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Old
04-17-2010, 03:17 AM
  #151
thestonedkoala
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Originally Posted by Jocksta18 View Post
Weren't you just proposing for us to go after Filatov a couple months ago?
Still am if he came cheap enough (Sheppard). I wouldn't mind grabbing Kabanov if he dropped to the 2nd. But not with our 1st. Too much of a risk in the first round, which is why I really don't want Burmistov.

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So "safe" picks like Sheppard are always the way to go? Now that's screwing up a draft.
Sheppard was rushed to the NHL due to us not having a center. Then we got stuck with him not being able to get into the AHL.

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Say "no" to close-mindedness instead.
Too many Russians have gone back home for me to roll the dice on one in the first round. Ovechkin is different. Backstrom isn't from Russia and Semin came before the KHL was something to consider and he likes playing in the NHL because he's been playing here for a while.

If we take a guy like Burm...and he doesn't get along with Richards or he doesn't like playing in Houston and goes back to the KHL, how does this help our team?

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04-17-2010, 10:10 AM
  #152
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I'd like to think we take the best goal-scoring forward available, but I'm also very wary of the Russian/KHL factor. Most of them would rather play in the NHL, but they know that they can fall back on the KHL and get paid or get there if they don't agree with something. We simply cannot afford to mess up this pick.

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04-17-2010, 12:06 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by thespeckledkiwi View Post
Still am if he came cheap enough (Sheppard). I wouldn't mind grabbing Kabanov if he dropped to the 2nd. But not with our 1st. Too much of a risk in the first round, which is why I really don't want Burmistov.



Sheppard was rushed to the NHL due to us not having a center. Then we got stuck with him not being able to get into the AHL.



Too many Russians have gone back home for me to roll the dice on one in the first round. Ovechkin is different. Backstrom isn't from Russia and Semin came before the KHL was something to consider and he likes playing in the NHL because he's been playing here for a while.

If we take a guy like Burm...and he doesn't get along with Richards or he doesn't like playing in Houston and goes back to the KHL, how does this help our team?

Gotcha. I agree with that.

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04-17-2010, 02:21 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Jocksta18 View Post
How do you know Leddy wasn't worth his spot. It hasn't even been one year. Come back to me in five years before you can say that guys drafted after Leddy were more successful; therefore the pick was wrong.

That would apply to taking Skinner 3-5 spots early as well. Sure, it is a little reach but it will take 5 years before anyone can say with certainty that it was a "mess".
To the Wild Leddy was worth #16. To almost all of the published opinions, he wasn't.

Like I've said from day 1 about Leddy, I didn't have a problem drafting him. I think he's going to be better than the player we got for him. But I had a problem with drafting him at #16, and that hasn't changed. When you're drafting #9 (or #12), there's no need to reach on players rated lower. Go for the safer bet. Save your reaches for the later rounds.

As for just Skinner: There's a reason isn't rated as highly. For some reason some Wild fans are wrapped up in his numbers and that he was one of the first names mentioned. Well, times have changed, and the Wild has moved up to #9. There will be better prospects than Skinner available at #9.


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Originally Posted by thespeckledkiwi View Post
Sheppard was rushed to the NHL due to us not having a center. Then we got stuck with him not being able to get into the AHL.

Too many Russians have gone back home for me to roll the dice on one in the first round. Ovechkin is different. Backstrom isn't from Russia and Semin came before the KHL was something to consider and he likes playing in the NHL because he's been playing here for a while.

If we take a guy like Burm...and he doesn't get along with Richards or he doesn't like playing in Houston and goes back to the KHL, how does this help our team?
Saying Sheppard was "rushed" is simply an excuse for player that doesn't have the skills to play in the NHL. That's the bottom line on Sheppard. He was the "safe" pick at #9 that turned out to be an absolute bust because he can't play the game at the highest level. Pouliot/Kopitar is the same situation. That's why you can't make the "safe" pick just for sake of making the safe pick. You draft the best talent, regardless of where a player is from, and hope it works out.


If we draft a guy like Etem or Johansen, and he doesn't have the talent to make an impact in the NHL, how does that help our team? Quit being so narrow-minded. Good NHL mangers will not discount anybody. If they do their homework, why worry about a player bolting. That's their job!

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04-17-2010, 03:09 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
To the Wild Leddy was worth #16. To almost all of the published opinions, he wasn't.

Like I've said from day 1 about Leddy, I didn't have a problem drafting him. I think he's going to be better than the player we got for him. But I had a problem with drafting him at #16, and that hasn't changed. When you're drafting #9 (or #12), there's no need to reach on players rated lower. Go for the safer bet. Save your reaches for the later rounds.

As for just Skinner: There's a reason isn't rated as highly. For some reason some Wild fans are wrapped up in his numbers and that he was one of the first names mentioned. Well, times have changed, and the Wild has moved up to #9. There will be better prospects than Skinner available at #9.

State of Hockey:

Generally, I would agree with you on rankings.

However, and by no means am I an expert or any more qualified than anyone here, I have watched Skinner and most of the top 30 prospects a few times each this year, some more than others. I am basing it on my viewings, not on stats or the rankings.

Does that mean anything to you? Probably not. But, please don't assume that I just look at stats and automatically like a guy because of that.

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04-17-2010, 03:26 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
Saying Sheppard was "rushed" is simply an excuse for player that doesn't have the skills to play in the NHL. That's the bottom line on Sheppard. He was the "safe" pick at #9 that turned out to be an absolute bust because he can't play the game at the highest level. Pouliot/Kopitar is the same situation. That's why you can't make the "safe" pick just for sake of making the safe pick. You draft the best talent, regardless of where a player is from, and hope it works out.
I strongly disagree. There are so many different ways for a hockey player to develop. Some choose USHL then college, some go CHL, some grow early on in their teens and get their strength/core right away, some take a few years in the minors or overseas to develop, etc.

As far as facts are concerned, Sheppard is a bust. But there is no way to confirm he wouldn't have turned out differently had he returned to juniors and played 1-2 years in the AHL. With him, he wasn't mentally mature enough (probably still isn't) to be in the NHL. Everyone in the organization that I've read, as well as other scouts, feel that he has the tools but plays with no confidence. Well, I'd argue a guy coming in with confidence at 21-22 has a much better chance to succeed than a 19 year old.

Also, you mention not taking the "safe" pick. Some would consider some of the 10-15 guys safer than Skinner but don't have the high-end potential? When you watch him, do you think that Skinner has more risk/reward than Etem/Johansen/Bjugstad/Granlund? If not, what are the things you've seen in Skinner's game that you don't like?

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04-17-2010, 04:42 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post

Saying Sheppard was "rushed" is simply an excuse for player that doesn't have the skills to play in the NHL. That's the bottom line on Sheppard. He was the "safe" pick at #9 that turned out to be an absolute bust because he can't play the game at the highest level. Pouliot/Kopitar is the same situation. That's why you can't make the "safe" pick just for sake of making the safe pick. You draft the best talent, regardless of where a player is from, and hope it works out.

If we draft a guy like Etem or Johansen, and he doesn't have the talent to make an impact in the NHL, how does that help our team? Quit being so narrow-minded. Good NHL mangers will not discount anybody. If they do their homework, why worry about a player bolting. That's their job!

Sheppard had monstrous skills. But DR was trying to go the cheap way with a center instead of sign one. Sheppard put up good numbers in the CHL (unlike Gillies) but he wasn't prepared for what was asked of him. It is a massive jump from the QMJHL to the NHL. That's why there is an AHL. Would you call Gillies a bust?

The Russian factor is a huge factor for a lot of teams. If a player doesn't want to take the time to learn and prepare in the NHL, gets shipped to the AHL and decides he can make more money in the KHL than the NHL, well you're out a player. CHL players can't really do that. Or they don't want to because it takes them away. So they work hard. And you got an extra body there in case of injuries.

I remember Filatov. I liked him. Still do, but it makes me weary as everyone was saying he won't bolt, he'll stay. He played in the NHL. He's extremely talented. He'll work hard. And then bam! He leaves.

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04-17-2010, 10:38 PM
  #158
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It's hard to know who's going to be available and who GMCF likes this year. I think that we will have to try and be as positive as possible with who CF picks. I have total faith in him and they know just as much as we do if not more about the players, so I think we'll see him picking well this year. That's what I'm hoping for.

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04-17-2010, 11:14 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by mnwildgophers View Post
It's hard to know who's going to be available and who GMCF likes this year. I think that we will have to try and be as positive as possible with who CF picks. I have total faith in him and they know just as much as we do if not more about the players, so I think we'll see him picking well this year. That's what I'm hoping for.
exactly, keep in mind fletcher has no quirks with countries, look at his past teams, quality players from every country

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04-17-2010, 11:18 PM
  #160
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The Russian factor scares me, but if the right research and development is done, then I think it will be okay. I have all the faith in the world that Fletch knows what he's doing.

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04-17-2010, 11:31 PM
  #161
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The Russian factor scares me, but if the right research and development is done, then I think it will be okay. I have all the faith in the world that Fletch knows what he's doing.
+ infinity, in fletcher we trust

(god i hope im right)

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04-18-2010, 02:50 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Jocksta18 View Post
State of Hockey:

Generally, I would agree with you on rankings.

However, and by no means am I an expert or any more qualified than anyone here, I have watched Skinner and most of the top 30 prospects a few times each this year, some more than others. I am basing it on my viewings, not on stats or the rankings.

Does that mean anything to you? Probably not. But, please don't assume that I just look at stats and automatically like a guy because of that.
Sorry if you took it personally, as I was talking in a general sense. Some fans, not just on HF, seem to be looking more at numbers than actual play. Since you say you've seen Skinner a fair amount, just ignore what I said.

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Originally Posted by Jocksta18 View Post
I strongly disagree. There are so many different ways for a hockey player to develop. Some choose USHL then college, some go CHL, some grow early on in their teens and get their strength/core right away, some take a few years in the minors or overseas to develop, etc.

As far as facts are concerned, Sheppard is a bust. But there is no way to confirm he wouldn't have turned out differently had he returned to juniors and played 1-2 years in the AHL. With him, he wasn't mentally mature enough (probably still isn't) to be in the NHL. Everyone in the organization that I've read, as well as other scouts, feel that he has the tools but plays with no confidence. Well, I'd argue a guy coming in with confidence at 21-22 has a much better chance to succeed than a 19 year old.

Also, you mention not taking the "safe" pick. Some would consider some of the 10-15 guys safer than Skinner but don't have the high-end potential? When you watch him, do you think that Skinner has more risk/reward than Etem/Johansen/Bjugstad/Granlund? If not, what are the things you've seen in Skinner's game that you don't like?
The major issue I have with saying that Sheppard would have turned out differently is that playing in the NHL versus the CHL or AHL doesn't cause a player to lose his God-given ability. Sheppard can't skate, can't shoot, and can't think at an NHL level. That was not caused by playing in the NHL. He never had it to begin with. He only looked to have it in a vastly different league like the Q. Some players, like Pouliot, show obvious amounts of NHL skill but just don't work out. Sheppard has not shown a lick of that skill level.

When I look at the rankings of the NHL scouts, I question whether Skinner actually has top potential. 10 teams didn't have him in the top-10, yet at least one had Etem there. Bjugstad as well. My guess is that goes back to his size and less-then-excellent skating. If the word "skating" is brought up with a player under 6 feet tall, it bothers me. I like that he can score from anywhere, but again, he's in the OHL, not the pros. Will his scoring touch translate is the question. For me skating is #1, #2, and #3 in importance. I have not been enamored with Skinner in that respect.

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Originally Posted by thespeckledkiwi View Post
Sheppard had monstrous skills. But DR was trying to go the cheap way with a center instead of sign one. Sheppard put up good numbers in the CHL (unlike Gillies) but he wasn't prepared for what was asked of him. It is a massive jump from the QMJHL to the NHL. That's why there is an AHL. Would you call Gillies a bust?

The Russian factor is a huge factor for a lot of teams. If a player doesn't want to take the time to learn and prepare in the NHL, gets shipped to the AHL and decides he can make more money in the KHL than the NHL, well you're out a player. CHL players can't really do that. Or they don't want to because it takes them away. So they work hard. And you got an extra body there in case of injuries.
"Monstrous skills" is making me chuckle. Shep had "monstrous skills" for the Q, not the NHL. I don't know why you're bringing up Gillies, but in his limited time I've seen more NHL-potential in him that Sheppard. Gillies can actually skate and skate very well. He likely has a long NHL future ahead.

Again, if a player doesn't make it because of the lack of talent, what's the difference? Nothing. Both players were misses. A Russian like Burmistrov is already playing in North America, so you have to expect scouts to do their homework and have him on their board if they think he's not a significant risk to bolt. You can't automatically discount anybody unless there's a genuine reason.

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04-18-2010, 11:39 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
Sorry if you took it personally, as I was talking in a general sense. Some fans, not just on HF, seem to be looking more at numbers than actual play. Since you say you've seen Skinner a fair amount, just ignore what I said.


The major issue I have with saying that Sheppard would have turned out differently is that playing in the NHL versus the CHL or AHL doesn't cause a player to lose his God-given ability. Sheppard can't skate, can't shoot, and can't think at an NHL level. That was not caused by playing in the NHL. He never had it to begin with. He only looked to have it in a vastly different league like the Q. Some players, like Pouliot, show obvious amounts of NHL skill but just don't work out. Sheppard has not shown a lick of that skill level.

When I look at the rankings of the NHL scouts, I question whether Skinner actually has top potential. 10 teams didn't have him in the top-10, yet at least one had Etem there. Bjugstad as well. My guess is that goes back to his size and less-then-excellent skating. If the word "skating" is brought up with a player under 6 feet tall, it bothers me. I like that he can score from anywhere, but again, he's in the OHL, not the pros. Will his scoring touch translate is the question. For me skating is #1, #2, and #3 in importance. I have not been enamored with Skinner in that respect.


"Monstrous skills" is making me chuckle. Shep had "monstrous skills" for the Q, not the NHL. I don't know why you're bringing up Gillies, but in his limited time I've seen more NHL-potential in him that Sheppard. Gillies can actually skate and skate very well. He likely has a long NHL future ahead.

Again, if a player doesn't make it because of the lack of talent, what's the difference? Nothing. Both players were misses. A Russian like Burmistrov is already playing in North America, so you have to expect scouts to do their homework and have him on their board if they think he's not a significant risk to bolt. You can't automatically discount anybody unless there's a genuine reason.
Good stuff, man. I respect your opinion and, like I said, I would find myself agreeing with you 95% on your view of rankings/drafting etc. I just happen to think very highly of Skinner and feel that he has better skills than some of the guys mentioned around our spot...just happens to be a little small. But he is 17 and is stocky so I'm not worried about that.

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04-18-2010, 11:04 PM
  #164
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It's so hard to predict who's going to pick what in front of us. Like who's going to be available, you can pretty much take off 6 of the players, but who knows? One may fall to us.

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04-19-2010, 02:18 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
"Monstrous skills" is making me chuckle. Shep had "monstrous skills" for the Q, not the NHL. I don't know why you're bringing up Gillies, but in his limited time I've seen more NHL-potential in him that Sheppard. Gillies can actually skate and skate very well. He likely has a long NHL future ahead.

Again, if a player doesn't make it because of the lack of talent, what's the difference? Nothing. Both players were misses. A Russian like Burmistrov is already playing in North America, so you have to expect scouts to do their homework and have him on their board if they think he's not a significant risk to bolt. You can't automatically discount anybody unless there's a genuine reason.
Bouchard had a ton of skill in the QMJHL. There is a major difference between the NHL and the QMJHL. And Sheppard should have been in the AHL as a go between the two to learn and adapt. He had a lot of skill and a lot of potential as a player.

Skating isn't the only thing needed in the NHL. Gillies has 0 offensive potential. We should really think about shuffling Gillies back to defense if we are going to use him as an defensive forward.

Yes you can. Filatov played here in North America, hell he played a few years and then left. Radulov did the same thing. Both came out of the CHL. Zherdev. Voloshenko. Misharin. Kalus.

The Russian factor is real and it's something to consider when picking a player, no matter how good they are. Unless they are a Malkin or a Ovechkin that possesses elite skills that you can build your franchise around, then I would shy away from them.

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04-19-2010, 12:28 PM
  #166
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One shoe doesn't fit everybody
I know, but compared to some of the people who are available in that article it's not a pick which entirely matches up. There are three or four "safer" picks available, which was essentially the author's intention because of Minnesota's past few first-rounders underachieving. There's nothing wrong with taking a player that you find to be the BPA, but the author should at least acknowledge the fact that taking a Russian is a gamble.

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04-19-2010, 10:25 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by thespeckledkiwi View Post
Yes you can. Filatov played here in North America, hell he played a few years and then left. Radulov did the same thing. Both came out of the CHL. Zherdev. Voloshenko. Misharin. Kalus.

The Russian factor is real and it's something to consider when picking a player, no matter how good they are. Unless they are a Malkin or a Ovechkin that possesses elite skills that you can build your franchise around, then I would shy away from them.
Filatov never played in the CHL. Sudbury owned his rights, but since he was drafted out of Russia, he was AHL-eligible.

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04-20-2010, 12:44 AM
  #168
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Sorry my mind has been foggy lately.

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05-05-2010, 12:17 PM
  #169
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Latest mock from ESPN.

You have to have an insider subscription to see the whole thing, but figured it would be interesting to post this.

Quote:
9. Minnesota Wild

Jeff Skinner, C/W, Kitchener (Ontario)

I didn't have him on earlier lists -- but 50 goals in a regular season and 20 more in the playoffs convinced me.

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05-05-2010, 12:18 PM
  #170
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So we've gotten one for Burmistrov and one for Skinner, I wonder if we take him there, I'd think we'd drop down at that point if Nino was gone (in which he was taken 6 overall in this mock)

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05-06-2010, 06:39 PM
  #171
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More on Skinner from a Rangers fan.

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Based on pure talent Id put Skinner up there with anybody in the draft and yes the playoffs were a little bit of a coming out party for him but the talent was always there. I know people hate the word clutch but there is no more clutch player I have ever seen in the OHL than Jeff Skinner

Part of his stock rising though is he is also killing penalties now and very effectively. A guy who doesnt kill penalties (which was him for a while) will see your stock plummet.

The downside as it is with a lot of kids is size and skating which is why he likely wont go number 9 but more likely 15-20 but he is number 9 talent easily.

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05-09-2010, 09:08 PM
  #172
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A couple of things:


- The Wild had Leddy higher than #16...even higher than #12. Its just that they knew he'd be available at 16, so they traded down (shrewdly) and ended up with Matt Hackett.
- I haven't seen Skinner play, but remember that there are more positions than just forward. What if we took Jack Campbell at #9, even with Hackett, Kuemper, and Khudobin in the system? Or if we took Forbort/Merrill, with Cuma, Scandella, Prosser et al?
- You guys want mock drafts? I got yo mock drafts right hea...

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05-09-2010, 09:50 PM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceUNO View Post
A couple of things:


- The Wild had Leddy higher than #16...even higher than #12. Its just that they knew he'd be available at 16, so they traded down (shrewdly) and ended up with Matt Hackett.
- I haven't seen Skinner play, but remember that there are more positions than just forward. What if we took Jack Campbell at #9, even with Hackett, Kuemper, and Khudobin in the system? Or if we took Forbort/Merrill, with Cuma, Scandella, Prosser et al?
- You guys want mock drafts? I got yo mock drafts right hea...
This team is in dire need of offensive talent. I would be disappointed with anything else at #9.

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05-09-2010, 11:49 PM
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceUNO View Post
A couple of things:


- The Wild had Leddy higher than #16...even higher than #12. Its just that they knew he'd be available at 16, so they traded down (shrewdly) and ended up with Matt Hackett.
- I haven't seen Skinner play, but remember that there are more positions than just forward. What if we took Jack Campbell at #9, even with Hackett, Kuemper, and Khudobin in the system? Or if we took Forbort/Merrill, with Cuma, Scandella, Prosser et al?
- You guys want mock drafts? I got yo mock drafts right hea...
If we take Campbell at 9, I will riot. Seriously, can anyone think of a justification for that one? As for Forbort and Merril, it wouldn't be the end of the world (there's at least a rationale for both those players) but I might be disappointed depending on who was left on the board.

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05-10-2010, 05:18 PM
  #175
firstroundbust
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but its BPA guys, simple as that. I know we need help up front, but you can't go take a "lesser player" because he fills a need.

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