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I want the Rangers to MISS the playoffs(All for/against discussion here)

View Poll Results: Do you want the Rangers to MAKE or MISS the playoffs?
MAKE the playoffs 86 50.29%
MISS the playoffs 85 49.71%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-30-2010, 12:59 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
Well just quick on the first part, you said sacrifice for the greater good which sounds like communism (not that there's anything wrong with that). The point was you don't have to sacrifice like you seem to think.

I'm willing to wait a few years to be an elite team, I think we can achieve moderate success in that time and possibly even get lucky and get hot at the right time and win even if we aren't an elite team.

Plenty of teams have been bad for a long time.
What exactly leads you to believe that we will be elite in a few years? It can't be Sather, because his track record should lead you to any conclusion but that.

Our prospect pool? What if they don't turn out as well as we all hope? Will you again be posting that we should have patience while waiting for the next batch of can't miss prospects?

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Old
03-30-2010, 01:31 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
Because you're rooting for the long term success of the franchise..
Not exactly. You're just operating under a different set of wishful thinking. Finishing at the bottom of the standings doesn't guarantee anything. Draft picks can bust or get hurt or lose their way or decide they no longer want to play for an organization.

Here's a look at the Top 5 picks from 2000-2005. Few of them because building blocks for successful organizations.

2000
#1 NYI - DiPietro
#2 ATL - Heatley
#3 MIN -Gaborik
#4 CLB - Klesla
#5 NYI - Torres

Dippy is an injury bust and Klesla is no franchise player. The other 3 are no longer with the teams that drafted them and those teams didn't experience great success with them.

2001
#1 ATL - Kovalchuk
#2 OTT - Spezza
#3 TB - Svitov
#4 FLA - Weiss
#5 ANA - Chistov

Only 2 players remain with the teams that drafted them and Florida is no closer to being a Cup contender than it was in 2001. The others weren't part of a blossoming Cup contender before they moved on.

2002
#1 CLB - Nash
#2 ATL - K. Lehtonen
#3 FLA - Bouwmeester
#4 PHI - Pitkanen
#5 PIT - Whitney

Nash is the only player remaining with the team that drafted him and CLB has yet to rise to the level of Cup contender. All 4 of the other players are with other teams and only Whitney's Pens challenged for the Cup (of course, he was traded prior to their winning the Cup). Lehtonen has been a IR mess.

2003
#1 PIT - Fleury
#2 CAR - Staal
#3 FLA - Horton
#4 CLB - Zherdev
#5 BUF - Vanek

Four of the 5 are still with the team that drafted them. Fleury won a Cup with PIT but that might have something more to do with subsequent picks: Crosby or Malkin Staal was a key player for Carolina in winning their Cup. Vanek has helped BUF get to the third round twice and also finished out of the PO's twice.

2004
#1 WAS - Ovechkin
#2 PIT - Malkin
#3 CHI - Barker
#4 CAR - Ladd
#5 PHO -Wheeler

OV and Malkin have been huge for their teams. The other 3 have already been moved (2 traded and Wheeler choosing to go). Carolina traded up to pick Ladd in front of their home crowd.

2005
#1 PITT - Crosby
#2 ANA - Ryan
#3 LA - Johnson
#4 MIN - B. Puoliot
#5 MON - Price

Crosby's a generational talent. Ryan has established himself as a goal scorer in the NHL. Price is a question mark with a lot of talent, although the decision to go with Price might have cost the Canadiens some playoff success with Huet or even Halak. The other two have been traded from the organization that drafted them.

A couple of quick facts about the 30 players that were selected Top 5 from 2000-2005:
- 16 of the 30 have already switched teams whether by trade or because they wanted out (in Heatly's case, both!).
- Only 9 of the 30 have proven to be worthy of the high draft pick and established themselves as key players for the teams that drafted them (I'm not including Weiss or Horton, in that group).

In the end, winding up with a Top 5 pick doesn't guarantee you're getting a future building block for your team and even if you do, there's going to have to be other such players added to the mix if you're franchise is going to move forward.

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Old
03-30-2010, 01:41 PM
  #103
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I completely agree with you. There will be plenty of teams for me to watch in the post-season to keep me entertained (in fact, Rangers or not, it's like Christmas season for me with so many games each night) and I've been a hockey fan long enough to know that making the playoffs when you haven't a fools hope of winning more then three games total is just a financial push from the front office and not a "hockey decision" for the betterment of the team.

If it were me, after losing to Boston and knowing Callahan was hurting, I would have put Lundqvist on the bench, maybe shutdown Gaborik (or limited his ice time, no need for him to strain himself in his first *mostly* injury free season), maybe sat Redden just to make a statement, called up Sangs, given the kids a lot of ice time and told my team to go out and play the hockey the learned to play before money became involved and have fun as a team. It would probably result in improved morale, some experience for the kids, keep Lundy and Gabby fresh for next year, send a message to Wade and leave us lower in the standings, thus with a higher draft pick. Unfortunately, we need every penny, since obviously the Rangers are a financially poor organization, so risking the health and stamina of our marquee players for a few more meaningless games is the executive decision

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Old
03-30-2010, 01:44 PM
  #104
Jaromir Jagr
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I want them to miss it. However, they aren't going to intentionally do that. Save your breath.

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Old
03-30-2010, 02:02 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Chief View Post
Not exactly. You're just operating under a different set of wishful thinking. Finishing at the bottom of the standings doesn't guarantee anything. Draft picks can bust or get hurt or lose their way or decide they no longer want to play for an organization.

Here's a look at the Top 5 picks from 2000-2005. Few of them because building blocks for successful organizations.

2000
#1 NYI - DiPietro
#2 ATL - Heatley
#3 MIN -Gaborik
#4 CLB - Klesla
#5 NYI - Torres

Dippy is an injury bust and Klesla is no franchise player. The other 3 are no longer with the teams that drafted them and those teams didn't experience great success with them.

2001
#1 ATL - Kovalchuk
#2 OTT - Spezza
#3 TB - Svitov
#4 FLA - Weiss
#5 ANA - Chistov

Only 2 players remain with the teams that drafted them and Florida is no closer to being a Cup contender than it was in 2001. The others weren't part of a blossoming Cup contender before they moved on.

2002
#1 CLB - Nash
#2 ATL - K. Lehtonen
#3 FLA - Bouwmeester
#4 PHI - Pitkanen
#5 PIT - Whitney

Nash is the only player remaining with the team that drafted him and CLB has yet to rise to the level of Cup contender. All 4 of the other players are with other teams and only Whitney's Pens challenged for the Cup (of course, he was traded prior to their winning the Cup). Lehtonen has been a IR mess.

2003
#1 PIT - Fleury
#2 CAR - Staal
#3 FLA - Horton
#4 CLB - Zherdev
#5 BUF - Vanek

Four of the 5 are still with the team that drafted them. Fleury won a Cup with PIT but that might have something more to do with subsequent picks: Crosby or Malkin Staal was a key player for Carolina in winning their Cup. Vanek has helped BUF get to the third round twice and also finished out of the PO's twice.

2004
#1 WAS - Ovechkin
#2 PIT - Malkin
#3 CHI - Barker
#4 CAR - Ladd
#5 PHO -Wheeler

OV and Malkin have been huge for their teams. The other 3 have already been moved (2 traded and Wheeler choosing to go). Carolina traded up to pick Ladd in front of their home crowd.

2005
#1 PITT - Crosby
#2 ANA - Ryan
#3 LA - Johnson
#4 MIN - B. Puoliot
#5 MON - Price

Crosby's a generational talent. Ryan has established himself as a goal scorer in the NHL. Price is a question mark with a lot of talent, although the decision to go with Price might have cost the Canadiens some playoff success with Huet or even Halak. The other two have been traded from the organization that drafted them.

A couple of quick facts about the 30 players that were selected Top 5 from 2000-2005:
- 16 of the 30 have already switched teams whether by trade or because they wanted out (in Heatly's case, both!).
- Only 9 of the 30 have proven to be worthy of the high draft pick and established themselves as key players for the teams that drafted them (I'm not including Weiss or Horton, in that group).

In the end, winding up with a Top 5 pick doesn't guarantee you're getting a future building block for your team and even if you do, there's going to have to be other such players added to the mix if you're franchise is going to move forward.
Really...you're saying there are no guarantees? Who would have thunk it? I'll take my chances getting a top 5 pick, and missing the playoffs.

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Old
03-30-2010, 02:03 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief View Post
Not exactly. You're just operating under a different set of wishful thinking. Finishing at the bottom of the standings doesn't guarantee anything. Draft picks can bust or get hurt or lose their way or decide they no longer want to play for an organization.
This is argument is totally subjective. You're conveniently leaving out tons of side information that provides a different context for these players.

Quote:
2000
#1 NYI - DiPietro
#2 ATL - Heatley
#3 MIN -Gaborik
#4 CLB - Klesla
#5 NYI - Torres

Dippy is an injury bust and Klesla is no franchise player. The other 3 are no longer with the teams that drafted them and those teams didn't experience great success with them.
Does the fact that Gaborik played for a notoriously conservative Wild team, or the fact that the death of Dan Snyder led to Heatley becoming a Senator/a bit of a headcase change the fact that both are superstars? Not in my book. Both were terrific picks and are terrific players. Like him or not, DiPietro would have been very good if not for injury. Klesla and Torres were both semi-busts, for sure.


Quote:
2001
#1 ATL - Kovalchuk
#2 OTT - Spezza
#3 TB - Svitov
#4 FLA - Weiss
#5 ANA - Chistov

Only 2 players remain with the teams that drafted them and Florida is no closer to being a Cup contender than it was in 2001. The others weren't part of a blossoming Cup contender before they moved on.
Svitov and Chistov are both complete flops, but Kovalchuk and Spezza are both franchise players. Atlanta's terrible management and ownership situation, not Kovalchuk, are to blame for their ineptitude.

And Weiss is on his way toward being a very good player. The fact that Florida is no closer to being a Cup contender might have a lot more to do with the incompetent management decisions made by Keenan and Martin, like the one where they traded arguably the best goaltender in the world for Todd Bertuzzi.

Quote:
2002
#1 CLB - Nash
#2 ATL - K. Lehtonen
#3 FLA - Bouwmeester
#4 PHI - Pitkanen
#5 PIT - Whitney

Nash is the only player remaining with the team that drafted him and CLB has yet to rise to the level of Cup contender. All 4 of the other players are with other teams and only Whitney's Pens challenged for the Cup (of course, he was traded prior to their winning the Cup). Lehtonen has been a IR mess.
Again, Nash isn't to blame for Columbus' struggles. You're talking about an expansion team that had horrible management, like Atlanta (another fairly recent expansion team) and Florida (another fairly recent expansion team that has, basically had one good season in their 19 year history.) They've also, due to their location for the most part, been screwed over with Russian players.

Lehtonen is the same boat as DiPi. Good goalie if he isn't hurt. Bouwmeester left Florida because of bad management, not because he was a bad player. Pitkanen is a bit of an underachiever, but he's a good defenseman. Whitney is a semi-bust.

Quote:
2003
#1 PIT - Fleury
#2 CAR - Staal
#3 FLA - Horton
#4 CLB - Zherdev
#5 BUF - Vanek

Four of the 5 are still with the team that drafted them. Fleury won a Cup with PIT but that might have something more to do with subsequent picks: Crosby or Malkin Staal was a key player for Carolina in winning their Cup. Vanek has helped BUF get to the third round twice and also finished out of the PO's twice.
We all know Zherdev's story, but the other four are either highly successful, or in Vanek's case, only somewhat (his offer sheet saga makes him less attractive than he really is, he's just overpaid).

Quote:
2004
#1 WAS - Ovechkin
#2 PIT - Malkin
#3 CHI - Barker
#4 CAR - Ladd
#5 PHO -Wheeler

OV and Malkin have been huge for their teams. The other 3 have already been moved (2 traded and Wheeler choosing to go). Carolina traded up to pick Ladd in front of their home crowd.
Barker was traded because his team way overpaid for Brian Campbell. If not for that, he'd still be a Hawk. Ladd and Wheeler were both bad picks to begin with.

Quote:
2005
#1 PITT - Crosby
#2 ANA - Ryan
#3 LA - Johnson
#4 MIN - B. Puoliot
#5 MON - Price

Crosby's a generational talent. Ryan has established himself as a goal scorer in the NHL. Price is a question mark with a lot of talent, although the decision to go with Price might have cost the Canadiens some playoff success with Huet or even Halak. The other two have been traded from the organization that drafted them.
Ryan is going to be one of the best power forwards in the league for years to come. He's very, very good. Johnson is one of the top 5 offensive defensemen in the league, and Pouliot, if he really has figured it out, is a heck of a power forward himself. Price was a bit of a reach by the Habs, so it's not surprising that he is still a quesiton mark.

Quote:
- Only 9 of the 30 have proven to be worthy of the high draft pick and established themselves as key players for the teams that drafted them (I'm not including Weiss or Horton, in that group).
I got about 16 or 17 being proven to be worthy of high draft picks, which is just over 50% odds. That's pretty damn good, actually. They can't control the way their teams are run. They are not GMs.

Quote:
In the end, winding up with a Top 5 pick doesn't guarantee you're getting a future building block for your team and even if you do, there's going to have to be other such players added to the mix if you're franchise is going to move forward.
Of course there has to be other players added. That's why if this team really wanted to win, they'd field a rebuilding team next season, as well.

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Old
03-30-2010, 02:13 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Chief View Post
In the end, winding up with a Top 5 pick doesn't guarantee you're getting a future building block for your team and even if you do, there's going to have to be other such players added to the mix if you're franchise is going to move forward.
If you look deeper into those picks, you see that of the teams that drafted those players, many operate below the salary cap, like NYI, MIN, ATL, CLB and PHO. Both MIN and ATL lost those star players because of money, whether they were unable to afford said player or they were unable to afford a team around said player.

The situation would be very different were the Rangers to draft a Kovalchuk or Gaborik.

It would be more akin to what the Pens, Caps and Blackhawks have done, as they have all spent more money as the teams have improved and have thus far been able to hold onto those drafted players. Pittsburgh and Ottowa were in bankruptcy at once point (or near to it) and now both spend to the cap. So you can't point at the Atlantas of the league and say they have no success despite high draft picks. There are financial issues at play.

On top of that, some teams are just poorly run. And yes, the Rangers are one of them. But we never have to worry about spending to the cap, so we have a leg up on cash-poor teams. If we could get some competent management to go with it, we might actually win some games.

In your analysis, you only went up to 2005. There are a lot of players drafted top 5 since then that I'd LOVE to have on this team:

2006
1: Erik Johnson
2: Jordan Staal
3: Jonathan Toews
4: Nicklas Backstrom
5: Phil Kessel

2007
1: Patrick Kane
2: James VanRiemsdyk
3: Kyle Turris
4: Thomas Hickey
5: Karl Alzner

2008
1: Steven Stamkos
2: Drew Doughty
3: Zach Bogosian
4: Alex Pietrangelo
5: Luke Schenn

2009
1: John Tavares
2: Victor Hedman
3: Matt Duchene
4: Evander Kane
5: Brayden Schenn

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Old
03-30-2010, 02:23 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
The way I see it, no one is more interested in seeing this team win than the people who want to see it lose this season. And if you aren't willing to see your team sacrifice for the greater good, then you aren't all that interested in seeing them win at all.

I've never been as disenchanted with this team as I am today. As insulting to the fanbase as the 95-04 years were, these post-lockout seasons feel like a complete slap in the face.

You know who else builds "for the playoffs?" The teams that don't go anywhere. The teams that are in danger of being ****ing relocated. That's who builds for the playoffs. Them and us, apparently. What this team hasn't done in over a decade is build for a Cup. How about building a good hockey team, a hockey team that has more than 2-3 players worth watching?

This franchise is a complete and utter joke, and the last five years have simply been an insult to me as a fan. These post-lockout seasons have been infuriating. The last time the New York Rangers were a great hockey team was 1994. The last time I can say that I watched a Rangers game and felt like I was being entertained as a result of seeing well-played team hockey was 1994.

And this isn't going to change. This team is going to suck next season, too.

Losing out on the playoffs this season may not result in the regime change we need, but at least it will give us a good shot at getting a good player that we desperately need. I believe the chances that we get a good player are much higher than the chances that we win even a round in the playoffs.

If you try and teach your kid to ride a bike, and the pedals are broken, are you going to force him to continue forward with a "never give up" mentality, or are you going to stop, take some time to fix the pedals, and then see what he can do? This team is broken. It needs to be fixed. There is no point pushing forward without the proper tools.
I like this post, and i like it a lot Sting.

This season is a total exception for me, and im getting the feeling that it is for so many other fans as well. Every year i've waited by the TV with baited breath to watch each game. I would be so pissed my mood would change if they lost a game. If they lost to a division rival? I would have to sleep it off or even take a day to recover to the point were it actually hindered part of my relationship with my wife.

If thats not diehard i dont know what is. This year, a little past the halfway mark - for the first time since 1989 I did NOT feel that. I think it was the Islander debacle at home when I snapped. That was it. I couldnt do it anymore, i was incapable of exerting that amount of energy to something that was so utterly frustrating and helpless. Especially when i was seeing no accountability from those who are really to blame in this organization. Then you get to the point of disenchantment. I've been using that word for a few months now, and I see you have too. That sums up this entire year.

Missing the playoffs isnt really just about draft spots and revenue. Its about pushing the reset button. Its about the slim chance that maybe just maybe the result of this will mean the architect of this decade long mess will finally be held accountable, in some way shape or form, so us disenchanted fans who see the reality of the situation can have something to look forward to. Even if its having to sleep off a bad loss to the Devils next spring. I want that feeling again so bad, and im angry, frustrated and actually SAD thats its not there right now. It really upsets me, because i wouldve been shocked if you told me 1,2,4,8 ,10 years ago that this would be the case.


Last edited by HockeyBasedNYC: 03-30-2010 at 02:29 PM.
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Old
03-30-2010, 02:27 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
This is argument is totally subjective. You're conveniently leaving out tons of side information that provides a different context for these players.



Does the fact that Gaborik played for a notoriously conservative Wild team, or the fact that the death of Dan Snyder led to Heatley becoming a Senator/a bit of a headcase change the fact that both are superstars? Not in my book. Both were terrific picks and are terrific players. Like him or not, DiPietro would have been very good if not for injury. Klesla and Torres were both semi-busts, for sure.




Svitov and Chistov are both complete flops, but Kovalchuk and Spezza are both franchise players. Atlanta's terrible management and ownership situation, not Kovalchuk, are to blame for their ineptitude.

And Weiss is on his way toward being a very good player. The fact that Florida is no closer to being a Cup contender might have a lot more to do with the incompetent management decisions made by Keenan and Martin, like the one where they traded arguably the best goaltender in the world for Todd Bertuzzi.



Again, Nash isn't to blame for Columbus' struggles. You're talking about an expansion team that had horrible management, like Atlanta (another fairly recent expansion team) and Florida (another fairly recent expansion team that has, basically had one good season in their 19 year history.) They've also, due to their location for the most part, been screwed over with Russian players.

Lehtonen is the same boat as DiPi. Good goalie if he isn't hurt. Bouwmeester left Florida because of bad management, not because he was a bad player. Pitkanen is a bit of an underachiever, but he's a good defenseman. Whitney is a semi-bust.



We all know Zherdev's story, but the other four are either highly successful, or in Vanek's case, only somewhat (his offer sheet saga makes him less attractive than he really is, he's just overpaid).



Barker was traded because his team way overpaid for Brian Campbell. If not for that, he'd still be a Hawk. Ladd and Wheeler were both bad picks to begin with.



Ryan is going to be one of the best power forwards in the league for years to come. He's very, very good. Johnson is one of the top 5 offensive defensemen in the league, and Pouliot, if he really has figured it out, is a heck of a power forward himself. Price was a bit of a reach by the Habs, so it's not surprising that he is still a quesiton mark.



I got about 16 or 17 being proven to be worthy of high draft picks, which is just over 50% odds. That's pretty damn good, actually. They can't control the way their teams are run. They are not GMs.



Of course there has to be other players added. That's why if this team really wanted to win, they'd field a rebuilding team next season, as well.
Thanks... I started writing this kind of response out myself, got frustrated at the length of it and decided to just forget about it. I agree 100% though.

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03-30-2010, 02:31 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
If you try and teach your kid to ride a bike, and the pedals are broken, are you going to force him to continue forward with a "never give up" mentality, or are you going to stop, take some time to fix the pedals, and then see what he can do? This team is broken. It needs to be fixed. There is no point pushing forward without the proper tools.
Can we just sticky this somewhere?

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03-30-2010, 02:35 PM
  #111
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Ehh, we can say, "Well those guys would be building blocks if not for incompetent management," but isn't that ignoring the fact that we're managed horribly, from the owner on down? Which has been the crux of my argument...well, a big part for sure. Does anyone trust this organization to take advantage of and develop a top pick, while building a successful team around said player? I don't.

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03-30-2010, 02:50 PM
  #112
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Much like Wade Redden and some of the other Rangers, I have taken a passive and lackadaisical approach to the season. I'm not actively rooting against the Rangers, but I don't really care if they make the playoffs. I don't get upset when they lose nor do I get excited when they win. The only thing I'm looking forward to is the day when Sather is no longer GM and who knows when that will be.

Whatever. Baseball season is just around the corner....

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03-30-2010, 02:54 PM
  #113
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Ehh, we can say, "Well those guys would be building blocks if not for incompetent management," but isn't that ignoring the fact that we're managed horribly, from the owner on down? Which has been the crux of my argument...well, a big part for sure. Does anyone trust this organization to take advantage of and develop a top pick, while building a successful team around said player? I don't.
Do I trust this organization to take advantage of and develop a top pick more than I do this organization to go anywhere in the playoffs?

Yes.

The picks we've been making lately have been more or less good. The problem is we aren't in positions where we can draft superstars. If Gordie Clark can make good picks in the mid first round or the second round, which he has lately, then I would have to think chances are good he'll make the right pick at the top, too.

We are definitely not a great developing organization, but our drafting is improving. But the most important part is, what have we got to lose. This team isn't going to win anything. If this team makes the playoffs, it will easily be the worst team in the playoffs, from either conference. There is no chance they would beat Washington or Pittsburgh.

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03-30-2010, 02:54 PM
  #114
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I look at making the playoffs as being an important barometer for a lot of our younger players...

...for the Rangers to make the playoffs, most of the team has to play well and players like Callahan, Dubinsky, Staal, Girardi and Del Zotto are an important part of whether or not the team is playing well (I'd throw in Anisimov and Gilroy, as well). So, if you're hoping the Rangers aren't playing well enough to make the playoffs, then you're really hoping that those players aren't living up to expectations either. I don't really see how you can hope they don't contribute enough down the stretch this season but then expect them (or at least some of them) to be even better next season and in the future.

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03-30-2010, 03:03 PM
  #115
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Ehh, we can say, "Well those guys would be building blocks if not for incompetent management," but isn't that ignoring the fact that we're managed horribly, from the owner on down? Which has been the crux of my argument...well, a big part for sure. Does anyone trust this organization to take advantage of and develop a top pick, while building a successful team around said player? I don't.
http://www.jdandthestraightshot.com/

Slow motion in reverse eh? Did he write that about his sports franchises?

Anyone else feel like puking?


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03-30-2010, 03:10 PM
  #116
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I look at making the playoffs as being an important barometer for a lot of our younger players...

...for the Rangers to make the playoffs, most of the team has to play well and players like Callahan, Dubinsky, Staal, Girardi and Del Zotto are an important part of whether or not the team is playing well (I'd throw in Anisimov and Gilroy, as well). So, if you're hoping the Rangers aren't playing well enough to make the playoffs, then you're really hoping that those players aren't living up to expectations either. I don't really see how you can hope they don't contribute enough down the stretch this season but then expect them (or at least some of them) to be even better next season and in the future.
Those players more or less have been playing well, but, it hasn't been enough to lift this team into a playoff spot. And, part of that remains the inconsistency of youth.

And, are we back to the myth of "the winning culture" again? I think you have a better chance at a "winning culture" when you have a lot of talented players in the organization.

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03-30-2010, 03:11 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Ehh, we can say, "Well those guys would be building blocks if not for incompetent management," but isn't that ignoring the fact that we're managed horribly, from the owner on down? Which has been the crux of my argument...well, a big part for sure. Does anyone trust this organization to take advantage of and develop a top pick, while building a successful team around said player? I don't.
What choice do we have? If our management is that bad (and I'm not saying it isn't), then what hope is there no matter what we do? Should we just accept mediocrity and early playoff exits because it's the best this management team can give us?

It would seem that the only way to effect meaningful change would be to replace the current management with better people. That's more likely to happen if we miss the playoffs. Yeah, things could end up being worse, but at this point I'm willing to roll the dice.


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03-30-2010, 03:25 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Chief View Post
I look at making the playoffs as being an important barometer for a lot of our younger players...

...for the Rangers to make the playoffs, most of the team has to play well and players like Callahan, Dubinsky, Staal, Girardi and Del Zotto are an important part of whether or not the team is playing well (I'd throw in Anisimov and Gilroy, as well). So, if you're hoping the Rangers aren't playing well enough to make the playoffs, then you're really hoping that those players aren't living up to expectations either. I don't really see how you can hope they don't contribute enough down the stretch this season but then expect them (or at least some of them) to be even better next season and in the future.
Missing the playoffs is in no way an indictment of our young players. Not when you have highly paid players like Redden and Drury not coming close to living up to their contracts.

Tampa will likely miss the playoffs. Does that mean Stamkos isn't living up to his expectations? How about Bobby Ryan, Victor Hedman, John Tavares or Evander Kane?

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03-30-2010, 03:28 PM
  #119
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In my opinion, missing the playoffs will do nothing, I repeat, nothing to change the management of this team.

Even if Sather goes, chances are we get Messier and keep Sather as President? Boy, thats going to be a whole new look. Now we can have all the decision making input of Sather only with the face of a hometown hero who is going to be made to look completely infallible by the NY media. What an upgrade.

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03-30-2010, 03:33 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
If you try and teach your kid to ride a bike, and the pedals are broken, are you going to force him to continue forward with a "never give up" mentality, or are you going to stop, take some time to fix the pedals, and then see what he can do? This team is broken. It needs to be fixed. There is no point pushing forward without the proper tools.
The problem with that analogy is that a bike isn't something can grow and change over time on it's own. A sports franchise even when left alone can progress if there is already young talent in the system.

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03-30-2010, 03:34 PM
  #121
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STING and ZETTER: I just took what I thought was a pretty good sample size and then showed what the outcome was. Of course there are stories surrounding the players who didn't become part of Cup contenders but if you think the Rangers are somehow immune to some of the same things that surrounded those draft picks, then you've already forgotten all the lousy picks and unexpected events like Cherepanov's death or injuries to players like Blackburn, Cherneski and even Jessiman or players such as Baranka choosing to play overseas. And as someone already mentioned, the Rangers have been stuck with lousy management for a looooong time, so why would you expect them to get things right all of a sudden (well, then again, maybe the law of averages has to kick in some time).

JAS: It's not just that there are no guarantees, it's that even if you make the right pick and he lives up to expectations, if the other stuff surrounding that pick don't get properly handled, then the franchise won't be successful anyway. Hoping your team doesn't make the playoffs isn't anymore of a longrange view than hoping your GM makes smart picks throughout the draft or makes smart trades and signs the right UFA's.

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03-30-2010, 03:40 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
This isn't some type of time traveling communism in one franchise, or reaching enlightenment.

You want to have a better team, we have a lot of the pieces it just now takes some patience and a winning culture.
This is complete BS, if you have watched this team for any length of time you know that this does not equal a winning team! We have been down the same road so many times it is like ****ing deja vu!

We have got a couple pieces, but we are so far from competing for the cup it is ridiculous. And that is the goal...

To compete for the cup, not just try to be a playoff team.

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03-30-2010, 03:42 PM
  #123
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I'm sure these same people would have said the same thing in 1997-98, 98-99, 99-00, 00-01, 01-02, 02-03, 03-04...

First round exit or 9th place finish < top pick

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03-30-2010, 03:47 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Missing the playoffs is in no way an indictment of our young players. Not when you have highly paid players like Redden and Drury not coming close to living up to their contracts.
If you think Drury is being counted on for more production than Callahan or Dubi or that Redden is being counted on more than Staal, Girardi or Del Zotto, you're mistaken. You can't blame your team's failures on your 3rd line center and your #6 Dman. Heck, for most of our season the defense has been Staal, Girardi, DZ and Gilroy. You can't look at a team that doesn't make the playoffs and then overlook the performance of 4 of your Dmen, especially when those players were playing majore roles.

Now, don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm saying that I want my team playing well and making the playoffs because if the team is playing well and young players are being counted on to produce, then that would mean the young guys are producing and that's good for the future.

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03-30-2010, 03:50 PM
  #125
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This is argument is totally subjective. You're conveniently leaving out tons of side information that provides a different context for these players.

Does the fact that Gaborik played for a notoriously conservative Wild team, or the fact that the death of Dan Snyder led to Heatley becoming a Senator/a bit of a headcase change the fact that both are superstars? Not in my book. Both were terrific picks and are terrific players. Like him or not, DiPietro would have been very good if not for injury. Klesla and Torres were both semi-busts, for sure.

Svitov and Chistov are both complete flops, but Kovalchuk and Spezza are both franchise players. Atlanta's terrible management and ownership situation, not Kovalchuk, are to blame for their ineptitude.

And Weiss is on his way toward being a very good player. The fact that Florida is no closer to being a Cup contender might have a lot more to do with the incompetent management decisions made by Keenan and Martin, like the one where they traded arguably the best goaltender in the world for Todd Bertuzzi.

Again, Nash isn't to blame for Columbus' struggles. You're talking about an expansion team that had horrible management, like Atlanta (another fairly recent expansion team) and Florida (another fairly recent expansion team that has, basically had one good season in their 19 year history.) They've also, due to their location for the most part, been screwed over with Russian players.

Lehtonen is the same boat as DiPi. Good goalie if he isn't hurt. Bouwmeester left Florida because of bad management, not because he was a bad player. Pitkanen is a bit of an underachiever, but he's a good defenseman. Whitney is a semi-bust.

We all know Zherdev's story, but the other four are either highly successful, or in Vanek's case, only somewhat (his offer sheet saga makes him less attractive than he really is, he's just overpaid).

Barker was traded because his team way overpaid for Brian Campbell. If not for that, he'd still be a Hawk. Ladd and Wheeler were both bad picks to begin with.

Ryan is going to be one of the best power forwards in the league for years to come. He's very, very good. Johnson is one of the top 5 offensive defensemen in the league, and Pouliot, if he really has figured it out, is a heck of a power forward himself. Price was a bit of a reach by the Habs, so it's not surprising that he is still a quesiton mark.

I got about 16 or 17 being proven to be worthy of high draft picks, which is just over 50% odds. That's pretty damn good, actually. They can't control the way their teams are run. They are not GMs.

Of course there has to be other players added. That's why if this team really wanted to win, they'd field a rebuilding team next season, as well.
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
If you look deeper into those picks, you see that of the teams that drafted those players, many operate below the salary cap, like NYI, MIN, ATL, CLB and PHO. Both MIN and ATL lost those star players because of money, whether they were unable to afford said player or they were unable to afford a team around said player.

The situation would be very different were the Rangers to draft a Kovalchuk or Gaborik.

It would be more akin to what the Pens, Caps and Blackhawks have done, as they have all spent more money as the teams have improved and have thus far been able to hold onto those drafted players. Pittsburgh and Ottowa were in bankruptcy at once point (or near to it) and now both spend to the cap. So you can't point at the Atlantas of the league and say they have no success despite high draft picks. There are financial issues at play.

On top of that, some teams are just poorly run. And yes, the Rangers are one of them. But we never have to worry about spending to the cap, so we have a leg up on cash-poor teams. If we could get some competent management to go with it, we might actually win some games.

In your analysis, you only went up to 2005. There are a lot of players drafted top 5 since then that I'd LOVE to have on this team:

2006
1: Erik Johnson
2: Jordan Staal
3: Jonathan Toews
4: Nicklas Backstrom
5: Phil Kessel

2007
1: Patrick Kane
2: James VanRiemsdyk
3: Kyle Turris
4: Thomas Hickey
5: Karl Alzner

2008
1: Steven Stamkos
2: Drew Doughty
3: Zach Bogosian
4: Alex Pietrangelo
5: Luke Schenn

2009
1: John Tavares
2: Victor Hedman
3: Matt Duchene
4: Evander Kane
5: Brayden Schenn
Really good responses, guys. To which I would add one simple statement: name me the superstar players - the franchise players - in the league today who were drafted OUTSIDE the top 5. In particular the forwards.

Who do you come up with? Datsyuk? Zetterberg? Parise? A couple of others depending on how far you stretch the definition of superstar? Now compare them with the universe of picks outside the top five during all those draft years. That's a total of what - 2,050 picks (30 teams x 7 rounds x 10 years - (top 5 picks x 10 years)) that produced something like 5-10 superstars? Versus the 50 top 5 picks producing all the rest?

I can understand the emotional argument of not wanting to see the Rangers finish out of the playoffs. But the whole "you don't need a top 5 pick to draft a superstar" argument borders on the self-delusional.

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