with TNSE, could really hurt Reinsdorf's chances of buying the Coyotes.

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03-29-2010, 09:20 PM
  #121
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dispatches flying fast and furious

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2010/...ticular_order/

Quote:
Ice Edge is also looking for extra revenue from the lease, like parking, but they are prepared to commit to Jobing.Com Arena for the duration of the lease. I'm also told that the group now does have full financing from a European Bank, if they get the lease they want.

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03-29-2010, 11:38 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by billy blaze View Post
Deutsche Bank is the "rumored" financier that is prepared to lend, as soon as the "commercially viable lease" is in place. And "commercially viable" is certainly an ambiguous term, but on-the-record that is exactly as far as numerous sources are willing to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Running Riot View Post
It might not be the smartest move if it was leaked by Reinsdorf.

Even if Glendale approves his proposal, the NHL still needs to accept his LOI and the BOG still needs to approve him as an owner.

An underhanded move like that, especially if the NHL does in fact have an agreement with TNSE, could really hurt Reinsdorf's chances of buying the Coyotes.
There is nothing underhanded here. It's all about business. Certainly you realize that Reinsdorf does not have to buy the Coyotes to benefit from this taxing district proposal. If he's interested in the Coyotes, great. Then there are two interested groups. If not, and the legislature agrees this is a better option for "everyone," (including the Cubs, who'd get the stadium help they seek), all the Cactus League teams save the proposed 8% ticket tax that would flow directly to the Cubs, and instead would have the opportunity to keep a portion of whatever revenues the taxing districts would deliver.

It's pretty simple, really, and if you think of it simplistic terms it looks like this: the Cubs deal would mean a $20 ticket to an AZ spring training game would now cost $21.60, with the $1.60 going only to the Cubs; a Valley-wide, year-round tax of 1-2% on everything in and around all sports venues means a ticket price of $20.20-$20.40, with every team having the potential to tap into revenues generated specifically by patrons attending sporting events.

I have to assume that because tourism-specific taxes have not been challenged and defeated in court, they stand up against the gift clause. No reason to believe this will be any different.


Last edited by RR: 03-29-2010 at 11:58 PM.
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03-30-2010, 12:53 AM
  #123
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This was in a city of ~ 650,000 back in 1996. With the 2010 playoffs a couple weeks away, this was the scene in the 5th largest city in America:
Can you please explain to me why the **** you would drive down to the arena (unless you live right there) and camp out when you can buy the tickets online at the same time when they go on sale or call a ticket rep.


Last edited by Fugu: 03-30-2010 at 06:38 AM. Reason: filter
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03-30-2010, 01:09 AM
  #124
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Can you please explain to me why the f you would drive down to the arena (unless you live right there) and camp out when you can buy the tickets online at the same time when they go on sale or call a ticket rep.
That's true... but at the same time, I just did a Ticketmaster search for a pair of "best available" tickets and got 2 seats front row in the Coyotes attack zone near the blue line. A search for 8 tickets together (the household max) netted me second row in the Coyotes defending zone near the blue line. Both are amazing options.

My point was that small population size doesn't translate into small NHL market (just as large populaion doesn't guarantee large NHL market). Your post & my follow up Ticketmaster search do nothing to disprove this -- if people stayed home from Westgate so they could get their tickets online or over the phone through their reps, it isn't showing.

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03-30-2010, 01:23 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Astrosnut5 View Post
i agree that if this story was confirmed it would in fact hurt attendance at jobing. and please dont try and defend coyotes attendance. that be like me saying its not cold in winnipeg during the winter...theres nothing to defend. history proves it...not to mention the rediculously low prices of tix at jobing.
Since you raise the issue of "low prices" in Phoenix, thought this a good time to share some information I've been putting together with the help of some organization insiders (I know they are trustworthy, but if anyone wants to doubt them, fine).

Playoff ticket sales in Phoenix are going very well, two days after going on sale to the public. Projected sales figures are based on all STH taking 100% advantage of their beneficial pricing, and the arena selling out for each game (not looking like an issue).

Ticket Revenues per game:
RNDREVENUEATPREVS BY ROUND
1$1,213,360$67.79$4,853,440
2$1,449,890$81.00$5,799,560
3$1,690,410$94.44$6,761,640
4$2,160,110$120.68$8,640,440
TOTAL REVS MIN/MAX$2,426,720/$26,055,080  

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