i agree totaly, but where do we put mara?? (cerial question, not trying to be smart ass)
In the press box as this team #7D!
The home stretch and the playoffs are a "grinding extravaganza" - Mara, imo, is one of the best #7D in the league; a great insurance policy in case someone goes down.
As a fan I feel good when I see guys like Metropolit, Lapierre, Darche, Mara, Sergei, Pyatt... sitting in the press box. There is no pylon/useless player among them so it shows our depth and it acts as a deterrent factor.
Hopefully (and assuming we sneak in) Metropolit and Mara will be ready for the playoffs.
PS please, for the love of GAWD... no Pyatt on the PP!
Yes, we know, he is 23 years old, 5'11" and 187 pounds.
Anyway, while I love the kid and think he has his place on the team, I agree that time on the PP isn't really his role right now.
On the other hand, I think there's more than a 50-50 chance he has a longer career in the NHL than 5'11 1/2", 175 pound one-trick pony Kjell Dahlin. Tom is not just adequate but already superior as a defensive forward, and this solid base will give him the time to maybe develop a bit better offensive finishing skills. I see him as a Doug Jarvis type of player, but faster. Jarvis had a fairly long career because he could handle decent minutes and not hurt his team, but HELP it.
I don't think the same can be said for a guy like Maxime Lapierre. Give him too many minutes and he would hurt us.
So, ok no PP time, but really it is time you dialed down the constant criticism of this useful player. Go back and watch the three games he played against Washington to see how helpful he can be to our team.
Yes, we know, he is 23 years old, 5'11" and 187 pounds.
Anyway, while I love the kid and think he has his place on the team, I agree that time on the PP isn't really his role right now.
On the other hand, I think there's more than a 50-50 chance he has a longer career in the NHL than 5'11 1/2", 175 pound one-trick pony Kjell Dahlin. Tom is not just adequate but already superior as a defensive forward, and this solid base will give him the time to maybe develop a bit better offensive finishing skills. I see him as a Doug Jarvis type of player, but faster. Jarvis had a fairly long career because he could handle decent minutes and not hurt his team, but HELP it.
I don't think the same can be said for a guy like Maxime Lapierre. Give him too many minutes and he would hurt us.
So, ok no PP time, but really it is time you dialed down the constant criticism of this useful player. Go back and watch the three games he played against Washington to see how helpful he can be to our team.
You forgot 1G, 3A in 35 games played!
Regarding "... but really it is time you dialed down the constant criticism of this useful player..."; I won’t... really.
Pyatt is a speedy buzzing bee, a relentless forechecker, and a very useful cheap (cap friendly) support player but, especially on the verge of the playoffs and in the current context, he does not address our lack of size/grits upfront. Hence, I wish for bigger bottom liners who are not afraid to dish out hits like Lapierre, Moen and White.
Why? Because I am not sure that Martin’s team is well equipped for even strength playoffs hockey.
That being mentioned... (1) "we" eh? And (2) please don’t start following me around like you are doing with that Lafleurs Guy fellow!
I didn't forget. I clearly agreed with you that he should not be playing the PP. It's not his role.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin
Regarding "... but really it is time you dialed down the constant criticism of this useful player..."; I won’t... really.
Pyatt is a speedy buzzing bee, a relentless forechecker, and a very useful cheap (cap friendly) support player but, especially on the verge of the playoffs and in the current context, he does not address our lack of size/grits upfront. Hence, I wish for bigger bottom liners who are not afraid to dish out hits like Lapierre, Moen and White.
Why? Because I am not sure that Martin’s team is well equipped for even strength playoffs hockey.
Moen clearly belongs in the lineup, we both agree on that.
As for the other two, Lapierre does not hit in any useful way, really. He loses most of his battles along the boards in our zone, and is LESS effective at getting the puck out of danger than the smaller Pyatt. And Pyatt is a better PKer because he is more agile. Lapierre is fast but in a straight-line way, not very turn on a dime-ish. Lapierre is a -15 and growing, while Pyatt was -9 in his first stint but has improved during his second stint here, recording +3 so far.
Ryan White, OTOH is slower than both Lapierre and Pyatt, by quite a bit in fact. He will hit and he will drop the gloves but he was making about two or three horrible plays in his own zone per game. His positional play needs work. Playing him any significant minutes is too big a risk to take, IMO, and I think both Boucher and Martin agree, as of today. Next year, White should get another chance to show his stuff.
Did you have a chance to re-view the three games Pyatt played against Washington to see for yourself how he is very helpful to the team?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin
That being mentioned....please don’t start following me around like you are doing with that Lafleurs Guy fellow!
Not to worry! That fellow wants to give away or trade almost every important player on the team I enjoy watching and when I politely disagreed with him he several times resorted to the accusation that I don't care enough about the Habs being competitive. In fact, he has perpetrated that sleight of hand on several others too. I'm not ashamed of refuting his arguments.
On the other hand, you are criticizing only one player, a support one at that, and you have never insulted me. Nothing for me to get worked up over. To each his own I say. In fact, I have only posted one reply to you lately, prior to this one. That's hardly excessive!
I'm curious though, is there any reason you very repeatedly cite for us the age, height and weight of this one player?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin
PS Doug Jarvis... really?!
Yeah, really. Jarvis was really nothing special offensively, and not even as fast for his time as Pyatt is now. But Scotty Bowman recognized the value of a defensive specialist with excellent focus and positioning who could break up the opponents' plays and kill penalties. In that sense, I see Pyatt as a similar type of player. The Habs have two strong scoring lines, in the top 5-6 in the league, actually, so I think they benefit greatly from a defensive specialist who can help the team win games or stay competitive against clubs like Washington.
Only time will tell of course if Pyatt will have a long career.
I assume you were a fan of Kjell Dahlin. I remember the first half of his rookie season alongside Smith and Naslund. He did well. What did you like about his game?
I didn't forget. I clearly agreed with you that he should not be playing the PP. It's not his role.
Moen clearly belongs in the lineup, we both agree on that.
As for the other two, Lapierre does not hit in any useful way, really. He loses most of his battles along the boards in our zone, and is LESS effective at getting the puck out of danger than the smaller Pyatt. And Pyatt is a better PKer because he is more agile. Lapierre is fast but in a straight-line way, not very turn on a dime-ish. Lapierre is a -15 and growing, while Pyatt was -9 in his first stint but has improved during his second stint here, recording +3 so far.
Ryan White, OTOH is slower than both Lapierre and Pyatt, by quite a bit in fact. He will hit and he will drop the gloves but he was making about two or three horrible plays in his own zone per game. His positional play needs work. Playing him any significant minutes is too big a risk to take, IMO, and I think both Boucher and Martin agree, as of today. Next year, White should get another chance to show his stuff.
Did you have a chance to re-view the three games Pyatt played against Washington to see for yourself how he is very helpful to the team?
Not to worry! That fellow wants to give away or trade almost every important player on the team I enjoy watching and when I politely disagreed with him he several times resorted to the accusation that I don't care enough about the Habs being competitive. In fact, he has perpetrated that sleight of hand on several others too. I'm not ashamed of refuting his arguments.
On the other hand, you are criticizing only one player, a support one at that, and you have never insulted me. Nothing for me to get worked up over. To each his own I say. In fact, I have only posted one reply to you lately, prior to this one. That's hardly excessive!
I'm curious though, is there any reason you very repeatedly cite for us the age, height and weight of this one player?
Yeah, really. Jarvis was really nothing special offensively, and not even as fast for his time as Pyatt is now. But Scotty Bowman recognized the value of a defensive specialist with excellent focus and positioning who could break up the opponents' plays and kill penalties. In that sense, I see Pyatt as a similar type of player. The Habs have two strong scoring lines, in the top 5-6 in the league, actually, so I think they benefit greatly from a defensive specialist who can help the team win games or stay competitive against clubs like Washington.
Only time will tell of course if Pyatt will have a long career.
I assume you were a fan of Kjell Dahlin. I remember the first half of his rookie season alongside Smith and Naslund. He did well. What did you like about his game?
First thing first BaseballCoach we may disagree on plenty (not all though! I think that your idea of double shifting a forward on 4th while re-inserting Bergeron was a good idea) of topics but, most of the times, I like to read your posts.
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SHORT VERSION
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From a Habs’ perspective (can the player address one of our needs), I "see" something in Gabriel Dumont, Danny Kristo, Brock Trotter, Ryan White, Max Pacioretty, Andrew Conboy, David Desharnais, Maxim Lapierre, Ben Maxwell, Sergei Kostitsyn, Ryan O'Byrne, Josh Gorges... but I don’t see it – not to the extent of what seems to be the consensus on hfboard – with Pyatt. I can list you his qualities (and I did; use the search engine – I don’t think he is useless, far from it) but, right now, I see him as a lukewarm player.
Imho (and I am not a humble guy! ), regarding Pyatt, some fans are entering into overhyped territory. I already read comparisons with Plekanec...
Though I promise: I will keep my eyes open and hope Pyatt surprises me!
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LONG VERSION
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A. "... I'm curious though, is there any reason you very repeatedly cite for us the age, height and weight of this one player? ..."
It allows me to be more concise; a trait that fits well to a discussion boards like this one imo.
For instance, instead of continuously mentioning that IMO Pyatt does not address our lack of size/grits upfront (with guys like Gomez, Gionta, Plekanec and Cammalleri – four players that I like btw – eating up most of the forwards TOI, I think we must try to balance things up by giving a fighting chance to size/grits on our bottom lines), I will mention his size. Regarding Pyatt, I will also mention his age in reply to posters who presents him as a “fresh” prospect: the guy is 23 – not 21 like Pacioretty. I also like to underline the fact that 23 years old Lapierre (08/09) showed us a lot more than 23 years old Pyatt in 2009-10. If someone bashes Price, I will mention “21 years old Price blablabla”...
=> Size is not a panacea but it is an attribute. Potential (when I insert the age of the player) must also be factored in. And trying to be concise (as underlined by my freaking long post, "trying" is the key word here!) is a good rule of thumb especially when debating ideas on a board like this one. Hence phrases like "... 23 years old, 5'11”, 187 pounds speedy buzzing bee Pyatt, a relentless forechecker...".
=> An effort to be concise while trying to factor in Size and Potential.
B. Regarding the stats of Lapierre and Pyatt...
We already are way out of topic here (though a thread about Metropolit is a thread about bottom liners – so the link is there... tenuous but real... imo!) so I won’t comment. Not tonight, not in this thread! I will limit myself to what I already mentioned above: 23 years old Lapierre (08/09) showed us a lot more than 23 years old Pyatt in 09/10.
C. "... I assume you were a fan of Kjell Dahlin. I remember the first half of his rookie season alongside Smith and Naslund. He did well. What did you like about his game? ..."
In 85/86 I was a young boy. To my eyes Kjell Dahlin (later, I became a big fan of Detroit’s "Russian Five") was "something else": soft hands, creativity, a player who was good WITH the freakin’ puck, a name that sounded cool = I was expecting something to happen when he touched the puck... a great remedy to Jacques Lemaire’s hermetic hockey! Lemaire was no longer the coach during Dahlin’s stay with us but his influence was still palpable... especially for a Montréal born guy like me who had/has plenty of Québec city born relatives: uncles, cousins... who all kept teasing me with the Stastny brothers, Michel Goulet... GAWD... I did “hate” those players but, frankly, I was envious!
Too bad Kjell Dahlin left us a few years after his great rookie season: if I remember correctly, he was fed up with the "Slap shot" (the Paul Newman movie) North American hockey philosophy – the guy was a target for all the goons so he decided to go back home.
D. Regarding Jarvis...
I already mentioned that I was a young boy when Kjell Dahlin amazed us during his rookie season so, obviously, most of my "Jarvis experience" comes from the eyes of a young boy, DVDs/videos, Habs players speaking highly of him and older family members’ "reports"!
When I read Jarvis’ name, I see a very defensively reliable player (a poor man and undersized Gainey?) who was able – and here is the disconnection with Pyatt imo – to chip in offensively from time to time AND a guy who was playing with enough confidence to have an impact on the game. By impact I mean a more than neutral (currently, he is only 23 so things can change, Pyatt’s main quality, beside speed, is his capacity to limit his mistakes – you can’t go more neutral/lukewarm than "well... the guy sure limits his mistakes!") contribution. Jarvis’ former teammates always speak highly of him; I just can’t see the same thing happening with Tom Pyatt.
At this pointy I need to remind everyone that I do consider, as I mentioned on numerous occasions, Pyatt as a relentless and speedy forechecker who limits his mistakes; I appreciate how he fights for the loose pucks, his positioning and his precious cap friendly input. However, he is undersized, uncreative and he never hit – and that leads to another disconnect: Pyatt working hard without the puck, using his speed to seriously annoy the puck carrier but, once he gains control of the puck, "nothing happens": he did not crush someone in the boards and/or did not crash the net and/or did not follow with a savvy pass.
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To reconnect with the topic of this thread...
I hope that Martin et al. will give a fighting chance to Lapierre, White, Pacioretty and Conboy (bigger players who are not afraid to dish out hits but, just like Pyatt, have zero chance to play on our top2 lines in 2010-11); right now, it seems that players like Pyatt and Metropolit (this is a Metropolit thread!) are more "easily" able to gain the coach’s confidence.
Metropolit is a solid depth veteran; assuming we sneak in the playoffs, we will need him.
The only good news is that two solid depth players (Lapierre and Darche) were on the press box against NJ and are ready to pick up the slack.
Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 03-28-2010 at 11:22 PM.
Reason: Plenty of minor things!
Regarding Pyatt, I will also mention his age in reply to posters who presents him as a “fresh” prospect: the guy is 23 – not 21 like Pacioretty. I also like to underline the fact that 23 years old Lapierre (08/09) showed us a lot more than 23 years old Pyatt.
To be fair though, you should not mislead us based on one MONTH of birth.
Here are the FACTS.
Lapierre born in 1985 is in his fifth year as a pro. He is TWO years older than Pyatt (minus one month, March instead of February).
Pyatt born in 1987 is in his third year as a pro.
Pacioretty born in 1988 is in his second year as a pro. He is one hockey year behind Pyatt, but is born several months later in the year.
What I find a bit unfair about your comparison is by calling Pyatt 23 and Lapierre 24, you make it sound like last year's Lappy had the same amount of experience as this year's Pyatt, which is FALSE. The truth is Lapierre is 25 tomorrow and Pyatt was 22 one month ago.
Lapierre in his third year was just like Pyatt this year: part-season in Hamilton. Lappy had a good fourth year, then unfortunately regressed in his fifth year. It is not fair to cherry-pick Lappy's fourth year and compare it to Pyatt's third year.
Furthermore, Pyatt's mission is to break up opponents' plays and he does this well. Lapierre's mission last year, playing with a decent offensive player like Latendresse and matching up against other teams' weaker lines, was to provide some secondary scoring, and they did. Both kids have had some success in their roles, and both kids will need to improve to secure permanent NHL positions. Since both of them play for the team I love, I don't really want to put down one player to build up another. We have enough of that with the Halak and Price fanboys. I think both 25 yo Lapierre and 23 yo Pyatt will be on the team to start next year, and then time will tell how things unfold.
To be fair though, you should not mislead us based on one MONTH of birth.
Here are the FACTS.
Lapierre born in 1985 is in his fifth year as a pro. He is TWO years older than Pyatt (minus one month, March instead of February).
Pyatt born in 1987 is in his third year as a pro.
Pacioretty born in 1988 is in his second year as a pro. He is one hockey year behind Pyatt, but is born several months later in the year.
What I find a bit unfair about your comparison is by calling Pyatt 23 and Lapierre 24, you make it sound like last year's Lappy had the same amount of experience as this year's Pyatt, which is FALSE. The truth is Lapierre is 25 tomorrow and Pyatt was 22 one month ago.
Lapierre in his third year was just like Pyatt this year: part-season in Hamilton. Lappy had a good fourth year, then unfortunately regressed in his fifth year. It is not fair to cherry-pick Lappy's fourth year and compare it to Pyatt's third year.
Furthermore, Pyatt's mission is to break up opponents' plays and he does this well. Lapierre's mission last year, playing with a decent offensive player like Latendresse and matching up against other teams' weaker lines, was to provide some secondary scoring, and they did. Both kids have had some success in their roles, and both kids will need to improve to secure permanent NHL positions. Since both of them play for the team I love, I don't really want to put down one player to build up another. We have enough of that with the Halak and Price fanboys. I think both 25 yo Lapierre and 23 yo Pyatt will be on the team to start next year, and then time will tell how things unfold.
"To be fair though, you should not mislead us based on one MONTH of birth..."
I am not trying to mislead you. Pyatt is 23 and, last season, Lapierre was 23. And yes I do think that 23 years old Lapierre (08/09) showed us a lot more than 23 years old Pyatt in 2009-10. Everyone has access to the personal bios of the players; so if someone is looking for their exact – month precise – birth dates, it is there.
Btw and to use one of your expression "... I'm curious though, is there any reason you...” are using "us/we" instead of "me/I"?
"To be fair though, you should not mislead us based on one MONTH of birth..."
I am not trying to mislead you. Pyatt is 23 and, last season, Lapierre was 23. Btw and to use one of your expression "... I'm curious though, is there any reason you...” are using "us/we" instead of "me/I"?
You ARE misleading us ("us" being all the people who read your posts, whatever our opinions are individually, we are a group, too).
Pyatt began this year at 22 years old and turned 23 in February.
Lapierre began last year at 23 years old and turned 24 in March.
This is Pyatt's THIRD pro year. Last year was Lapierre's FOURTH pro year.
If you want, we can take their ages on January 1st, the approximate halfway point in the season. Last year, Lapierre was 23.8 years old. This year, Pyatt was 22.9 years old. There is virtually a 2 year difference in age, so obviously last year for Lapierre is NOT the year to compare Pyatt THIS YEAR to! In Lapierre's THIRD year, the one where he began as a 22 year old and finished as a 23 year old, he played part of the year in Hamilton, just like Pyatt this year.
Anyway, there is no need to distort the truth to justify liking Lapierre. You have stated your reasons for liking him and I can respect that. I like Lapierre for his capabilities too. Actually at this point, I like all of our roster players. I wasn't very fond of D'Agostini, Chipchura or Laraque but they are all thankfully gone. And I don't think White, Trotter, Desharnais and Maxwell are ready to contribute yet but the reduction in injuries has meant they don't need to play. So on any given night, we have two useful players in the stands. Finally, some depth!
I'd like to see him back as well but he needs to realize that he is 35 years old and possibly just had a career ending injury. He may never be the same again, its much harder to recover when you are older.
I'd resign him to a $700k two way contract. I'd also let him know that if we don't use him, we'd give him every opportunity to try get on with another team. I'd also offer him the AHL maximum to be a good influence on Bulldogs players if he can't cut it in the show next year.
Its a pay cut for next year, but he's got to earn his ice time at this point.
what I'm most worried about is that the things Metro is good at involve having a nimble shoulder joint. He is very quick with his stick and is a way better stickhandler than most people give him credit for. His entire game will change if he has pain every time he tries to use his stick the way he usually does. Closest person he reminds me of is Pleky. They use their stick more than anything else. Pleky is fast too and Metro isn't really that slow actually, but they are both very smart and tenacious allowing them to get the puck and make a smart play with it. Shoulder injury is not good at all. ARRRRGH, injury curse go away!
