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Rafalski not happy with "jock tax?"

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Old
03-28-2010, 03:02 PM
  #1
chances14
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Rafalski not happy with "jock tax?"

http://freep.com/article/20100328/BL...ssees-jock-tax

i had no idea they were taxed just for playing in certain states? it's kind of hard for the big money guys to complain though. look at all the money they make anyways.

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03-28-2010, 07:21 PM
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They should certainly exempt minor callups from that tax. Those guys make like 30 grand many times, and their only chance to make a little extra is if they get a week or two in the bigs.

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03-28-2010, 07:56 PM
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It's ironic in Tennessee's case because they didn't have a pro team until the 90s but then made a really concerted effort to lure pro teams to the state and of course then wanted to keep the Preds too when they looked like moving to Ontario.

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03-28-2010, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wings1421 View Post
http://freep.com/article/20100328/BL...ssees-jock-tax

i had no idea they were taxed just for playing in certain states? it's kind of hard for the big money guys to complain though. look at all the money they make anyways.
Cry me a river.
He's a freakin' millionaire because we buy hockey tickets, jerseys, pay for cable, etc.

He ought to shut his stupid mouth.

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03-28-2010, 09:29 PM
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Yeah, we're going to have a whole boatload of special taxes we'll each have to deal with to spend too much energy feeling bad because Nashville has to soak whoever lands in their town to play in a sporting event.

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03-28-2010, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Cry me a river.
He's a freakin' millionaire because we buy hockey tickets, jerseys, pay for cable, etc.

He ought to shut his stupid mouth.
I was under the impression Rafalski was arguing against it for the sake of lesser payed players than himself?

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03-28-2010, 09:45 PM
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sarcastro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Cry me a river.
He's a freakin' millionaire because we buy hockey tickets, jerseys, pay for cable, etc.

He ought to shut his stupid mouth.
I don't have any sympathy for guys like Rafalski having to pay the tax. I do feel for the minor league schmucks that end up having to pay for their cup of coffee in the NHL out of their own pockets.

I think Rafalski's reputation when it comes to, um, positions on tax policy....probably has a lot to do with a lot of folks not caring whether he has to pay more. Trying to point out the hornets without shaking the nest....

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03-28-2010, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DetBigWangs View Post
I was under the impression Rafalski was arguing against it for the sake of lesser payed players than himself?
It was. CB overracts because it's Rafalski. If this were Datsyuk...

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Old
03-28-2010, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
It was. CB overracts because it's Rafalski. If this were Datsyuk...
I assumed it was because he didn't actually read the article.

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Old
03-29-2010, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Cry me a river.
He's a freakin' millionaire because we buy hockey tickets, jerseys, pay for cable, etc.

He ought to shut his stupid mouth.
Yeah, as long as it is millionaires getting screwed over by stupid money-grabbing laws then who cares?

Oh wait, call-ups who don't make that much have to pay this tax too? Well I'll be damned...

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Old
03-29-2010, 12:36 AM
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I want to know the other 17 states that also have a "Jock Tax"

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03-29-2010, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Cry me a river.
He's a freakin' millionaire because we buy hockey tickets, jerseys, pay for cable, etc.

He ought to shut his stupid mouth.
oh the irony.

Before commenting it's always best to R-E-A-D the article posted

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Old
03-29-2010, 01:51 AM
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wait a minute...

So let me get this straight, when the Red Wings play in Tennessee, they have to pay that tax, but since they don't play there often enough, they end up losing money. Correct me if i am wrong here, but that is just plain ridiculous.

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Old
03-29-2010, 02:15 AM
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chances14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Cry me a river.
He's a freakin' millionaire because we buy hockey tickets, jerseys, pay for cable, etc.

He ought to shut his stupid mouth.
hmm why am i not surprised by this comment?

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Old
03-29-2010, 04:26 AM
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Im with Rafalski on this, had never heard it before and it seems obscene.

You want to raise money you tax the residents of your state, you think athletes deserve bizarre bonus taxes, tax the athletes who live in your state, but there's no justification I can see for taxing the red wings when they come to town, considering none of the money is being spent on Michigan.

Especially since Nashville's home games are already helping the Nashville economy in other ways.

This actually makes me feel pretty bad for Meech, his cap hit/day is just $2599, a mere $99 more than the tax, thankfully his true pay/day value would be slightly higher, since he is in a year where his actual salary is higher than the cap hit, he would earn slightly more.

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03-29-2010, 11:30 AM
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Ya, this law really screws over the minor leaguer or the player making the minimum. If a guy making 500k gets recalled to play a back-to-back set for the Preds, he'll earn a whopping $181.35 for those two days. Considering all the time they'd spend playing the game plus morning skates, meetings, etc. that's ~$15/hr. That's certainly not a bad salary. Is the tax exorbitant in this case? Ya, I'd say so. That guy would be paying 96.5% of his income in taxes for those two days (before you factor in any other taxes). While the actual dollars might sound reasonable for someone to make, the tax rate is utterly ridiculous and is borderline criminal. When you factor in the federal income tax, Medicare tax, Social Security tax......this player is actually paying out of pocket on a ~$36,500 salary to play two games in the NHL. Not even multibillionaires have to pay 96.5% taxes on any source of income. Here's a quick breakdown of how much money each player on the Wings made for that Nashville game and what percentage of their income was taken away in taxes.....

PlayerPre-Tax SalaryPost-Tax SalaryTax Rate
Nicklas Lidstrom$38,601.04$36,101.046.48%
Henrik Zetterberg$38,341.97$35,841.976.52%
Pavel Datsyuk$34,715.03$32,215.037.20%
Brian Rafalski$31,088.08$28,588.088.04%
Johan Franzen$28,497.41$25,997.418.77%
Brad Stuart$19,430.05$16,930.0512.87%
Niklas Kronwall$16,839.38$14,339.3814.85%
Daniel Cleary$12,953.37$10,453.3719.30%
Valtteri Filppula$12,953.37$10,453.3719.30%
Tomas Holmstrom$11,658.03$9,158.0321.44%
Kris Draper$8,549.22$6,049.2229.24%
Todd Bertuzzi$7,772.02$5,272.0232.17%
Jason Williams$7,772.02$5,272.0232.17%
Chris Osgood$7,512.95$5,012.9533.28%
Andreas Lilja$6,476.68$3,976.6838.60%
Jonathan Ericsson$4,663.21$2,163.2153.61%
Brett Lebda$4,404.15$1,904.1556.76%
Kirk Maltby$3,886.01$1,386.0164.33%
Jimmy Howard$3,886.01$1,386.0164.33%
Drew Miller$2,720.21$220.2191.90%
Darren Helm$2,590.67$90.6796.50%
Patrick Eaves$2,590.67$90.6796.50%
Derek Meech$2,590.67$90.6796.50%

Now all NHL players qualify for the top federal tax bracket, which is 35% of their income. Currently the combined tax rate for Social Security and Medicare is 7.65%. So factoring in those federal taxes to the player income you wind up with.....

PlayerPre-Tax SalaryTN TaxFed Income TaxSS/Medicare TaxPost-Tax SalaryTax Rate
Nicklas Lidstrom$38,601.04$2,500.00$13,510.36$2,799.98$19,790.7048.73%
Henrik Zetterberg$38,341.97$2,500.00$13,419.69$2,933.16$19,489.1249.17%
Pavel Datsyuk$34,715.03$2,500.00$12,150.26$2,655.70$17,409.0749.85%
Brian Rafalski$31,088.08$2,500.00$10,880.83$2,378.24$15,329.0150.69%
Johan Franzen$28,497.41$2,500.00$9,974.09$2,180.05$13,843.2751.42%
Brad Stuart$19,430.05$2,500.00$6,800.52$1,486.40$8,643.1355.52%
Niklas Kronwall$16,839.38$2,500.00$5,893.78$1,288.21$7,157.3957.50%
Daniel Cleary$12,953.37$2,500.00$4,533.68$990.93$4,928.7661.95%
Valtteri Filppula$12,953.37$2,500.00$4,533.68$990.93$4,928.7661.95%
Tomas Holmstrom$11,658.03$2,500.00$4,080.31$891.84$4,185.8864.09%
Todd Bertuzzi$7,772.02$2,500.00$2,720.21$594.56$1,957.2574.82%
Jason Williams$7,772.02$2,500.00$2,720.21$594.56$1,957.2574.82%
Chris Osgood$7,512.95$2,500.00$2,629.53$574.74$1,808.6875.95%
Andreas Lilja$6,476.68$2,500.00$2,266.84$495.47$1,214.3781.25%
Jonathan Ericsson$4,663.21$2,500.00$1,632.12$356.74$174.3596.26%
Brett Lebda$4,404.15$2,500.00$1,541.45$336.92$25.7899.41%
Kirk Maltby$3,886.01$2,500.00$1,360.10$297.28-$271.37106.98%
Jimmy Howard$3,886.01$2,500.00$1,360.10$297.28-$271.37106.98%
Drew Miller$2,720.21$2,500.00$952.07$208.10-$939.96134.55%
Darren Helm$2,590.67$2,500.00$906.73$198.19-$1,014.25139.15%
Patrick Eaves$2,590.67$2,500.00$906.73$198.19-$1,014.25139.15%
Derek Meech$2,590.67$2,500.00$906.73$198.19-$1,014.25139.15%

I'm no tax expert so I'm not sure what additional taxes might be applied here on a federal level, or if there are additional taxes non-American players have to pay to their own country. I'd imagine any non-American would also have to pay their own countries income taxes in addition to the American income tax for any games played in Nashville (or any other US city). All players who live in the US would would also have state income taxes applied as well. Brett Lebda, for example, you have to pay an additional 3% Illinois state income tax, or $132.12. That would mean he would also be paying out-of-pocket for every game he plays in Nashville.

Seems like any player who plays 3 games or less in Nashville is being given a very unreasonable tax burden. So unreasonable in fact that any player who makes less than about 845k/season will be paying out of pocket just factoring in the Tennessee tax and the US Federal taxes. AHL players on entry level contracts make between the AHL minimum of $36,500 and maximum AHL allowable salary under the CBA of $67,500 per season. That means a player making a $36,500 AHL salary on an NHL minimum entry-level contract who is recalled for a back-to-back home set for the Predators would actually pay $2,2028.50 out of his pocket (before any other taxes were applied). Then you consider that he'd also be losing 2 days of AHL pay so his actual income would be lower than his listed AHL salary. Taking a real life exmaple I randomly grabbed a guy from the Preds system, F Ian McKenzie. His AHL salary is $45,000. Now his two-day recall would earn him a $5,181.35 NHL salary. On that salary he'd have to pay $7,209.84 in Tennessee and US Federal taxes. That means the aforementioned $2,2028.50 difference would come out of his pocket. His AHL salary is $45,000 but he'd lose 2 days of that for the recall, so his actual AHL income for the season would be $44,533.68 (pre-tax). So applying the US Federal taxes of (25% income and 7.65% SS/Medicare) his take-home salary for his AHL time is $29,993.43. Factor in his NHL time, it drops to $27,964.93. I'd be willing to bet that more than a few posters here make more than $44,533.68/year, the equivalent of $21.41/hour for a 40-hour work week. Are you really saying that just because some kid is good enough to play hockey he should be forced to pay more in taxes than the average citizen who has a higher income than him? The doctors, lawyers, etc. aren't paying $2,500.00 for each patient or case, yet a hockey player who isn't getting paid more than them is expected to LOSE income just because he's a hockey player? Sounds pretty stupid to me to penalize someone for what essentially amounts to a career choice. As if Ian McKenzie wasn't already hit hard enough, he plays for Milwaukee so he'd have to also pay Wisconsin state income tax ($2,444.39), Ohio state income tax for the time with the Cincinnati Cyclones ($49.47), the Cincinnati city income tax ($122.41), Canadian Federal income tax ($8,069.19), and Saskatchewan provincal income tax ($5,655.87). You'd also have an types or property taxes or city/state taxes for places he played away games in. That means his pre-tax income for his NHL and AHL time would be $49,715.03 but his actual take-home pay would be $11,623.61, an overall income tax rate of 76.62% - all because of having to pay $5,000 to Tennessee for their ridiculous tax. By contrast, if he never played a single NHL game his overall pre-tax salary would be $45,000, which is $4,715.03 less than before. However, his take-home pay would increase dramatically to $16,080.04, a whopping $4,456.43 more! That means his two-day NHL cup of coffee was actually costing him $2,228.22/day in actual take-home income!

Do you still think Rafalski should shut up instead of speaking out for the players at the bottom of the food chain who are getting harshly penalized for their career choice CB?

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Old
03-29-2010, 11:35 AM
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FF-- did you deduct 18% for escrow retention?

The contracted salary is all nice and good, but Eaves is only making $410K in real pay that shows up (or just lop off 18% off the numbers above and THEN do your tax exercise).

Eaves pays more for the three games in TN in TN taxes than he actually gets on his paycheck for the three days. Adding insult to injury, he cannot deduct this amount off his other taxes, so the Feds and MI and other states where he pays taxes see him actually keeping that additional $7500-- so he pays taxes on that amount too.

Also, for purposes of the taxes collected by other states, you'd use the 193 days in a league year to get the daily rate, not an annualized rate as you'd do a "normal" person's taxes.


Edit: link to Rand Simon explaining player pay and taxes-
http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...an-cometh.html

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03-29-2010, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
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FF-- did you deduct 18% for escrow retention?

The contracted salary is all nice and good, but Eaves is only making $410K in real pay that shows up (or just lop off 18% off the numbers above and THEN do your tax exercise).

Eaves pays more for the three games in TN in TN taxes than he actually gets on his paycheck for the three days. Adding insult to injury, he cannot deduct this amount off his other taxes, so the Feds and MI and other states where he pays taxes see him actually keeping that additional $7500-- so he pays taxes on that amount too.

Also, for purposes of the taxes collected by other states, you'd use the 193 days in a league year to get the daily rate, not an annualized rate as you'd do a "normal" person's taxes.

Edit: link to Rand Simon explaining player pay and taxes-
http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...an-cometh.html
Completely forgot to incorporate escrow. That just makes this even worse.

I've read the Rand Simon article before. It's where I started to base lots of these numbers. I'm going to revise this case study a bit and re-post it in the Business forum to highlight how insane this tax is.

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03-29-2010, 12:03 PM
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And CB is nowhere to be found...

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03-29-2010, 03:30 PM
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It was. CB overracts because it's Rafalski. If this were Datsyuk...
... and if it were Kopecky ...

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03-29-2010, 03:49 PM
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Does this affect players on the roster for games played in Tennessee, or just players who appear in the games? Do backup goalies count if they don't register any ice time? What's the rate of 24 hour flu infection among NHL-minimum players the day before a game at Nashville?

These are all questions I am very curious about.

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03-29-2010, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Does this affect players on the roster for games played in Tennessee, or just players who appear in the games? Do backup goalies count if they don't register any ice time? What's the rate of 24 hour flu infection among NHL-minimum players the day before a game at Nashville?

These are all questions I am very curious about.
I think anyone who makes the trip for the game has to pay. According to this article it also applies to coaches, trainers, support staff, etc.

Link: Could you be hit by the 'jock tax'?
Quote:
For instance, the report noted, not only do millionaire players get caught up in the tax -- but also every traveling member of the team's support staff, from coaches to trainers. And, remember, not every pro athlete is pulling down big money.

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03-29-2010, 07:54 PM
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Wow. $2500 a night??

And for people who may have spouted off without actually reading first.

Quote:
Detroit defenceman Brian Rafalski says Tennessee is unfairly taxing professional athletes to play in the state.

The Red Wings star has been running the numbers, and he estimates 17 teammates will be paying more money in taxes to face off against the Nashville Predators on Saturday night than they will earn for playing the game.

"My complaint with it is ... 17 teammates will be paying money out of their own pocket to play in Tennessee. It's a tax rate of over 100 per cent," Rafalski said Friday.
And frankly, I don't care how much you make, this tax is a joke. A privilege tax for playing there? Tennessee doesn't even have a state tax, but they somehow justify hitting athletes with this tax for the privilege of being entertainers and bringing out thousands of people to Tennessee venues?

Mod: deleted.


Last edited by Fugu: 03-29-2010 at 09:40 PM. Reason: OT
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03-29-2010, 08:38 PM
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Honestly, I'm a little surprised someone hasn't sued over it yet.

Really, if it's legal for Nashville to do this it is just a matter of time for other cities to do it, also... and if 2500 bucks pushes people underwater on their wages for the night, if that starts happening in 4 or 5 cities, especially when that city is in the division and you have to play them a lot...

Mod: deleted.


Last edited by Fugu: 03-29-2010 at 09:39 PM. Reason: OT
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03-29-2010, 11:49 PM
  #25
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Won't someone think of the...... Meeches? Oh, you guys did? Nevermind.

ROUND ROBIN RAFALSKI!

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