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If Gainey did not sign any UFA's this summer

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Old
04-03-2010, 03:04 PM
  #26
BaseballCoach
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Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
So, our top 6 is worth 25+M$, is mostly signed to long-term contracts, with a player possibly leaving or getting a good raise, we sit 26th in goal-scoring per game and have often not been dangerous all game save for a few moments, yet we're all good?

Come on man. Injuries are a good excuse for a part of the year, but the fact is, we look at our performances recently (with a healthy squad), and if it's not for goalies bailing out the team, we're probably trying to fight our way into a playoff spot.

The fact is, goaltending has been the ONLY thing that made us a playoff squad. I can't think of any well-built teams that have only goaltending as a strong point.
No one said "we're all good"! What I said was that if things can change so much from one half-season to another, there is no way to reliably predict the next five years. And this applies not only to the Habs, by the way. Look at Carolina since mid-January, for instance. Or Pittsburgh since the Olympic break.

As for our top two line forwards, OF COURSE they are not very dangerous when they are in the infirmary. However, when they are actually ON THE ICE, they are EASILY in the top half of the league for goals per game. If they can keep that pace going next year and stay more injury-free, the season could well turn out differently.

Just look at the Habs in 2007-2008 with few injuries versus last year. Or the Bruins, who went from 8th to Conference champs and back to bubble team within three years.

I'm not saying you could not turn out to be right. You could. But you could just as easily be wrong. In my opinion, due to the relative youth of our core, probably a bit more likely wrong. But I admit this is crystal-balling and is inherently speculative. One trade, one major injury, one "gem found", one coaching change, all of these things can throw everyone's predictions off, for any team you can think of.

I'm prepared to see what Pierre Gauthier can do with his assets and hopefully I'll enjoy the ride as a fan.


Last edited by BaseballCoach: 04-03-2010 at 03:38 PM.
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Old
04-03-2010, 03:18 PM
  #27
Em Ancien
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
No one said "we're all good"! What I said was that if things can change so much from one half-season to another, there is no way to reliably predict the next five years. And this applies not only to the Habs, by the way. Look at Carolina since mid-January, for instance. Or Pittsburgh since the Olympic break.

As for our top two line forwards, OF COURSE they are not very dangerous when they are in the infirmary or in the press box. However, when they are actually ON THE ICE, they are EASILY in the top half of the league for goals per game. If they can keep that pace going next year and stay more injury-free, the season could well turn out differently.

Just look at the Habs in 2007-2008 with few injuries versus last year. Or the Bruins, who went from 8th to Conference champs and back to bubble team within three years.

I'm not saying you could not turn out to be right. You could. But you could just as easily be wrong. In my opinion, due to the relative youth of our core, probably a bit more likely wrong. But I admit this is crystal-balling and is inherently speculative. One trade, one major injury, one "gem found", one coaching change, all of these things can throw everyone's predictions off, for any team you can think of.

I'm prepared to see what Pierre Gauthier can do with his assets and hopefully I'll enjoy the ride as a fan.
Of course it could. But you look at how the top 6 has played since Cammalleri has been back, it's been awful. They show up for a few scoring opportunities per game and that's it.

This team lacks bite. It takes it up the ***. Either the coach needs to be changed or the offensive players have to be changed. I'm all for giving them another year, but anything close to this year, and one of them has to change. This is unacceptable. A team that is close to the cap and finds ways to not have 1 shot in 15 minutes is not a good team. It's not even a bad team. It's a disaster.

As for 07-08 and the 08-09 Bruins, I guess a bunch of people having career years had more to do with it than injuries. The major downfall for the Bruins has been the loss of Kessel, the major regression of Wideman, the sophomore slump of Wheeler, the return to 07-08 for Ryder, etc. There's much more to it than injuries.

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Old
04-03-2010, 03:35 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
Of course it could. But you look at how the top 6 has played since Cammalleri has been back, it's been awful. They show up for a few scoring opportunities per game and that's it.

This team lacks bite. It takes it up the ***. Either the coach needs to be changed or the offensive players have to be changed. I'm all for giving them another year, but anything close to this year, and one of them has to change. This is unacceptable. A team that is close to the cap and finds ways to not have 1 shot in 15 minutes is not a good team. It's not even a bad team. It's a disaster.

As for 07-08 and the 08-09 Bruins, I guess a bunch of people having career years had more to do with it than injuries. The major downfall for the Bruins has been the loss of Kessel, the major regression of Wideman, the sophomore slump of Wheeler, the return to 07-08 for Ryder, etc. There's much more to it than injuries.
Cammalleri is CLEARLY not 100% yet. He doesn't have the jump back that he needs for his game to be effective.

However, you exaggerate greatly with your conclusion about not having a shot in 15 minutes. These things happen to EVERY TEAM some times over 82 games. To just say it can't EVER happen is saying that every team in the league should be considered a disaster. That cheapens the word 'disaster' a touch, no?

Regarding the Bruins, my wording wasn't clear, but I agree that it's not just injuries that make for variability of results from one year to another or even from one half-year to another. But that just STRENGTHENS my argument against making blanket statements about what will or will not occur for the next FIVE years!

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04-03-2010, 03:45 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Cammalleri is CLEARLY not 100% yet. He doesn't have the jump back that he needs for his game to be effective.

However, you exaggerate greatly with your conclusion about not having a shot in 15 minutes. These things happen to EVERY TEAM some times over 82 games. To just say it can't EVER happen is saying that every team in the league should be considered a disaster. That cheapens the word 'disaster' a touch, no?
Oh it can happen.

But we're 26th in goal-scoring in the league and 27th in shots for. Our win% when trailing after the first period is right there with teams like the Leafs, the Canes, the Bolts, the Islanders. Y'know, bad teams. It's also there with teams in our situation like the Bruins and Flames who can't score to save their lives.

We're also 25th in winning % when leading after the 1st.

Since Cammalleri's return, we've averaged 2 goals per game. That's with our regular top 6 in the lineup.

There's either a problem with the coaching or the forwards. It's one or the other. If next year they find a way to play well throughout the year, maybe it was indeed just injuries. But if by deadline next year we're still similar to this year, there needs to be some changes.

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Old
04-03-2010, 04:18 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
I was thinking of a team like Edmonton this morning, a team that was expected of more than they acheived and will now draft Taylor Hall and have the best chance of doing so.

So, if Gainey did not do anything this past summer:

Higgins - Plekanec - Kostitsyn
Latendresse - Lapierre - Kostitsyn
Pacioretty - Metropolit - Glumac
Laraque - Maxwell - Neilson

Markov - O'Byrne
Hamrlik - Gorges
Subban - Weber

Price
Halak


Where would we have ended up?

Just imagine if Gainey had pulled this off and we were 30th overall and garaunteed to finish with the least amount of points in the league, do you think the city would of had a riot?
We're dead last in the league in 5 on 5 scoring. And we're the 5th worst in goals/game overall. We live and die with our goaltending and we can't score unless we're on the PP.

How much of that is due to injuries? It's a factor but we've been inconsistent with and without a full lineup. If our goalies weren't putting in Vezina type performances we'd be competing for last place. That's just a fact.

Our core is made up mostly of 30 year olds who are as good as they'll ever be. We have some youth coming up, Subban looks good the goalies obviously look good but outside of that there's nothing really to get excited about. Maybe Poulliot can finally live up to his potential as he's looked good.

I still firmly believe that signing those guys did nothing but ensure mediocrity for us for the forseeable future and the club has given me no reason to change my mind on this. In fact, I thought we'd be better than we've been. If the Eastern Conference hadn't suddenly collapsed the way it has we'd be outside the playoffs this year.

Maybe things will change next year but I really don't expect much out of the team as it stands. Anything they do now is a bonus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
We already re-built, did you miss the 5 yr plan to build a bubble team?
Nice.

We actually did a half hearted rebuild and it looked like it was showing some promise. Unfortunately though it didn't work out because we didn't draft high enough.

It's great to build with younger players but if you don't have younger players with elite talent then you're just building your team with young mediocre players. Building with mediocre talent produces mediocre results and that's what we've had for a long, long time now...

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Old
04-03-2010, 04:25 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
Oh it can happen.

But we're 26th in goal-scoring in the league and 27th in shots for. Our win% when trailing after the first period is right there with teams like the Leafs, the Canes, the Bolts, the Islanders. Y'know, bad teams. It's also there with teams in our situation like the Bruins and Flames who can't score to save their lives.

We're also 25th in winning % when leading after the 1st.

Since Cammalleri's return, we've averaged 2 goals per game. That's with our regular top 6 in the lineup.

There's either a problem with the coaching or the forwards. It's one or the other. If next year they find a way to play well throughout the year, maybe it was indeed just injuries. But if by deadline next year we're still similar to this year, there needs to be some changes.
Again, you ignore the obvious: Cammalleri is not 100% yet. Hopefully he gets back to form quickly or our goalscoring will indeed be definitely affected.

And while I get your point, it seems like you are over-reaching in some of your arguments. We are, after all, 6th in the Conference. So if we are crappy when trailing after one period, and crappy when leading after one period, we must be super-GOOD when TIED after one period! Honestly, I don't think you need to go cherry-picking in this particular garden.

Only time will tell if the Habs top two line forwards can keep this year's goal scoring pace while reducing injury time. If they do, the overall team results could be quite different (i.e. better) next year.

Indeed, the last 41 games, half a season, the team results have been interesting - 22-14-8 for 49 points in 41 games, which translates to a 98 point season. The first 37 games, on the other hand, we were 16-18-3. So as much as we are sometimes not satisfied unless:
a) we win every game, and
b) do so without our goaltender being a main reason,
we ARE making significant progress, enough that I am NOT prepared to write off the next five years the way the other fellow did.

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Old
04-03-2010, 05:52 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
That means we would of got a top 5 to 7 pick for having a garbage season when now we are going to the playoffs and are probably going to get the 15th to 20th overall pick.

Kyle Chipchura anyone? - LOL
Kyle chipchura was centering Perry-Ryan last night in the 3rd period for the ducks... in a game vs the Canucks that went to overtime.

Chipchura has been good for the Ducks, and I bet next year he firmly takes hold of a 3rd line centre and begins to evolve into the player we drafted him to be... unfortunately not for us, but hey, at least gainey got us a 4th round pick for him

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Originally Posted by Next Best Thing View Post
A lineup like that would never happen in MTL.

It was either we re-signed our old core or replace it with a younger one.
thanks fish, saved me the trouble of posting that.

It amazes me that people try to defend some of the moves Gainey made by arguing that Montreal could never go into a season with a team looking destined to miss the playoffs... pure bs.

Under Gillette, the team had the green light to do what it needed to do to ice a winning product, but management also had full control/authority to build the team as he saw fit. Unfortunately the management team failed to deliver, that's about it. It has nothing to do with not being able to make smart long-term decisions because of fan pressure or "playing in montreal"...

Gainey was able to spend to the cap every year, but spent poorly and mishandled assets in many cases, leading to the desperation act of last summer...

and now we have a healthy 57M$ lineup that can only manage 1 goal against a team with no goalie that is struggling worse than anyone in the league... I doubt the roster imagined by the OP would have done much worse than what we saw last night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
I was thinking of a team like Edmonton this morning, a team that was expected of more than they acheived and will now draft Taylor Hall and have the best chance of doing so.

So, if Gainey did not do anything this past summer:

Higgins - Plekanec - Kostitsyn
Latendresse - Lapierre - Kostitsyn
Pacioretty - Metropolit - Glumac
Laraque - Maxwell - Neilson

Markov - O'Byrne
Hamrlik - Gorges
Subban - Weber

Price
Halak


Where would we have ended up?

Just imagine if Gainey had pulled this off and we were 30th overall and garaunteed to finish with the least amount of points in the league, do you think the city would of had a riot?
it's unrealistic to think that he would have done nothing in the offseason. It's pretty clear that if the Gomez trade doesn't happen, Koivu likely gets re-signed, same for Gionta/Kovalev.

but it's pretty clear, especially now that we playing with a healthy lineup and still getting mediocre performance/results, that sticking with the devil we knew would have been a smarter decision than committing so much long-term money to devil(s) we didn't.

be interesting to see how Gauthier deals with the mess he helped create... will he be bold enough to acknowledge the mistakes and set about to fix them, or will he continue to waste picks/prospects searching for band-aid solutions for a mediocre roster with far too many holes???

time will tell.

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Old
04-03-2010, 06:12 PM
  #33
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Take Kovalev instead of Gomez and Spacek.

Sign a less expensive center, sign a younger D.

Suddenly we're in 4th place and we have cap space, and our powerplay isn't a question mark.

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04-03-2010, 06:55 PM
  #34
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What was always so grating was we had an opportunity to possess a fairly dangerous roster whilst resigning a few of our UFAs and inking new players. The following was entirely feasible...

Cammalleri - Plekanec - Gionta
Tanguay - Koivu - Kovalev
Kostitsyn - Metropolit - Kostitsyn
<insert filler>

Markov - Spacek
Hamrlik - O'Byrne
Subban - Gorges

Halak
Price

Even in the event we did not sign Tanguay, allowing space for A. Kostitsyn on the top six, we could have moved Latendresse in similar fashion and acquired Pouilet, were it necessary to replace Kostitsyn as has been evident upon this present juncture. Yes one could argue our previous roster is currently struggling with their respective teams however with the exception of Tampa Bay, Anaheim and Ottawa were average at best initially. Ottawa simply recovered in remarkably, furthermore when the aforementioned second line was finally established last season, they were unbelievably explosive in production; thirteen points in three games if I recall.

Worse case scenario, those contracts would have all concluded within two to three seasons, some perhaps even the following year, thus we would not be locked against the cap and in hardly a superior position. In actuality we could have ignored Spacek and attempted to sign another defenseman.

Hindsight for you...

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Old
04-03-2010, 08:02 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Bourne View Post
What was always so grating was we had an opportunity to possess a fairly dangerous roster whilst resigning a few of our UFAs and inking new players. The following was entirely feasible...

Cammalleri - Plekanec - Gionta
Tanguay - Koivu - Kovalev
Kostitsyn - Metropolit - Kostitsyn
<insert filler>

Markov - Spacek
Hamrlik - O'Byrne
Subban - Gorges

Halak
Price

Even in the event we did not sign Tanguay, allowing space for A. Kostitsyn on the top six, we could have moved Latendresse in similar fashion and acquired Pouilet, were it necessary to replace Kostitsyn as has been evident upon this present juncture. Yes one could argue our previous roster is currently struggling with their respective teams however with the exception of Tampa Bay, Anaheim and Ottawa were average at best initially. Ottawa simply recovered in remarkably, furthermore when the aforementioned second line was finally established last season, they were unbelievably explosive in production; thirteen points in three games if I recall.

Worse case scenario, those contracts would have all concluded within two to three seasons, some perhaps even the following year, thus we would not be locked against the cap and in hardly a superior position. In actuality we could have ignored Spacek and attempted to sign another defenseman.

Hindsight for you...
That roster is worse than what we have now.

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04-03-2010, 08:11 PM
  #36
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That roster is worse than what we have now.
Yes because Andrei Kostitsyn is lighting it up on a nightly basis and Gill is most definitely worth roughly three million.

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Old
04-03-2010, 08:46 PM
  #37
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That roster is worse than what we have now.

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Old
04-04-2010, 11:32 AM
  #38
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God I'm glad Higgins isnt getting top 6 minutes for us anymore.

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Old
04-04-2010, 03:51 PM
  #39
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Our top 6 is not as bad as people says. You got to consider that from all those player they where just 2 of them who where there last year and that they all needed to learn a new system. As for stats comparison I'll compare our top 6 to the one of buffalo.

Habs top 6: Scored 102 goals in 291 games played. (.351)
Sabres top 6: Scored 120 goals in 442 games played. (.271)

With those stats Habs top 6 are more better than the Sabres (offensively). They cost a bit more but still it's pretty good, enough to be a contender. Our real problem is our D and I am glad to see the direction wanting to work on O'byrne, the guy as the size and he is gettin better and better and he will come cheap till he hit UFA. Add that to Subban who will help the O + Gorges who doesn't cost much and plays is role perectly and we could have a very good and young D as next year. Add to that Halak and Price as a Duo and for me you have a very good team.

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