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Old
03-29-2010, 08:39 PM
  #76
KuleminFan41
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
agreed. when i read the original post, i was looking for the impressive numbers. couldn't find them.

his poor production makes me wonder if he has the basic skills to play in the nhl. even nhl grinders put up good numbers in junior.
And what about guys that play crap in junior and play well in the NHL? It works both ways brother. Its like comparing Kulemin in Russia to Datsyuk or Kovalchuk or even Ovechkin in Russa...take a look at who put up better numbers while over there....Kulemin did. Ovy had no more than 13 goals over in Russia in one season while Kulemin had 27. Its just the way it is but for the most of the time , a player who "dominates" junior will play great in the NHL

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03-29-2010, 08:55 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Richie79 View Post
With all due respect dredeye there is a big difference here when you criticize someone like Wallin or Mayers (or our opening day starting line up 2009/10) as oppose to a prospect like Paradis. Thanks for adding a little sanity? -- You've more than likely never seen Paradis play one single game in your life..how can you make such a statement? Sounds like you are merley kissing Zeke's behind--and I mean that with all due respect.
With all due respect Richie there is no difference. If he isn't pumped about middle of the road stats he's welcome to express that. I've been posting for a long time and zeke is one of a select few that I agree with on a regular basis. Because I agree with him somehow I'm kissing his ###. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Because I've agreed with someone who posted something a little negative now I'm an ### kisser. Really brutal argument. I haven't seen Paradis play like 99% of the posters in our forum including the op who is already saying we've ripped off the Canes. I can only go by stats because I live in the west coast so I don't get to see many Q games here and going off of stats he's nothing to get overly excited about as of now. Hopefully, he develops into a good nhl'er but I wouldn't expect much more then a 3rd, 4th line grinder at this point. Hopefully, he proves me wrong.

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Old
03-29-2010, 10:00 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by SteveV View Post
The best part about this trade for me, at least we don't have to listen to all the bellyaching about Tlusty the great not getting a chance. Now we see in Carolina EXACTLY what we saw here. AND, he's getting every opportunity with the Canes, still sucks.
Tlusty had actually earned the favor of the coaches in the NHL, but they had to send him to the AHL in order to maintain his eligibility to play in the playoffs down there. They said that his demotion was not merited by his play, but rather because of them wanting him to get all the hockey in he could at the AHL level and be eligible for the postseason down there. Then he got hurt. In reality, he was picked up more for next season than this one anyways. He'll likely start the year in our Top 9 forwards.

Also, Paradis is totally miscast as a power forward. I have no idea where that myth was created, but it doesn't hash out in his play. I have compared his game to Colby Armstrong. Selectively physical, but a pretty tough kid. Decent hands, but a pretty passive offensive game. He has a very, very hard slap shot but lacks touch on it. The times I watched him, he seemed like two players in the same body. Sometimes, he would play a physical style at the expense of his offense and other times he would do the opposite. Carolina saw some huge red flags when they brought him in for prospect camp and decided they were going to cut bait at the first opportunity. He's not nearly as big as some here seem to think, anyways.

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03-29-2010, 10:14 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Richie79 View Post
With all the discussion of our new college signing in Irwin, and our first round pick, 7th over all in Kadri, I just wanted to give an update on our OTHER first round pick who has been putting up impressive numbers in the Q this year.

Philippe Paradis
Position: Center
DOB: Born Jan 2 1991 -- Dolbeau, PQ
Height 6.01 -- Weight 196 -- Shoots L

Year GM G A Pts PIM
2009-10 63 24 20 44 104

Is anyone else as excited about Paradis' upside as I am? I think Paradis has the potential to become our number 2 centre (eventually). Has anyone else been following him?

Remember we gave up Jiri Tlusty who's been very unimpressive for the Canes:
YEAR TEAM LG G G A PTS PIM
2009-10 Carolina Hurricanes NHL 18 1 5 6 6
2009-10 Albany River Rats AHL 16 6 6 12 8


I think this might be the most underrated trade of the year. Furthermore, I believe Burke fleeced Rutherford (or whatever his name is) in Carolina....

Who's with me?!
Actually, according to the QMJHL website, Paradis is 6'2 205.

I don't see him having a huge offensive upside. I see his upside as a Mark Osbourne type of player, only more physical. A very effective third liner who can provide some offense while playing a physical, checking-line role.

Burke described him as a player who skates well and hits anything that moves. If he can play an aggressive, hard-nosed game, finish his checks, be rock-solid defensively and chip in with some offense, he will be a good pick-up. Certainly worth giving up Tlusty.

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03-29-2010, 10:21 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
At the same age Tlusty was putting up over a point per game in the AHL and playing in the NHL as well.

Hard to say it's a "fleecing" to date.
interesting you should say that, because at the same age, Tlusty wasn't even PPG in the OHL

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Old
03-29-2010, 10:33 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by bleeney View Post
Actually, according to the QMJHL website, Paradis is 6'2 205.

I don't see him having a huge offensive upside. I see his upside as a Mark Osbourne type of player, only more physical. A very effective third liner who can provide some offense while playing a physical, checking-line role.

Burke described him as a player who skates well and hits anything that moves. If he can play an aggressive, hard-nosed game, finish his checks, be rock-solid defensively and chip in with some offense, he will be a good pick-up. Certainly worth giving up Tlusty.
I recall reading somewhere Paradis has an NHL level slap shot. He apparantely clocked high in the all star game for the juniors. Combined with his size, tenacity, willingness to hit, he seems to have the tools to be an NHLer at some point.

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Old
03-29-2010, 10:36 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
no, they're quite bad.



1) Wendel Clark was a defenseman in junior

2) You've got your numbers all mixed up. At Paradis' age this year, Clark was already in the NHL.

Here's how Clark and Paradis compare in junior:

17yrs - pre-draft year

W.Clark: 72gms, 23gls, 68pts (82gms, 26gls, 77pts)
P.Paradis: 45gms, 11gls, 23pts (82gms, 20gls, 42pts)

18yrs - draft year

W.Clark: 64gms, 32gls, 87pts (82gms, 41gls, 112pts)
P.Paradis: 66gms, 19gls, 50pts (82gms, 24gls, 62pts)

and Clark was a defenseman for these two years.

19yrs - post-draft year

W.Clark: IN THE NHL: 66gms, 34gls, 45pts (82gms, 42gls, 56pts)
P.Paradis: IN JUNIOR: 63gms, 24gls, 44pts (82gms, 31gls, 57pts)

At the same age, Clark was better in the NHL than Paradis is in the CHL.

It's not close.


Paradis' numbers are horrible. So bad that it makes it doubtful he can ever make the NHL, even as a grinder.

To be fair, Zeke, Clark played in an era where 100 pt seasons were much easier to come by, no?

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03-29-2010, 10:37 PM
  #83
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I didn't bring up the Wendel comparison.

Whatever comparison you want to use, Paradis' numbers are not good.

not good at all.

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03-29-2010, 10:59 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
Tlusty had actually earned the favor of the coaches in the NHL, but they had to send him to the AHL in order to maintain his eligibility to play in the playoffs down there. They said that his demotion was not merited by his play, but rather because of them wanting him to get all the hockey in he could at the AHL level and be eligible for the postseason down there. Then he got hurt. In reality, he was picked up more for next season than this one anyways. He'll likely start the year in our Top 9 forwards.

Also, Paradis is totally miscast as a power forward. I have no idea where that myth was created, but it doesn't hash out in his play. I have compared his game to Colby Armstrong. Selectively physical, but a pretty tough kid. Decent hands, but a pretty passive offensive game. He has a very, very hard slap shot but lacks touch on it. The times I watched him, he seemed like two players in the same body. Sometimes, he would play a physical style at the expense of his offense and other times he would do the opposite. Carolina saw some huge red flags when they brought him in for prospect camp and decided they were going to cut bait at the first opportunity. He's not nearly as big as some here seem to think, anyways.
Ya, Tlusty was really ripping it up with the Canes. He stunk, they sent him down to get more playing time. Honestly, if people want to listen to spin from the team whatever. All I know, a supposed top six type forward on pace to score a pathetic 5 goals was doing jack squat. Just like he did in Toronto. And, if you look at his AHL stats this year, both organizations, he's actually regressed this year.

At least with Paradis, you never know. It was painfully obvious to me, that despite this "he's young" comfort blanket, the kid lacks the heart and desire to breakout in the NHL. I bet he ends up in Europe in two years.

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Old
03-29-2010, 11:09 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
I didn't bring up the Wendel comparison.

Whatever comparison you want to use, Paradis' numbers are not good.

not good at all.
It's not as if Tlusty tore it up in junior hockey at the same age either. He'll be placed in a bigger role next season and the stats will look better. Many players have their breakout years at 19 in junior.

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03-29-2010, 11:26 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
It's not as if Tlusty tore it up in junior hockey at the same age either. He'll be placed in a bigger role next season and the stats will look better. Many players have their breakout years at 19 in junior.
In all fairness to Tlusty he also was playing in a different country in a different style of hockey at a very young age

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Old
03-30-2010, 12:29 AM
  #87
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Well it sure shows you what Burke thought of Tlusty, who hasn't done much to prove him wrong with 1 goal in 18 games as a Cane(and I think that goal came in his first game for them IIRC).

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Old
03-30-2010, 02:44 AM
  #88
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Ryan O'Reilly never even reached the 20 goal plateau as a junior with Erie yet now the kid's playing in the NHL as an 18 year old. Quite honestly Paradis' numbers in the Q mean jack squat right now. Its not true that you need to rip up junior hockey to be a good NHL player.

I agree that we ripped off the Canes because we traded a complete turd for somebody who at least has some potential to be a useful player one day. Tlusty= Ladislav Kohn version 2.0 and we are better for having traded him for anything. Tlusty did play 37 games in junior with Sault Ste Marie and was on pace to score about 24 goals if he had played a full schedule.


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03-30-2010, 04:04 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
Tlusty had actually earned the favor of the coaches in the NHL, but they had to send him to the AHL in order to maintain his eligibility to play in the playoffs down there. They said that his demotion was not merited by his play, but rather because of them wanting him to get all the hockey in he could at the AHL level and be eligible for the postseason down there. Then he got hurt. In reality, he was picked up more for next season than this one anyways. He'll likely start the year in our Top 9 forwards.

Also, Paradis is totally miscast as a power forward. I have no idea where that myth was created, but it doesn't hash out in his play. I have compared his game to Colby Armstrong. Selectively physical, but a pretty tough kid. Decent hands, but a pretty passive offensive game. He has a very, very hard slap shot but lacks touch on it. The times I watched him, he seemed like two players in the same body. Sometimes, he would play a physical style at the expense of his offense and other times he would do the opposite. Carolina saw some huge red flags when they brought him in for prospect camp and decided they were going to cut bait at the first opportunity. He's not nearly as big as some here seem to think, anyways.
Seems to be the general consensus on him from those who watch him play...bit of a role enigma at this point.

A testimony to how ridiculous Carolina's scouting was, really. There's a reason no one projected him in the 1st round. I can't believe Carolina saw so much in Tlusty that they gave up a prized first round pick, and therefore I can't believe they were sober when they made the Paradis pick.

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03-30-2010, 05:20 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie79 View Post
24 goals (44 points) & 104 pim in 63 games doesn't impressive you for an 18/19 year old kid in junior (Q)?

Let's look at Wendel Clark's stat at 18/19 years of age in junior (WHL):
23 goals (45 points) & 225 pim in 72 games

are you kidding me? What does he have to have the same stats as Sidney Crosby or Wayne Gretzky?

His stats are almost identical to Wendel Clark's stats (except for the fact that Wendy had 100 more pims)...and Clark turned out to be more then a third liner....
yeah, clark was a defenceman in junior. yeah.

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03-30-2010, 06:57 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by KuleminFan41 View Post
And what about guys that play crap in junior and play well in the NHL? It works both ways brother.
no, it really doesn't work both ways. show us some guys who played "crap" in junior and played well in the nhl.

there might be a scattered exception to the rule, but its very fair and accurate to say that even those players who go on to become grinders, checkers, and defensive defencemen in the nhl, put up big points in junior and are very, very good junior players.

i'm not sure why anyone would need to argue this point. if you're not a very good junior player, you're highly unlikely to play in the nhl. why does that need to be argued? we don't have to defend and argue in favour of each and every prospect. they aren't all going to make it.

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03-30-2010, 07:02 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
It's not as if Tlusty tore it up in junior hockey at the same age either. He'll be placed in a bigger role next season and the stats will look better. Many players have their breakout years at 19 in junior.
i don't know what i'd call it a "breakout" year when a 19 year old suddenly scores more than he has before at the junior level.

its just a matter of him playing against kids who are 2 and 3 years younger than him. its not a "breakout" year as if its the start of something big. its just one season in which they are playing against many smaller, inexperienced kids.

no doubt paradis will score more next year as a 19 year old.

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03-30-2010, 07:14 AM
  #93
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paradis' stats are very discouraging.. most forwards drafted from the Q are tearing it up once they have been drafted.

paradis stats are along the lines of logan macmillan and bryce swan who were drafted in similar spots and who also play similar games.. one is stinking up the ECHL and the other is in canadian college hockey

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03-30-2010, 07:22 AM
  #94
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I didn't catch Paradis this year, but I did see him last year including live a couple of times. I really wouldn't read too much in to the statistics in terms of making a definitive conclusion on his potential. It's disappointing his production didn't go up, but I would wait and see what he does next year.

I will reiterate though what I said when the Leafs acquired Paradis. He has some tools. Good size, heavy shot, some nice hands and a good stride, even if he isn't the fastest player. My biggest concern before the draft was his hockey sense offensively, but this isn't a player devoid of any skill.

I think Carolina used a first on him because they saw him as a potential third liner who was a bit of a project offensively. It's not like Paradis was completely out of the blue, he was most likely projected to go early to mid second round, and there was a reason for that. If he doesn't break out offensively next year then there's reason to worry, but I wouldn't overreact just yet based on statistics.

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03-30-2010, 08:37 AM
  #95
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Some people don't have the basic knowledge that players are drafted because they are deemed to be NHL prospects and not because they have great stats in juniors. Sometimes it's both but not always.

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03-30-2010, 08:47 AM
  #96
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He should sign a cheap contract if he gets an offer.

Unless he really tears it up next year it isn't like he wants to go back in the draft with his stats.

Trouble with juniors, especially if they might be late bloomers, you have to sign them within 2 years.

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03-30-2010, 09:58 AM
  #97
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i don't know what i'd call it a "breakout" year when a 19 year old suddenly scores more than he has before at the junior level.

its just a matter of him playing against kids who are 2 and 3 years younger than him. its not a "breakout" year as if its the start of something big. its just one season in which they are playing against many smaller, inexperienced kids.

no doubt paradis will score more next year as a 19 year old.
I think people are overlooking the intangibles he brings with his game and just looking at his offensive stats. Fact is, Leafs don't have many players in their system with his package of physical ability and hands. If Tlusty doesn't develop his scoring ability to the NHL level, he'll never be an effective NHLer. If Paradis doesn't develop his scoring ability, he still can be an effective 3rd liner. He was 8th in the Q in hits, averaging 2.63/game. Only 3 of those ahead of him had more points than him (Paquette, Bourque, Brannon). He's younger than all three, bigger than all three, and arguably better skater than two (for sure better than Paquette who is pretty slow, maybe Brannon). He'll be more effective for the Leafs than Tlusty ever would have been imo. Fits Burke's ideal 3rd liner role perfectly.

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03-30-2010, 10:20 AM
  #98
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wow , A 19 year old big body kid who is a 1st rounder is getting tossed to the curb, and some are excited by 23 year old Braydon Irwin. Seems a little backwards to me.

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03-30-2010, 10:40 AM
  #99
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wow , A 19 year old big body kid who is a 1st rounder is getting tossed to the curb, and some are excited by 23 year old Braydon Irwin. Seems a little backwards to me.
well put!

pointless to project upside of either player, but for a big kid still in juniors, it's especially dumb.

let's wait to see if either can make the marlies, then contribute, and then worry about upside.

i think both Hanson and Stalberg could still use some development time in the AHL. Bozak seems to have earned an NHL job but he will get better over time as well.

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03-30-2010, 10:44 AM
  #100
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wow , A 19 year old big body kid who is a 1st rounder is getting tossed to the curb, and some are excited by 23 year old Braydon Irwin. Seems a little backwards to me.
It's because Irwin is billed as a top six talent who can step in in the next few days, whereas Paradis is a project not scheduled to make it for years, if ever.

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