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Should Lowe Be Given A Free Pass?

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Old
03-30-2010, 04:03 PM
  #76
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Free pass? Lowe proved himself to be about as competent a GM as Mike Milbury, and Tambo is shaping up to have a very Doug MacLean-esque career at this point.

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03-30-2010, 04:05 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
As for Tambellini, his trade deadline moves look pretty good but he was really pretty terrible in his moves after last season until this deadline. He made a long passionate speech at the end of last year declaring that changes were going to be made and we were going to be oh so tough to play against. His big moves? Getting a Fa smurf and signing an injury plagued older inconsistent goaltender to a long term deal.
Every goalie has an injury history. And "inconsistent"? Sorry, but Khabby's been a pretty consistent goalie throughout his career (with the exception of 05/06).

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03-30-2010, 04:06 PM
  #78
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Free pass? Lowe proved himself to be about as competent a GM as Mike Milbury, and Tambo is shaping up to have a very Doug MacLean-esque career at this point.
Reasons for saying this, or just dropping names to sound intelligent? Because that's one of the stupidest posts I've read in this thread so far.

This thread is officially bookmarked. Some of the posts on here are going to look utterly ridiculous a year from now.


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03-30-2010, 04:07 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by nvan97 View Post
1. How is it the GMs fault that they had terrible management of the farm system? You think that they weren't trying their damnedest to get something set up?

2. See 1. The goalie problems were directly related to not having a farm system set up. As far as FA goalies go I think is retrospect Roloson was a helluva good trade/signing.

3. There are literally thousands of non-trades that teams didn't quite make that would have changed things. You have no idea what kind of player Perry would have become if he was playing for the Oilers.

4. Have you ever heard of a single player that avoids Edmonton because of the Comrie situation? Or are you just making this up from hearsay?

5. This one bothers me the most. The Oilers drafting has been not just good but one of the best in the league in the last 10 years. The Oilers were never bad enough to finish low enough to guarantee a star player but they've done pretty good considering.

Hemsky is the 3rd highest scoring player out of his draft year and was followed immediately after (14-17 picks) by Kobasew, Knyasev, Umberger, and Coliacovo.

Niniimaaki in his year didn't end up being a player but the guys that followed (16-19) were Klepis, Boyd Gordon, Grebeshkov, Koreis. Again a couple of players a couple of never weres.

That same year they drafted JDD, Stoll and Greene in the 2nd round. 3 for 3 is exceptional.

MAP is an admittedly bad pick but considering every team in the league makes them sometimes. A 3rd round Stortini and 7th round Brodziak were pretty good picks that year though.

DD wasn't a stellar pick but the Oilers recognized a need for a goalie and took their shot. He hasn't worked out great but surely he was the best one available at that point.

Cogliano was followed by (26-29) Peleck, Finley, Niskanen, Downie. Chorney (who looks to be a full-time NHLer) was followed by 4 guys with total of 12 NHL games. Even Syvret was a decent pick considering the Oilers parlayed him into Potulny.

Petry (who looks to be a top pairing guy from most reports) was followed by Enroth, Matthias, and two guys I've never heard of. Peckham (full time NHLer) was followed by 4 non-NHLers.

Guys drafted after that have plenty of time to prove themselves but include the likes of Nash, Plante, Omark, Eberle, Motin, Hartikainen, Cornet, MPS, Hesketh, Rajala, and Roy.

The Oilers, based on their average drafting position (mid-1st round), have been one of, if not the best, drafting team in the league.

6. See 1.

7. What does player management mean? Contracts? Trades? You seem to have mentioned those later as well.

8. The Oilers would not be the same team they are now if they had a top level sniper playing on the first line. And Penner, if he continues to improve, looks to be a pretty good pick up for his price tag.

9. Grebs? What exactly was wrong with his contract? Horcoff's contract was the only one that really tied there hands financially. The others, although not great, are reasonable enough terms (cap hit, length) that they wouldn't be hard to move. Maybe overpayments but not terrible by any means.

10. The Oilers dodged a bullet with that one but there was still another team willing to pay him similar money. It's not like they were the only ones pursuing him.

11. The Pronger trade was actually pretty phenomenal in hindsight. The Oilers gave up almost nothing for him (Lynch, Brewer, Woywitka) and got pretty good value back for him (Smid, O'sullivan (via Lupul, Pitkanen, Cole trades), and Eberle) Other than the Hossa for Heatley trade name a single trade that went well for the team that was trading away the star? That's right you can't name one. You never get equal value you just hope it's close.
Well said.

The thing is I would fully admit I am a bit a Lowe apologist. I tend to view a lot of what has gone wrong is just plain bad luck. I don't expect people to share my view and I am fine with being labled as some one just sympathetic to Lowe.

I aknowledge fully he has made poor decision in the last 4 years. He went from one of the best GMs to perhaps a pretty average one. As suggested before I think in some ways Edmonton is better of with no money to spend. THen they can have cheap competative teams. However giving Edmonton money is fools gold since so few player will come here.

Any way. To say some of things poeple say is beyond idiodic really. To say he ruined edmonton's Image. Crazy. And the thing about drafting, beyond dumb. Edmonton has drafted probably top 10 and maybe even top 5 in the last 10 years.

I will ask a question I have asked a few times and one seems to answer. Why was Lowe asked to be part of Team Canada, they can choose any one in the world they want to. Why would they choose the worst GM in the NHL?

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03-30-2010, 04:11 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowFreshOil View Post
Reasons for saying this, or just dropping names to sound intelligent? Because that's one of the stupidest posts I've read in this thread so far.

This thread is officially bookmarked. Some of the posts on here are going to look utterly ridiculous a year from now.
Have you listened to MacLean as a commentator? Talks a big game, likes to think he sounds smart, says a lot, but when you look at what he actually accomplished in his time at the helm of a team it's laughably bad. Hmm... talks a lot yet accomplishes nothing. Sound like anyone else we know?

Other than robbing Sutter blind with the Staios deal, Tambellini has made a complete string of moves that could, at best, be considered "suspect." And this comes after repeatedly being passed over for GM jobs for years while he worked behind the scenes in Vancouver - and look at how much success that team had while he worked there.

It only took Tambellini 2 years on the job to turn this into a LAST PLACE TEAM. It takes some serious talent to be the VERY WORST at something, and so far that's all he's shown himself to be able to do.

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03-30-2010, 04:13 PM
  #81
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That being said, I'd love nothing more than for Tambellini to come out this summer and prove me wrong. Prove to us all that his horrendously moronic summer of 2009 was an aberration never to be repeated. Show us that he actually DOES have the stones to make the required moves instead of continually assessing.

Show us that he's capable of more than talking a big game and then tripping on the finish line.

I'll happily eat crow if that happens.

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Old
03-30-2010, 04:14 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
This is pretty well 100% right on the mark. Please for the love of god don't tell me people are actually defending Kevin Lowes reign of error?

- Brutalized the farm system with neglect....check
- Alienated so many players and their families that he helped created the 'Edmonton is siberia' attitude of nhl players....check.
- Dubious draft moves...check
- Horrendous management of the salary cap....check.
- Hanging onto a coach who proved he couldn't get results.....check.
- Zero long range plan, flip flopping on the type of players the team is after time and again.

Lowe = out and out disaster in so many ways.

.
Mac t couldn't get results? sorry I guess he did fall a goal short of winning the cup.

Alienated so many players and their families that he helped created the 'Edmonton is siberia' attitude of nhl players....check.

THis point though is just so blatantly ignorant it has to be called out. I don't know K lowe personally but this is just a public insult that has no grounds. Beyond stupid.

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03-30-2010, 04:15 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by okgooil View Post
Mac t couldn't get results? sorry I guess he did fall a goal short of winning the cup.

Alienated so many players and their families that he helped created the 'Edmonton is siberia' attitude of nhl players....check.

THis point though is just so blatantly ignorant it has to be called out. I don't know K lowe personally but this is just a public insult that has no grounds. Beyond stupid.
You really think for one second the story of his horrible handling of the Mike Comrie saga didn't make the rounds at NHLPA meetings? You think that any NHL player with a single ounce of self-respect would want to listen to an offer from a GM known to try to extort his employees? Come on.

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03-30-2010, 04:19 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by The Human Torch View Post
You really think for one second the story of his horrible handling of the Mike Comrie saga didn't make the rounds at NHLPA meetings? You think that any NHL player with a single ounce of self-respect would want to listen to an offer from a GM known to try to extort his employees? Come on.
? At the time it was rumoured that many GMs applauded him.

Comrie came back, how bad could it have been. And using the word extort? well that just simply legally didn't happen. It wasn't extortion by any stretch of the law. Comrie was a Edmonton Oiler player, he was property of the Edmonton Oilers. Edmonton was allowed to seek compensation for dealing him. THats what they did and that is why any talk of legal action against Lowe died with in moments. Becuase it wasnt' close to being Illegal.

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03-30-2010, 04:20 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by The Human Torch View Post
You really think for one second the story of his horrible handling of the Mike Comrie saga didn't make the rounds at NHLPA meetings? You think that any NHL player with a single ounce of self-respect would want to listen to an offer from a GM known to try to extort his employees? Come on.
And yet 2 years later when Pronger had the power to nix the trade to Edmonton he instead signed a 5 year contract. One of the biggest deals of that summer.

Although you did qualify it with 'a single ounce of self respect' so maybe he doesn't count.

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03-30-2010, 04:24 PM
  #86
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And yet 2 years later when Pronger had the power to nix the trade to Edmonton he instead signed a 5 year contract. One of the biggest deals of that summer.

Although you did qualify it with 'a single ounce of self respect' so maybe he doesn't count.
Ya, it is something that seems to be forgotten in Pronger gate is that he was not forced here. He signed a Contract and wanted to come here. His wife hated it..... and a giant pile of crap ensured........ Pronger said he was treated with nothing but respect from the Oilers franchize and had nothing bad to say about the place. His wife thought it was to cold and small........ The sad Part is we hate pronger but at least he gave Edmonton a chance. Can't say the same For one Danny Heatly.

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03-30-2010, 04:26 PM
  #87
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Have you listened to MacLean as a commentator? Talks a big game, likes to think he sounds smart, says a lot, but when you look at what he actually accomplished in his time at the helm of a team it's laughably bad. Hmm... talks a lot yet accomplishes nothing. Sound like anyone else we know?
Comparing Doug MacLean to Tambellini is laughable. He doesn't even sound smart, whereas I've had the pleasure of actually having a conversation with Tambellini and he's way smarter than MacLean. He's acting on his words right now and accomplishing all kinds of things. Doesn't sound like MacLean to me

Quote:
Other than robbing Sutter blind with the Staios deal, Tambellini has made a complete string of moves that could, at best, be considered "suspect." And this comes after repeatedly being passed over for GM jobs for years while he worked behind the scenes in Vancouver - and look at how much success that team had while he worked there.
Grebs deal suspect? Sorry, wrong. Great move that shed salary and got rid of a duplicate player.

Whitney for Lubo? Seems like the majority of fans like the trade and it got us bigger, younger, and I'm sorry, but from what I've seen, Whitney's the better player of the two so far. His stretch passes are sick. Reminds me of what we lost with Pronger.

The guy's done EXACTLY what's needed to be done.

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It only took Tambellini 2 years on the job to turn this into a LAST PLACE TEAM. It takes some serious talent to be the VERY WORST at something, and so far that's all he's shown himself to be able to do.
So I guess Tambellini injured all those players? I guess he's at fault for the other players not stepping up when others started to go down? How about you look at the leadership of the team when laying blame? I love the fact that we're in last place. This team now has a chance to start over, something Tambo wasn't afforded until now.

I love it... last year it was MacT, this year it's Tambo with some of you. When are the players to blame?

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03-30-2010, 04:38 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by SlowFreshOil View Post
Comparing Doug MacLean to Tambellini is laughable. He doesn't even sound smart, whereas I've had the pleasure of actually having a conversation with Tambellini and he's way smarter than MacLean. He's acting on his words right now and accomplishing all kinds of things. Doesn't sound like MacLean to me
No offence but you sound like a star struck teenager.

Those breakfast/luncheons are PR exercises and there is nothing that has been has been said there that indicates he is 'acting' on anything. We heard a very passionate speech from him at the end of last season he followed it up by accomplishing squat.

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How about you look at the leadership of the team when laying blame?
Yeah how about that leadership? Those guys that probably shouldn't be here and are probably big contributors to the problem and yet remain on the team while Tambellini 'evaluates'. Hell you said that Tambellini himself still doesn't know who the core of this team is...a core goes hand in hand with leadership and yet after two seasons the guys is STILL trying to figure it out...and getting praised for it at that.

It truly is mind boggling...

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03-30-2010, 04:39 PM
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That's fair, obviously any new hire is brought in to accomplish a specific mandate. I have no doubt that the Oilers felt that they were in a position to be built upon instead of rebuilt.

Here is the rub though, Tambellini took the job and agreed to working towards that mandate. No one twisted his arm and I doubt anyone told him what he could or couldn't do to get there. They were terms he agreed to and failed miserably at.

The team went from a borderline playoff contender to a 30th placed club in the two years he was at the controls. His plan of action was non-existent and at this point there is nothing to suggest anything has changed in the last couple months.
I think you are completely ignoring the fact that the team was cap/roster committed when handed over. The only thing Tambellini could have done in his first year was manage call ups and work trades (under a mandate of win now). Lowe had handed out Horcoffs extension, tried to land Hossa or Jagr, ended up trading for Lubo and Cole and handed a pretty much cap committed team to Tambellini. He came on board on July 31, 2008 after draft day and after the UFA frenzy.

And we know trades are a hard thing to pull in the new-CBA environment. And what we have learned since is that it's even harder when your predecessor overpaid nearly everyone, so as to devalue the contracts you hold.

I don't believe a case can be made that Tambellini had any significant control or power over the 2008/09 lineup.

The earliest I think you can even begin to start assigning blame to Tambellini is two trade deadlines ago, as it was the first time Tambellini was GM during a trading period (of which I believe there are 3 a year: draft, ufa day and trade deadline). I felt the Cole deal was a good return on a UFA that did not fit in here. But I think he ran into the same issue created by his predecessor. He is trying to trade players that make too much, reducing his leverage and ability to right the ship.

Now I certainly fault Tambellini for committing to Bulin' before having Heatley locked up. But again, this is Lowe's M.O. from the previous off-season. Lowe flew to Kelowna, and I think the Bulin' signing was a reactionary thing to try and lock up Heatley. I agree if Tambellini was better/stronger GM he suggests maybe we try something different. But he was not part of the group that struck out with Hossa/Jagr, so he wouldn't have that learned experience until Heatley provided it. So how was he to manage around a problem that is unique to Edmonton (and a few other markets)? And to manage a expereince he had never encountered before? All while his boss is feeling win now?

I find that to be unreasonable.

In all honesty I don't think Tambellini is proper GM material. Anyone who can be a puppet for someone else doesn't have what it takes imo. I think he has earned a shot though, and a legitimate shot without the pay-too-much overlord watching his every move.

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03-30-2010, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SlowFreshOil View Post
Comparing Doug MacLean to Tambellini is laughable. He doesn't even sound smart, whereas I've had the pleasure of actually having a conversation with Tambellini and he's way smarter than MacLean. He's acting on his words right now and accomplishing all kinds of things. Doesn't sound like MacLean to me



Grebs deal suspect? Sorry, wrong. Great move that shed salary and got rid of a duplicate player.

Whitney for Lubo? Seems like the majority of fans like the trade and it got us bigger, younger, and I'm sorry, but from what I've seen, Whitney's the better player of the two so far. His stretch passes are sick. Reminds me of what we lost with Pronger.

The guy's done EXACTLY what's needed to be done.



So I guess Tambellini injured all those players? I guess he's at fault for the other players not stepping up when others started to go down? How about you look at the leadership of the team when laying blame? I love the fact that we're in last place. This team now has a chance to start over, something Tambo wasn't afforded until now.

I love it... last year it was MacT, this year it's Tambo with some of you. When are the players to blame?
Wow, your love-in with Tambellini knows no bounds does it? Your obviously blind to the really bad moves he's made in two years, which is amazing considering he hasn't made many to begin with. The only steal he has made is he Staios trade, which we can attribute to Sutter's growing dementia. And the Whitney trade, while surprising thus far, hinges on him recovering fully from foot surgery and continuing his good play next year. Otherwise, I'm not going to bother listing all the mistakes he's made as I've already done it before in other threads. For everyone's sake I hope he does get better as a GM with time, otherwise this team is pooched.

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03-30-2010, 04:45 PM
  #91
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No offence but you sound like a star struck teenager.

Those breakfast/luncheons are PR exercises and there is nothing that has been has been said there that indicates he is 'acting' on anything. We heard a very passionate speech from him at the end of last season he followed it up by accomplishing squat.
Jealous that I've had a conversation with him? This was before the meeting BTW.

I'm not starstruck, I'm a realist and he's doing what he can to fix what's wrong with this club.

Quote:
Yeah how about that leadership? Those guys that probably shouldn't be here and are probably big contributors to the problem and yet remain on the team while Tambellini 'evaluates'. Hell you said that Tambellini himself still doesn't know who the core of this team is...a core goes hand in hand with leadership and yet after two seasons the guys is STILL trying to figure it out...and getting praised for it at that.

It truly is mind boggling...
That says everything about Tambo right there. Lowe stuck by this "core" through thick and thin even when it was evident they were the problem. I'm happy Tambellini's trying to find the core. What was he supposed to do with those players? I know in your world there's a market for these players, but in the REAL world, no one wants them, today, or yesterday. What was Tambo supposed to do with those guys?

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03-30-2010, 04:46 PM
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The earliest I think you can even begin to start assigning blame to Tambellini is two trade deadlines ago, as it was the first time Tambellini was GM during a trading period (of which I believe there are 3 a year: draft, ufa day and trade deadline).
I agree completely. I also agree that KLowe sold him a bill of goods that turned out to be less than the sum of it's parts.

However, from that trade deadline Tambellini has either maintained the status quo or made regressive moves. Neither of which speak highly of him when assessing the job he has done.

As I said inmy original post, Lowe doesn't get a free pass here but Tambellini needs to wear a good portion of the stink as well for where the Oilers are sitting today.

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03-30-2010, 04:49 PM
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I like how people who like to hold up the 2006 Cup run as some monumental achievement of Kevin Lowe forget about all the years of missed playoffs or first round exists that the team had under his management. The 2006 team was mediocre until the trade deadline additions. Those deals were astute, but at the end of the day, the team still caught lightning in a bottle with that run.

All GMs do make bad moves, yes. Lowe made too many of them and wasnt able to fix them. His trading record is above average IMO. Its his contract management that was brutal, and in a cap world you're only as good as your how you can manage your dollars.
But getting within one game of the Stanley Cup is a pretty big achievement.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's the greatest thing of all time.

But people make it sound like he was the worst GM ever. He wasn't. He was an above average one.

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03-30-2010, 04:52 PM
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Jealous that I've had a conversation with him? This was before the meeting BTW.
Not in the least, you probably shouldn't assume that opportunities to meet people of his ilk are reserved only for you.

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Lowe stuck by this "core" through thick and thin even when it was evident they were the problem.
Really? So here's a question, if it was evident even when Lowe was GMing, why did Tambellini stick with them for ANOTHER two years afterwards?

And spare me the "real world" comments, there are plenty of examples of bad contracts being moved by other GM's.

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03-30-2010, 04:55 PM
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Wow, your love-in with Tambellini knows no bounds does it? Your obviously blind to the really bad moves he's made in two years, which is amazing considering he hasn't made many to begin with. The only steal he has made is he Staios trade, which we can attribute to Sutter's growing dementia. And the Whitney trade, while surprising thus far, hinges on him recovering fully from foot surgery and continuing his good play next year. Otherwise, I'm not going to bother listing all the mistakes he's made as I've already done it before in other threads. For everyone's sake I hope he does get better as a GM with time, otherwise this team is pooched.
I'm not even going to bother with your laughable post.

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03-30-2010, 05:02 PM
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I'm not sold on Tambellini. If he really intended to rebuild, chasing after Heatley and signing Khabi seem awfully inconsistent with that plan. He stumbled onto a rebuild by mistake and now we are going to hope he handles that properly...

Really, signing Khabi should be enough to get him fired (as others have said many times better than I)

Firing the whole management team would show people that Katz is serious about changing things.

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03-30-2010, 05:04 PM
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Not in the least, you probably shouldn't assume that opportunities to meet people of his ilk are reserved only for you.
Never said they were. But you came off that way by calling me star struck. I guess I must be like that everyday considering I work with all kinds of celebrities...

Quote:
Really? So here's a question, if it was evident even when Lowe was GMing, why did Tambellini stick with them for ANOTHER two years afterwards?

And spare me the "real world" comments, there are plenty of examples of bad contracts being moved by other GM's.
Did Tambo extend any of those contracts? Did he sign the players to those said contracts?

Once again, where's this market for these players? Answer the question. There isn't one so he's been STUCK with them.

It is the real world and some of you need to get back to it. Sure there's bad contracts that get moved, but here's the kicker, those players still have/had value.

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03-30-2010, 05:05 PM
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I'm not sold on Tambellini. If he really intended to rebuild, chasing after Heatley and signing Khabi seem awfully inconsistent with that plan. He stumbled onto a rebuild by mistake and now we are going to hope he handles that properly...

Really, signing Khabi should be enough to get him fired (as others have said many times better than I)

Firing the whole management team would show people that Katz is serious about changing things.
And who is he supposed to replace them with? HF posters?

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03-30-2010, 05:06 PM
  #99
badberry
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Originally Posted by SlowFreshOil View Post

Did Tambo extend any of those contracts? Did he sign the players to those said contracts?
.
Again, Khabibulin. One of the most brutal contracts we have. Completely unmovable.

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03-30-2010, 05:08 PM
  #100
badberry
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Originally Posted by SlowFreshOil View Post
And who is he supposed to replace them with? HF posters?
Ah, the old "who would be better, you?" argument. There are plenty of qualified people out there, saying there is no one is a cop out.

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