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Old
03-31-2010, 06:41 PM
  #1
Bud2790
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Rate these D-men

Hey all, Habs fan here. I've got a quick little question for you Flyer fans. I got into an argument with another Habs fan concerning the Flyers defensmen, especially Braydon Coburn. First of all, this guy proposed a trade which is the following: Halak+Spacek for Hartnell+Coburn+Marshall.

So I try telling this guy how I don't think the Flyers would trade Coburn any time soon. I'm telling him, Coburn is arguably the Flyers best defensman (defensively anyways) and he tells me he is 5th, behind Pronger, Timonen, Carle and Parent. I obviously don't get to watch many Flyer games, but I've always like Coburn and thought he was one of Philly's best d-man.

Considering only the defensive aspect of each defensman, in what order would you place Carle, Coburn, Parent, Pronger and Timonen?

Also, did the Flyers try trading away Coburn? The guy was trying to tell me Philly tried everything to get rid of him, but they weren't able..

Thanks for the help guys!

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Old
03-31-2010, 06:46 PM
  #2
ilovetheflyers8
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Here is my attempt at rating them, but I'm not a very skilled watcher of hockey games, in other words I'm not that great at analyzing the game, and I almost always watch the games on online streams which means I also have all the other distractions of the internet. So this also includes a lot of what I have gathered from reading other people's comments.

Based on defense only.

Pronger
Timonen
Coburn-Parent
Carle

edit: I think Timonen and Pronger are pretty close, and Coburn has not been playing that well this season.

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Old
03-31-2010, 06:51 PM
  #3
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Defensively

Pronger
Timonen
Parent
Coburn
Carle

All around game:
Pronger
Timonen
Coburn/Carle
Parent


Coburn was our number 2 two eyars ago after timonen, but his game has regressed a bit since then. I still think he can turn it back around though

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Old
03-31-2010, 06:53 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud2790 View Post
Hey all, Habs fan here. I've got a quick little question for you Flyer fans. I got into an argument with another Habs fan concerning the Flyers defensmen, especially Braydon Coburn. First of all, this guy proposed a trade which is the following: Halak+Spacek for Hartnell+Coburn+Marshall.

So I try telling this guy how I don't think the Flyers would trade Coburn any time soon. I'm telling him, Coburn is arguably the Flyers best defensman (defensively anyways) and he tells me he is 5th, behind Pronger, Timonen, Carle and Parent. I obviously don't get to watch many Flyer games, but I've always like Coburn and thought he was one of Philly's best d-man.

Considering only the defensive aspect of each defensman, in what order would you place Carle, Coburn, Parent, Pronger and Timonen?

Also, did the Flyers try trading away Coburn? The guy was trying to tell me Philly tried everything to get rid of him, but they weren't able..

Thanks for the help guys!
Pronger and Timonen are both miles better than Coburn. He's probably fairly even with Parent and Carle.

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Old
03-31-2010, 07:10 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud2790 View Post
Hey all, Habs fan here. I've got a quick little question for you Flyer fans. I got into an argument with another Habs fan concerning the Flyers defensmen, especially Braydon Coburn. First of all, this guy proposed a trade which is the following: Halak+Spacek for Hartnell+Coburn+Marshall.

So I try telling this guy how I don't think the Flyers would trade Coburn any time soon. I'm telling him, Coburn is arguably the Flyers best defensman (defensively anyways) and he tells me he is 5th, behind Pronger, Timonen, Carle and Parent. I obviously don't get to watch many Flyer games, but I've always like Coburn and thought he was one of Philly's best d-man.

Considering only the defensive aspect of each defensman, in what order would you place Carle, Coburn, Parent, Pronger and Timonen?

Also, did the Flyers try trading away Coburn? The guy was trying to tell me Philly tried everything to get rid of him, but they weren't able..

Thanks for the help guys!
Highly unlikely. If they had made Coburn Pronger's regular partner instead of Carle, I think Coburn would be having just as good a year.

I don't like the proposed deal. Spacek is an antique and a cheap shot artist. Come up with something different and I'll have another look.

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Old
03-31-2010, 07:29 PM
  #6
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i think coburn-parent will be a solid pairing especially in another year when Pronger and Kimo may start to decline. Just as importnantly, they should come with fairly cheap contracts since their offensive numbers aren't great. I think Carle gets moved because he is one of few Flyers w/o a NMC/NTC that makes decent $$ so the Flyers can use that space.

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Old
03-31-2010, 07:43 PM
  #7
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Defensively

Pronger
Timonen
Parent
Coburn
Carle

All around game:
Pronger
Timonen
Coburn/Carle
Parent


Coburn was our number 2 two eyars ago after timonen, but his game has regressed a bit since then. I still think he can turn it back around though
This is how I rate them. I could see someone switching Coburn and Parent around on the defensive side though. It's a tricky question considering Coburn is kind of inconsistent and that Parent is always injured.

Whoever the TC was talking to is crazy for thinking Carle is better then Coburn defensively though.

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Old
03-31-2010, 07:46 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
This is how I rate them. I could see someone switching Coburn and Parent around on the defensive side though. It's a tricky question considering Coburn is kind of inconsistent and that Parent is always injured.

Whoever the TC was talking to is crazy for thinking Carle is better then Coburn defensively though.
Parent is better defensively, but he can't pass the puck well so if outlets are included in defense then Coburn could be better.

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Old
03-31-2010, 07:51 PM
  #9
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Coburn > PK Subban

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Old
03-31-2010, 08:27 PM
  #10
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Originally Posted by FlyerX View Post
Highly unlikely. If they had made Coburn Pronger's regular partner instead of Carle, I think Coburn would be having just as good a year.

I don't like the proposed deal. Spacek is an antique and a cheap shot artist. Come up with something different and I'll have another look.
Maybe, but I would say no. When Coburn was playing with Timonen, he was bringing him down. That's really hard to do consistently. I'm not saying that Pronger would suck if he was playing with Coburn, but I am saying that even Timonen couldn't make Coburn look good -- that's saying something.

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Old
03-31-2010, 08:56 PM
  #11
Bud2790
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Alright, well thanks for your imput guys.

Quote:
Coburn was our number 2 two eyars ago after timonen, but his game has regressed a bit since then. I still think he can turn it back around though
I guess that's why I was ranking Coburn a little higher, without even watching Flyer games. I've always liked the guy, so hopefully he turns it around.

Thanks again for your opinion guys!

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Old
03-31-2010, 09:18 PM
  #12
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Defense:
Timonen
Pronger
Coburn
Parent
Carle

All around:
Pronger
Timonen
Coburn/Carle
Parent

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Old
03-31-2010, 09:37 PM
  #13
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As boneheaded and bad as Coburn has been at times this season, I just can't give up on him. Unless he were being packaged in a great deal, I really want him re-signed. And definitely to a multi-year deal...look to get him locked up for another 4 or 5 years nice and cheap. If they do 1 year, I think there's a good chance he's due for a reasonable raise next year. I don't see how he can be worse than he's been at times considering how good I've seen him play at other times. He must have nowhere to go but back up. Have him collecting a paycheck that can make you feel okay about him playing on a third pairing, but expect to be getting more out of him. Even at his worst, he's an ok #5/#6...and if you get him cheap enough that you can feel ok about that, I think you absolutely have to do it.

I think there's a very good chance that Coburn's down year(s) can be a blessing in disguise as it can allow for them to re-sign him cheap. The dude just has way too much potential...he's had a couple really good games recently...and when I see him playing like that I just can't give up on him...in spite of his poor play at other times.

Now...Parent, on the other hand...he's a whole other story. I think I unfortunately may be ready to give up on him. I've held out and held out and tried to be on his bandwagon for so long...but man, his puck skills and decision-making with the puck are so bad at times, that it really makes it difficult for him to even be a worthwhile NHL defenseman. It's always been an issue...one I've always been hoping would get better, but it just hasn't...he doesn't seem to be improving in that regard.


By the way, speaking of Coburn's poor play...I'm trying to remember but can't, maybe someone can help...what game was it a short while ago where Coburn had that ultimate triple failure of a play? First, he made a horrid stretch pass that was intercepted...then he stepped up on the play and made a horrid decision of how to play it and totally blew the coverage....then after all the mess he had created, he still had an opportunity to make it all okay, as an initial save was made and he could have cleared the rebound or eliminated the man in front...yet he made another awful decision and went spilling over Boosh(I think it was Boosh) and to the ice as the man in front slammed the puck home. That play should be on Youtube...I wonder if it is. I mean, that was seriously one of the ugliest individual plays I've ever seen.

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Old
04-01-2010, 07:44 AM
  #14
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I dont understand how everyone can forget so soon Parent's play with Timonen in the playoffs. They were so good defensively it was scary. Take him away from the Coburn and Bartulis's of the world and see what he can do.

Since Pronger got traded here I wanted him paired with Parent. Carle will never be as good as Parent defensively so Pronger should be coaching Parent. Ah well, I hope the Flyers dont give up on him.

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Old
04-01-2010, 09:40 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by JSTAFF View Post
I dont understand how everyone can forget so soon Parent's play with Timonen in the playoffs. They were so good defensively it was scary. Take him away from the Coburn and Bartulis's of the world and see what he can do.

Since Pronger got traded here I wanted him paired with Parent. Carle will never be as good as Parent defensively so Pronger should be coaching Parent. Ah well, I hope the Flyers dont give up on him.

Parent did play very well when paired with Timonen last year but you have to remember a few things. Parent kept things very simple, he needed to because he sitill really isn't very experienced in the NHL. Timonen carried that pairing and he covered for many mistakes that Parent made each game. However, the mistakes that Parent did make weren't so catrastrophic that Timonen COULDN'T cover them up. Timonen seems to communicate very well on the ice to his partner and it showed last year with Parent and 2 years ago with Coburn when Coburn too was pretty inexperienced and just kept things simple in the defensive zone.

I've said it before that pretty much the only reason we DON'T have Parent with Timonen right now is that Krachek and Coburn would be a terrible 3rd pairing if they got caught out on the ice together against the other teams top line.

This is going to sounf cruel or something but I think that half of Coburns problems is that he's been trying to think out there on the ice this year and last year as opposed to 2 years ago when he was paired with either Hatcher or Timonen and one of them basically told him what to do all the time and Coburn didn't have to think. Coburn just seems to make many bad decisions when left to think for himself. I think he needs more mentoring from either Timonen or Pronger until he learns to read developing plays better. I still believe that he CAN learn to do it but if he's left to figure things out on his own we'll suffer through more years of frustrating play from him. He's got the talent to be a solid 2/3 dman, he just needs to get the mental aspect and much of that can come with experience and mentoring.

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Old
04-01-2010, 10:24 AM
  #16
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Coburn is worse than carle, but better than parent by a good deal.

Keep in mind coburn has been with timonen for most of the year (not too shabby)

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Old
04-01-2010, 10:26 AM
  #17
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Coburn is worse than carle, but better than parent by a good deal.

Keep in mind coburn has been with timonen for most of the year (not too shabby)

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04-01-2010, 10:29 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Coburn is worse than carle, but better than parent by a good deal.

Keep in mind coburn has been with timonen for most of the year (not too shabby)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Coburn is worse than carle, but better than parent by a good deal.

Keep in mind coburn has been with timonen for most of the year (not too shabby)
Sweet post n00b!

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Old
04-01-2010, 10:46 AM
  #19
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Haha I hope this double posts

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Old
04-01-2010, 11:11 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by Bud2790 View Post
Hey all, Habs fan here. I've got a quick little question for you Flyer fans. I got into an argument with another Habs fan concerning the Flyers defensmen, especially Braydon Coburn. First of all, this guy proposed a trade which is the following: Halak+Spacek for Hartnell+Coburn+Marshall.

So I try telling this guy how I don't think the Flyers would trade Coburn any time soon. I'm telling him, Coburn is arguably the Flyers best defensman (defensively anyways) and he tells me he is 5th, behind Pronger, Timonen, Carle and Parent. I obviously don't get to watch many Flyer games, but I've always like Coburn and thought he was one of Philly's best d-man.

Considering only the defensive aspect of each defensman, in what order would you place Carle, Coburn, Parent, Pronger and Timonen?

Also, did the Flyers try trading away Coburn? The guy was trying to tell me Philly tried everything to get rid of him, but they weren't able..

Thanks for the help guys!
Coburn is our 4th Dman overall right now, behind Pronger, Timonen and Carle. Defensively he's probably 4th, with Parent jumping ahead of him and Carle.

I think he's going to continue to develop into a solid top pairing guy and I hope we keep him for a long, long time.

Parent is very good defensively and is a decent passer, but he will never have the offense to make him a top pair guy, imho.

I like Bartulis too, so there is going to be a log jam. Oskars is very solid and unflappable and is playing very well for a rookie.

The guy you left out was Krajicek, who has been playing in the top 4 with Timonen since he joined the Flyers and has looked great doing so. It's hard to tell if they will re-sign him or not. That will probably be detemined by whether they trade one of the other guys (Carle or Parent, I hope not Coburn).

As far as your friend's proposed: Halak+Spacek for Hartnell+Coburn+Marshall.

We don't need or want Spacek for starters, so not interested.

The Habs will keep Halak and deal Price, so let's talk about Carey if you're sending us a goalie.

Philly gives up WAY too much in the deal. If all of them reach their full potential, Coburn is probably the best player in the deal. A guy that big, that fast and that talented is just too much to give up on.

Marshall is our best D prospect and we need to find room for him in the lineup after one more year in the AHL, which puts Parent in a precarious spot as one of our other mid-sized defensive Dmen.

I don't think Halak is anything but a decent mid-level starter. Certainly not a star and not yet even a proven commodity. If Montreal was smart, they'd sign both of them and see who plays best next year before trading one (as Bob Mackenzie said last night). Why trade Price when his value is down?

I might give you Hartnell in a package for Price (since Giroux and JVR are off limits), but he's got a NTC.

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Old
04-01-2010, 11:38 AM
  #21
claude boivin lives
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I dont understand how everyone can forget so soon Parent's play with Timonen in the playoffs. They were so good defensively it was scary.
Well, that is a fair point to bring up. And it wasn't just the play-offs that they were good together, there's been a significant chunk of time in the regular season too. I was so glad to see them together when it finally happened because I had been wanting to see it for a very long time. I knew they could be a great pairing and think that's still the case in spite of Parent's deficiencies.

Yeah, when I look at it from that angle, my thoughts on keeping Parent do change a bit. It's similar to the Matt Carle situation. If Carle didn't have Pronger to play with, there's a good chance I'd be okay with dealing Carle. If Timonen-Parent make a great pairing, and we can keep Parent for dirt cheap...then why not do it? I guess it becomes a matter of whether or not the coach and organization thinks he fits there, or if they want Coburn do get back to playing with Kimmo more. We'll see...but we do need to save money where we can, and keeping both Coburn and Parent should hopefully be a pretty cheap option. If we stick Parent next to Kimmo, I'm fine with keeping all 7 of the guys we have now as our 7 for next year. Have Bartulis and Krajicek battle it out for 6/7...

Timonen-Parent
Pronger-Carle
Coburn-Bartulis/Krajicek

If that third pair turns out to be disastrous, I'm sure we could swing a deal to fix it....but I think they'll be okay enough. Only issue is...for the steady play I'm hoping to see from Coburn, I'll want him playing more than 3rd pairing minutes. Maybe if Coburn is looking really solid, we could start thinking about dealing Carle. And then maybe even bring in a cheap, fairly steady stay at home type of guy to play on the 3rd pairing alongside Bart or Krajicek. I worry though, that there's a good chance we won't be very happy with Krajicek if he starts playing regularly without Timonen. Just from his play here, I probably wouldn't say that. It's more his past that leads me to do so. That issue is a little complicated too...if you have multiple guys that are really cheap and look good playing with Kimmo, who do you keep? I don't see it as a very easy decision for the organization.


Last edited by claude boivin lives: 04-01-2010 at 11:44 AM.
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Old
04-01-2010, 12:03 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
Well, that is a fair point to bring up. And it wasn't just the play-offs that they were good together, there's been a significant chunk of time in the regular season too. I was so glad to see them together when it finally happened because I had been wanting to see it for a very long time. I knew they could be a great pairing and think that's still the case in spite of Parent's deficiencies.

Yeah, when I look at it from that angle, my thoughts on keeping Parent do change a bit. It's similar to the Matt Carle situation. If Carle didn't have Pronger to play with, there's a good chance I'd be okay with dealing Carle. If Timonen-Parent make a great pairing, and we can keep Parent for dirt cheap...then why not do it? I guess it becomes a matter of whether or not the coach and organization thinks he fits there, or if they want Coburn do get back to playing with Kimmo more. We'll see...but we do need to save money where we can, and keeping both Coburn and Parent should hopefully be a pretty cheap option. If we stick Parent next to Kimmo, I'm fine with keeping all 7 of the guys we have now as our 7 for next year. Have Bartulis and Krajicek battle it out for 6/7...

Timonen-Parent
Pronger-Carle
Coburn-Bartulis/Krajicek

If that third pair turns out to be disastrous, I'm sure we could swing a deal to fix it....but I think they'll be okay enough. Only issue is...for the steady play I'm hoping to see from Coburn, I'll want him playing more than 3rd pairing minutes. Maybe if Coburn is looking really solid, we could start thinking about dealing Carle. And then maybe even bring in a cheap, fairly steady stay at home type of guy to play on the 3rd pairing alongside Bart or Krajicek. I worry though, that there's a good chance we won't be very happy with Krajicek if he starts playing regularly without Timonen. Just from his play here, I probably wouldn't say that. It's more his past that leads me to do so. That issue is a little complicated too...if you have multiple guys that are really cheap and look good playing with Kimmo, who do you keep? I don't see it as a very easy decision for the organization.
The main problem with keeping all of the D-men is the fact that we need a goalie. Either need the cap space from Carle, or the trade value of Coburn to get a goalie seeing that we have no draft picks and virtually 0 top-end prospects.

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04-01-2010, 12:51 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
Well, that is a fair point to bring up. And it wasn't just the play-offs that they were good together, there's been a significant chunk of time in the regular season too. I was so glad to see them together when it finally happened because I had been wanting to see it for a very long time. I knew they could be a great pairing and think that's still the case in spite of Parent's deficiencies.

Yeah, when I look at it from that angle, my thoughts on keeping Parent do change a bit. It's similar to the Matt Carle situation. If Carle didn't have Pronger to play with, there's a good chance I'd be okay with dealing Carle. If Timonen-Parent make a great pairing, and we can keep Parent for dirt cheap...then why not do it? I guess it becomes a matter of whether or not the coach and organization thinks he fits there, or if they want Coburn do get back to playing with Kimmo more. We'll see...but we do need to save money where we can, and keeping both Coburn and Parent should hopefully be a pretty cheap option. If we stick Parent next to Kimmo, I'm fine with keeping all 7 of the guys we have now as our 7 for next year. Have Bartulis and Krajicek battle it out for 6/7...

Timonen-Parent
Pronger-Carle
Coburn-Bartulis/Krajicek

If that third pair turns out to be disastrous, I'm sure we could swing a deal to fix it....but I think they'll be okay enough. Only issue is...for the steady play I'm hoping to see from Coburn, I'll want him playing more than 3rd pairing minutes. Maybe if Coburn is looking really solid, we could start thinking about dealing Carle. And then maybe even bring in a cheap, fairly steady stay at home type of guy to play on the 3rd pairing alongside Bart or Krajicek. I worry though, that there's a good chance we won't be very happy with Krajicek if he starts playing regularly without Timonen. Just from his play here, I probably wouldn't say that. It's more his past that leads me to do so. That issue is a little complicated too...if you have multiple guys that are really cheap and look good playing with Kimmo, who do you keep? I don't see it as a very easy decision for the organization.
i like this, especially with coburn on the 3rd line

but when do we stop this 3 scoring lines bullsh!t?

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Old
04-01-2010, 01:42 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Bud2790 View Post
Hey all, Habs fan here. I've got a quick little question for you Flyer fans. I got into an argument with another Habs fan concerning the Flyers defensmen, especially Braydon Coburn. First of all, this guy proposed a trade which is the following: Halak+Spacek for Hartnell+Coburn+Marshall.

So I try telling this guy how I don't think the Flyers would trade Coburn any time soon. I'm telling him, Coburn is arguably the Flyers best defensman (defensively anyways) and he tells me he is 5th, behind Pronger, Timonen, Carle and Parent. I obviously don't get to watch many Flyer games, but I've always like Coburn and thought he was one of Philly's best d-man.

Considering only the defensive aspect of each defensman, in what order would you place Carle, Coburn, Parent, Pronger and Timonen?

Also, did the Flyers try trading away Coburn? The guy was trying to tell me Philly tried everything to get rid of him, but they weren't able..

Thanks for the help guys!
The thing with Coburn is that at least to me he's never seemed right since he took that puck in the eye in the 2008 ECF. In the recent games against Atlanta he was a minus 5 in both games & was on the ice for 6 of the 8 goals the Flyers allowed.

Holmgren has said they expected more of him this year. As a RFA he's entitled to a 10% raise so next season he'll make $1.43 million minimum. I can't see Holmgren paying him much more than that.

Also, Hartnell + Coburn + Marshall for Spacek & Halak blows. Spacek stinks & is due $3.8 million 2 more seasons.

Coburn for Spacek is pretty much a lateral move with the Flyers adding $2 million in salary. Pass.

Halak will be RFA this summer so he'll probably get/want the same money Hartnell is getting if not more. And the Flyers would be losing a scoring winger without replacing him. I know he's had a tough year but he's a pretty consistent 25-27 goals/yr guy.

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04-01-2010, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
Maybe, but I would say no. When Coburn was playing with Timonen, he was bringing him down. That's really hard to do consistently. I'm not saying that Pronger would suck if he was playing with Coburn, but I am saying that even Timonen couldn't make Coburn look good -- that's saying something.
Coburn played his best hockey here, far and away, paired with Hatcher and Pronger is Hatcher+++, that's my reasoning there. Coburn also plays the right side with Kimmo and the reality is Coburn just doesn't play as well on the off D. He is a left defenseman.

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