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Should Lowe Be Given A Free Pass?

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Old
03-30-2010, 12:02 PM
  #26
MinnesotaFats
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Originally Posted by Crabbypants View Post
I'm sure Lowe was presented with this situation:

Horcoff: If I don't get good money I'm hitting the FA market. (I'm sure he would have had a similar contract from another team if he was a UFA)

Pisani, Moreau, Staios, etc etc: "If we don't get good money we're hitting FA. Look at what we did for the team in 06."

There were some really bad contracts, but if he let those guys walk there would have been NO ONE left to play for the team.
That is bull crap. What you're saying is that Lowe had no choice. If that is the case, why even have a GM? Part of being a GM is making those types of hard decisions, especially in the cap world. Aside from the Hemsky contract, Lowe has been astonishingly terrible at valuing players and managing a cap. He might have an eye for talent, but Id be surprised if the guy can even balance his cheque book. You say you aren't giving him a free pass, but thats exactly what you are doing.

Lowe should step down now that Tambo is starting to tear down the expensive monstrosity that Lowe foolishly built.

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Old
03-30-2010, 12:05 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Gone View Post
A vast improvement in drafting would suggest some quality picks from rounds 3/4 and on that will contribute to this team. Where are they? Gagner and MPS are a product of serendipity.
It's still early to evaluate but the later rounds look promising. Plus, Petry with a mid-2nd round pick is looking good.

Omark with a 4th round pick is also looking smart.

Philippe Cornet in the 5th round, Troy Hesketh in the 3rd.

They're averaging essentially one mid-to-late rounder per draft (or almost) which is pretty good when you look at what most other teams are pulling off.

As for 2007, the jury's still out on Plante and Nash but they're not busts yet either. There were a lot of sub-par picks in the opening round that year.

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Old
03-30-2010, 12:10 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by MinnesotaFats View Post
That is bull crap. What you're saying is that Lowe had no choice. If that is the case, why even have a GM? Part of being a GM is making those types of hard decisions, especially in the cap world. Aside from the Hemsky contract, Lowe has been astonishingly terrible at valuing players and managing a cap. He might have an eye for talent, but Id be surprised if the guy can even balance his cheque book. You say you aren't giving him a free pass, but thats exactly what you are doing.

Lowe should step down now that Tambo is starting to tear down the expensive monstrosity that Lowe foolishly built.
I don't expect you to agree with me, but given the circumstances of the free agent market, and the reputation of the team those few years I honestly believe that there really wasn't much for the team in terms of gathering players.

None/very few of us are privy to inside information, but do you think a whole lot of teams wanted Oilers players (in terms of trading), or free agents were willing to sign here? If as a GM you were presented with the few players you had left prepared to leave to other teams would you not try to hold on to what you had? I can obviously admit that most of the agents took him to the cleaners over it.

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03-30-2010, 12:13 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Crabbypants View Post
I don't expect you to agree with me, but given the circumstances of the free agent market, and the reputation of the team those few years I honestly believe that there really wasn't much for the team in terms of gathering players.

None/very few of us are privy to inside information, but do you think a whole lot of teams wanted Oilers players (in terms of trading), or free agents were willing to sign here? If as a GM you were presented with the few players you had left prepared to leave to other teams would you not try to hold on to what you had? I can obviously admit that most of the agents took him to the cleaners over it.
Or maybe Lowe just isn't very good at cap management. It's certainly possible he over valued certain players.

The Pisani deal I could give him a pass on, but some of the others ... not so much.

Then again though Tambellini has already wet the bed himself with the Khabibulin signing which could be just as bad as any of Lowe's signings.

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Old
03-30-2010, 12:22 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Crabbypants View Post
I don't expect you to agree with me, but given the circumstances of the free agent market, and the reputation of the team those few years I honestly believe that there really wasn't much for the team in terms of gathering players.

None/very few of us are privy to inside information, but do you think a whole lot of teams wanted Oilers players (in terms of trading), or free agents were willing to sign here? If as a GM you were presented with the few players you had left prepared to leave to other teams would you not try to hold on to what you had? I can obviously admit that most of the agents took him to the cleaners over it.
If no one wanted Oilers players, why did Lowe have to sign and overpay them? If that was the case, he shouldnt have been afraid to let them test the market. At the very least, he should have played hard ball and made more modest contract offers. Lowe's negotiating tactic seems to be, offer them the highest amount your willing to pay. If they accept it, great. If not, see you later (re: Ryan Smyth).

Face it, when it comes to contracts and cap management, Lowe is clueless.

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03-30-2010, 12:30 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by MinnesotaFats View Post
If no one wanted Oilers players, why did Lowe have to sign and overpay them? If that was the case, he shouldnt have been afraid to let them test the market. At the very least, he should have played hard ball and made more modest contract offers. Lowe's negotiating tactic seems to be, offer them the highest amount your willing to pay. If they accept it, great. If not, see you later (re: Ryan Smyth).

Face it, when it comes to contracts and cap management, Lowe is clueless.
I absolutely agree with this, and as Soundwave wrote, it's very possible (or even obvious) that he over-valued many of his players. I'm all for tough-love when it comes to contracts for unproven players, however, I just don't see it as black and white as most do.

The Hemsky contract has been doing us wonders, so amongst a crap pile of them there's a decent one, so it would be difficult to admit that he's completely clueless. I would also assume there are a few people within the organization to control cap issues, or at least help out with them besides Lowe.

It does, however, seem as if we are going to go in circles if we continue .


Last edited by Oilbender: 03-30-2010 at 12:43 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old
03-30-2010, 12:35 PM
  #32
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We could have Sutter as a GM and not be in the playoffs and not have any prospects in the cupboard.

People need to remember when some of those contracts got signed, like Pisani, right after the cup run and no one seemed upset then
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=265104

And Moreau's signing
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=297629

I could bring up the Horcoff thread again too... with so many posters here just thrilled with his extension.

Not too many people here on the boards were that upset over these signings, also no one could see into the future not even Lowe, I mean Pronger just ditched the city and the media was ravenous when it came to the city, they all threw this city under the bus.

I can tell you if I had a choice to be the GM in Edmonton or somewhere else I would choose somewhere else.

The only thing i will Blame Lowe for is the Smyth trade. Other than that It seems that Edmonton almost has to overpay to get some players to stay here. Also no one thought the Cap would decrease or stay the same, it was increasing yearly by about 5 million so at the time those deals did not look too bad, in hindsight they do.

When Lowe and the Oilers made it to game 7 he was touted as the best GM in the league by the posters here. How soon everyone forgets.

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Old
03-30-2010, 12:39 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
Free pass? No

Should he be blamed for what has happened in the last 18 months? No

In my opinion Tambellini has more to do with the 30th place ranking than Lowe does.
WHAT?

moreau, staios, horcoff, pisani, souray, ect ECT, this was fricken lowe.

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Old
03-30-2010, 12:43 PM
  #34
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Yes. He should be given a free pass. To GTFOutsville.

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03-30-2010, 12:48 PM
  #35
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I do think it's a little baffling that he went out and resigned Moreau and Staois to extensions before getting Smyth taken care of.

Though if we had retained Smyth we probably don't have Gagner, MPS, and Hall/Seguin (our draft position would likely be lower every year).

The Pisani deal he should be given a pass on, there would've been a riot in town had he not resigned Pisani and no one could've forseen the Colitis thing.

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03-30-2010, 12:49 PM
  #36
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Yes. He should be given a free pass. To GTFOutsville.
This really made my morning. Hahahaha

Well played.

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Old
03-30-2010, 12:49 PM
  #37
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To tell you the truth, I am actualy quite pleased with where our team is today. I've said for years it sucks to be an Oiler fan as well as a Flames fan. The reason I said this is because I did'nt feel the fans were willing to go through a rebuild ala Pittsburg/Chicago. Sure, Kevin Lowe made some mistakes which included acting a little premature on Pronger.

As far as bad contracts go, I guess that he thought the league was in a nice growth period after the lockout. One would have to assume the cap was going to continue to rise. No GM in the league could have predicted the economic melt down.

I guess my only beef is that he did'nt recognize the opportunity to blow it up sooner. The only fortunate thing to happen to the Oilers is the unfortunate. Had the Oiler not had such massive injury problems over the last three years we would have finnished middle of the pack as usual. Our curse became our blessing when we were getting nice draft pics because of our injuries.

Any ways my piont is, if we had done a proper rebuild say after the Ryan Smith ordeal. We would probably be looking at the Stamkos/Hedman/Duchene...you get my point.

So on the bright side of our injuries, you just have to look down the QE2 and see where we probably would be if we did'nt have them.

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Old
03-30-2010, 12:58 PM
  #38
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For any of you who think Lowe has the final say on decisions... you're wrong. He's allowed his input and that's about it. This is Tambo's team. Tambo might ask for Lowe's opinion, but the final call goes to Tambo.

And if you want to lose credibility, keep blaming Tambo for the mess this team is in. He's pulling this team out of the dark.


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03-30-2010, 01:10 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by SlowFreshOil View Post
For any of you who think Lowe has the final say on decisions... you're wrong. He's allowed his input and that's about it. This is Tambo's team. Tambo might ask for Lowe's opinion, but the final call goes to Tambo.
You're right. I'm sure Tambellini doesn't have to run things by his, you know, boss.

Quote:
And if you want to lose credibility, keep blaming Tambo for the mess this team is in.
He's not at fault for the mess. But he hasn't helped. If Hemsky and Khabibulin (Tambo's own Lowe contract) don't go down and the team is sitting around 10th or 12th, do you think Tambellini would be pushing a rebuild or would he stay the course set by his predecessor? A lot of fans figured a rebuild was necessary as far back as last summer (if not beyond), but there's little evidence to indicate management was on board until injuries forced their hand. That indicates a lack of foresight and situational awareness on their part.

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03-30-2010, 01:11 PM
  #40
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Isn't this what Tambellini did this summer with Heatley? The only difference is that when Lowe went big game hunting, he didn't do after players who had not intentions of signing with the Oilers. From what I understood, Hossa to Edmonton was a possibility until the end - Hossa said so himself. In the end, he chose a chance to win a cup, and rightfully so.

Lowe had his flaws and made his share of mistakes. But all things equal, I'd rather have him as GM, until Tambellini shows he can actually be an NHL GM in this league.

Remember, he was passed over a number of times in Vancouver to become the GM of the team.
To be honest I believe Lowe was still the puppet master at this point. Media reported that Tambellini, Lowe and Quinn flew to Kelowna to meet Heatley. Lowe was actively involved in decision at the time.

In fact I'm not entirely convince Lowe's hands are off, but at least we've started to make moves - trading Staois - that shows we are no longer giving unconditional loyalty to Lowe's boys.

Hopefully they bury Moreau in the minors to really make that statement.

Anyway, I still firmly believe that Heatley (and Bulin') were Lowe trying to fix the mess he made.

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03-30-2010, 01:18 PM
  #41
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To be honest I believe Lowe was still the puppet master at this point. Media reported that Tambellini, Lowe and Quinn flew to Kelowna to meet Heatley. Lowe was actively involved in decision at the time.

In fact I'm not entirely convince Lowe's hands are off, but at least we've started to make moves - trading Staois - that shows we are no longer giving unconditional loyalty to Lowe's boys.

Hopefully they bury Moreau in the minors to really make that statement.

Anyway, I still firmly believe that Heatley (and Bulin') were Lowe trying to fix the mess he made.
I totely agree. However that fixes nothing. It ony prolongs the agany, ala Calgary. Thank the hockey gods that Heatly is a *****!

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Old
03-30-2010, 01:23 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by TaylorHallFan View Post

Anyway, I still firmly believe that Heatley (and Bulin') were Lowe trying to fix the mess he made.
I think it was Lowe's doing in so far as he was responsible for setting the direction of the team and he was still pushing the "win now" model. Based on what the Oilers did last year, what did they need to compete: an elite goal scorer and a proven goaltender. Tambo did what he could to try and fill those holes (failed on both counts IMO).

Its clear now that they are dismantling and rebuilding. But Lowe seems to bear no responsibility for the failure. Tambo seems to be pointing at the players for failing (see comments on no leadership, etc.). If some of us here are not giving Lowe a free pass, Katz and his hockey operations group seem to be.

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Old
03-30-2010, 01:37 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by MinnesotaFats View Post
I think it was Lowe's doing in so far as he was responsible for setting the direction of the team and he was still pushing the "win now" model. Based on what the Oilers did last year, what did they need to compete: an elite goal scorer and a proven goaltender. Tambo did what he could to try and fill those holes (failed on both counts IMO).

Its clear now that they are dismantling and rebuilding. But Lowe seems to bear no responsibility for the failure. Tambo seems to be pointing at the players for failing (see comments on no leadership, etc.). If some of us here are not giving Lowe a free pass, Katz and his hockey operations group seem to be.
When the guy that hired you is advocating "win now" and he's coming with you to try and sign players he might as well be the GM imo. And basically that's what you have said in this thread.

And I agree there has been zero responsibility/accountability by management for "what's happened here."

And I agree about Katz. Does anybody think the EIG would still have Lowe around through this mess? The group that fired Sather?

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03-30-2010, 01:42 PM
  #44
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When the guy that hired you is advocating "win now" and he's coming with you to try and sign players he might as well be the GM imo. And basically that's what you have said in this thread.

And I agree there has been zero responsibility/accountability by management for "what's happened here."

And I agree about Katz. Does anybody think the EIG would still have Lowe around through this mess? The group that fired Sather?
That is one benefit of EIG's eye-on-the-bottom-line approach. They had to be concerned about how the team performed - they couldnt risk losing money at the gate. While fans havent been flocking away in hoards, I have to believe that Lowe would have been let go by the EIG too.

Katz wants to build a winner, but seems content keeping perennial losers around.

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03-30-2010, 01:43 PM
  #45
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You're right. I'm sure Tambellini doesn't have to run things by his, you know, boss.
I'm sorry, but what's the point of having the GM position then? My point was, the only thing Tambo has to get approval on is contracts. That's it. If you think Lowe is telling him who can and can't be on the team, who he can, and can't trade, you're mistaken. The only way I see Lowe stepping in and stopping a trade or signing, is if it's totally from out in left field. This is Tambo's team now, not Lowe's.


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03-30-2010, 01:48 PM
  #46
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My prediction is that Kevin Lowe will quietly leave the Oilers' organization on his own accord with in the next 3 seasons- sooner if the rebuild looks to be working.

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03-30-2010, 01:49 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by MerryJ99 View Post
We could have Sutter as a GM and not be in the playoffs and not have any prospects in the cupboard.

People need to remember when some of those contracts got signed, like Pisani, right after the cup run and no one seemed upset then
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=265104

And Moreau's signing
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=297629

I could bring up the Horcoff thread again too... with so many posters here just thrilled with his extension.

Not too many people here on the boards were that upset over these signings, also no one could see into the future not even Lowe, I mean Pronger just ditched the city and the media was ravenous when it came to the city, they all threw this city under the bus.

I can tell you if I had a choice to be the GM in Edmonton or somewhere else I would choose somewhere else.

The only thing i will Blame Lowe for is the Smyth trade. Other than that It seems that Edmonton almost has to overpay to get some players to stay here. Also no one thought the Cap would decrease or stay the same, it was increasing yearly by about 5 million so at the time those deals did not look too bad, in hindsight they do.

When Lowe and the Oilers made it to game 7 he was touted as the best GM in the league by the posters here. How soon everyone forgets.
Great post. So many people were on board with every move he has made, then calling him a idiot in retropsect when he did somethign they approved??? hmmmm, doesn't any one see how that works.

Any way, I dont' think many people appreciate how hard of a road Lowe has had. He took over a team with no prospects and a bottom of the league salery. pre lock out he was one of the few GMs to actually put out a competative team with no pay roll.

Post lock out he came 1 goal from the cup, No if and or buts, that is dam good.

Since then he finally has money to sign UFA, but nobody wants to come, Pronger skipped town, and we have ben plagued with crazy injuries. He has had a big up hill battle since 06, yet he has stockpiled the system with pics and young players.

Could he have done better? Of course, but this black and white view that he is a idiot is just ridiculous and not supported by the majority of the NHL.

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03-30-2010, 01:58 PM
  #48
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These Tambo/Lowe threads are always insane, and never rooted in reality.

First off, every organization has a hierarchy, and every GM in the league has a boss. If it wasn't Kevin Lowe, Tambellini would be reporting to someone else like LaForge or Katz, people who don't have nearly the hockey knowledge as Lowe. And if all Lowe has to do is sign off on trades and signings, what is honestly the worst he could do? Throw in an extra million dollars on a contract? Give another team an extra pick in a trade? Just to show that the Oilers really care about long term relationships? Please. Tambellini/Olczyk/Prendergast do the legwork, they kick it upstairs, and if the entire team things it's a good move, I'm sure Lowe approves. I have a hard time seeing him using his veto power just to be a jerk, and i'm not sure where that sentiment comes from. Lowe had a so-so tenure as GM. The moves at the end were really weak, but he also made some brilliant trades and signings that no one ever cares to mention. The fact that our GM is reporting to a guy with good hockey sense is a good thing, not a bad thing. These opinions are all based on scapegoating and whining and not at all around actual facts or an understanding of how organizations are run. For what it's worth, Hockey Canada seems to have a very high opinion of him (I guess 2 gold medals in 3 Olympics will do that).

Second, I hate the nature of these threads. During the bulk of the season, when no teams are making any trades, everyone whines about how Tambellini hasn't pulled the trigger yet, but then when he does something positive (i.e. acquire O'Sullivan for Cole, fire MacT, or more recently, unloading Staios) everyone says "You know, I'm starting to come around on Tambellini." But next year, when the Oilers are a bubble team (at best), the impatience among the fanbase will rear its ugly head. Book it.

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Old
03-30-2010, 02:04 PM
  #49
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2006 - The only player to play in the NHL from this draft is Peckham. A marginal #6 - 7 defender. Petry continues to look like a quality prospect and has yet to play one NHL game. Until he plays in the show, he is still a prospect.

2007 - Gagner was the obvious choice at 6th. Even a monkey would of picked him here. Plante and Nash were utter failures as first round picks, indicative of terrible hockey managment.

2008 - Eberle looks to be a heck of a pick at 22nd, but has yet to play a game in the NHL. Even a blind squirrel will find a nut now and then.

2009 - Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson unexpectedly falls to 10th. This is an incredibly deep draft in which reminds me of the 2003 draft. No suprise here and no indication of better drafting, just because we don't make a stupid mistake like Pouliot.

A vast improvement in drafting would suggest some quality picks from rounds 3/4 and on that will contribute to this team. Where are they? Gagner and MPS are a product of serendipity.

As for the trade it is looking like Smid and Eberle for Pronger. We should of got a franchise player back. Again KLowe acting with emotion rather than logic.
The funny thing about drafting is GM's act based on the scouts' reccommendations. It really is the scouts as a group assessing talent and then telling the GM which one or two players they want at this pick. However, management picks the scouts, so it is a GM's job to ensure a competent scouting staff.

That being said, you're mistaken about Gagner. There was a concensus top 5 of Kane, Van Riemsdyk, Turris, Alzner, and Voracek. It's likely the majority of teams would have picked Voracek over Gagner. Which was the right choice, is still up in the air.

Plante and Nash can't be written off yet, and no other first rounders past 15 besides David Perron are full time NHLers. Gillies and Pacioretty have played part seasons. The rest of the 15 players picked in the 1st after Plante are in the same place as Plante and Nash.

There are plenty of lower round prospects that are looking good. Cornet, Hartkainen, Roy, Omark, Peckham are just some of the names.

These are all just prospects, and we don't know what the final product will be. But based on how they're doing as prospects, I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise than that drafting seems to have improved in recent years.

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03-30-2010, 02:59 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by MinnesotaFats View Post
I dont think its a strectch to say that Tambo was forced to continue down that path whether he believed it was right or not.
Here's a question, what changed then? I think it's a cop out to say KLowe was forcing this or had a hand in that when it comes to negatives about Tambellini and then when it appears Tambellini has does something positive there is a sudden shift in the decision making at the management level.

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