HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Atlanta on the move in 2011?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-07-2010, 11:04 AM
  #51
Alan Jackson
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Langley, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,413
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaWhaler View Post
But, people do forget that the Thrashers have been a disaster from the start of the franchise. It's not like they've been around for a long time and has just now losing fans because of a crappy product.

Atlanta's population has doubled in the last 20 years and continues to grow. The goal of bringing a new NHL franchise here, and any city for that matter, is to capture new fans with a good product on the ice, and continue to grow the interest. Nobody expects to be competitive the first few years, but here we are 10 years into this with zero playoff wins, feuding ownership, and the same GM in place. Again, I argue that the same problems would be had in 90% of the North American markets if a new team started in their cities.
I don't disagree with any of this. I don't know that we can truly judge Atlanta as a market until the fans have a decent team to support and a stable ownership group.

My guess is that support for hockey in Atlanta would still be a tad luke warm, but a winning team would go a long way.

At some point, though, it all sounds like a bunch of excuses. There are all sorts of reasons why hockey is struggling some (all?) of the newer markets (poor management, poor product, struggling economy, arena location, etc.). At some point, I think we need to address the elephant in the room. The fact that getting people to watch hockey is more of a struggle in some markets than in others is an issue that at least needs to be acknowledged.

Alan Jackson is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 11:11 AM
  #52
Hamilton Tigers
Registered User
 
Hamilton Tigers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,294
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Jackson View Post
At some point, I think we need to address the elephant in the room. The fact that getting people to watch hockey is more of a struggle in some markets than in others is an issue that at least needs to be acknowledged.
I was surprised to read about Phoenix's best ever TV numbers being so paltry. After 14 years of existence. The attendance numbers have been better at times, but for the best ever TV numbers to be so low is surprising. TV viewing is free for the most part.

Does anyone know how those TV numbers comapre with Atlanta's

The TV numbers from the TV ratings and TV revnue thread has the following numbers from mid season, January 2.

Thrashers: 0.34
Coyotes: 0.56

The Coyotes recent best ever numbers were. 1.34 translating to 24,000 TVs

How does that 0.34 translate in actual TV numbers in Atlanta for mid season?


Last edited by Hamilton Tigers: 04-07-2010 at 12:36 PM.
Hamilton Tigers is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 12:03 PM
  #53
Marv4Life
Worth billions...
 
Marv4Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: SEPA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LetNoneIn View Post
As I've said here many, many times, the downtown location is a major drawback for weeknight attendance. That's not going to change. Atlanta is in many ways similar to Los Angeles, a city with a lot of sprawl and bad traffic. And Los Angeles can't even hold on to an NFL team.
So by that logic the Kings pre 2010 would draw the same as them. And what's wrong with MARTA? Is it still smarta?

Marv4Life is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 12:18 PM
  #54
hockey momma
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 497
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeyhopeful View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if Kovalchuck Knew or had a very strong feeling Atlanta was on the move. He probably wanted some kind of guarantee the team was staying. I think he liked it there, but if the team moved he probably didn't want to take the risk of having to play in a city he didn't like.
That was exactly my thought when Kovy left. Apparently him and his wife really liked it there and were having a new house built.

hockey momma is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 12:32 PM
  #55
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 33,171
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Jackson View Post
At some point, though, it all sounds like a bunch of excuses. There are all sorts of reasons why hockey is struggling some (all?) of the newer markets (poor management, poor product, struggling economy, arena location, etc.). At some point, I think we need to address the elephant in the room. The fact that getting people to watch hockey is more of a struggle in some markets than in others is an issue that at least needs to be acknowledged.
From what I have seen, everyone is willing to acknowledge that some markets are more of an uphill battle than others.

What irks me is when people jump to the conclusion that the team needs to be relocated immediately because the market is a failure. I have yet to see that case made effectively for any NHL team in any location.

tarheelhockey is online now  
Old
04-07-2010, 12:44 PM
  #56
Hamilton Tigers
Registered User
 
Hamilton Tigers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,294
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
The TV numbers from the TV ratings and TV revnue thread has the following numbers from mid season, January 2.

Thrashers: 0.34
Coyotes: 0.56

The Coyotes recent best ever numbers were. 1.34 translating to 24,000 TVs

How does that 0.34 translate in actual TV numbers in Atlanta for mid season?
Found it I think http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/markettr..._hh_by_dma.asp

Atlanta's TV market of 2.387,000 TV households with a market share of 0.34 tranlsates to 8,100. Is that right?

Hamilton Tigers is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 02:31 PM
  #57
GetPucksDeep
Registered User
 
GetPucksDeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: the other Duluth
Country: United States
Posts: 3,412
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
Found it I think http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/markettr..._hh_by_dma.asp

Atlanta's TV market of 2.387,000 TV households with a market share of 0.34 tranlsates to 8,100. Is that right?
sounds too high.


seriously

GetPucksDeep is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 03:39 PM
  #58
HockeyGuy1985*
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,501
vCash: 500
Atlanta is 3rd in the US in Fortune 500 companies. Money is not an issue.

Put a good team on the ice, theyll be fine.

Can you honestly expect much from one playoff series? (a sweep)

HockeyGuy1985* is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 03:50 PM
  #59
digger18
Registered User
 
digger18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Williams Lake B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas1235 View Post
Why on earth would anybody move a team that is in a 4 million plus metropolis, in a new building and tons of sponsorship?

Plus the Thrashers have abissmal tv ratings and not alot of fans, yet they only lose maybe 5-10 million a season.
I think you may have answered your own question.

There may be 4 million people in Atlanta but if only 20,000 of them care about hockey your best to cut your losses and get out. You can stay there and lose 10 million a year, or move somewhere you will actually make money.

The terrible thing about this situation is the NHL doesn't seem to learn from past mistakes. Apparently this league is dumb enough to jump out of an airplane without a parachute for a second time.

digger18 is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 03:53 PM
  #60
digger18
Registered User
 
digger18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Williams Lake B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyGuy1985 View Post
Atlanta is 3rd in the US in Fortune 500 companies. Money is not an issue.

Put a good team on the ice, theyll be fine.

Can you honestly expect much from one playoff series? (a sweep)
Winning consistently hasn't helped the Braves with attendance. The games that I've watched on TBS show Turner field as being more than half empty most of the time.

digger18 is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 03:58 PM
  #61
btn
Gone Hollywood
 
btn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: ATL
Country: United States
Posts: 15,674
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by digger18 View Post
Winning consistently hasn't helped the Braves with attendance. The games that I've watched on TBS show Turner field as being more than half empty most of the time.
Take a look at the Braves attendance over the last 10 years, compared to the rest of the league. They do just fine, in fact more than fine, and look to be off to a fine start this season in attendance as well.

The only reason people take shots at the Braves is because they did not sellout some playoff games. Most of that was due to them having to play weekday afternoon games since the Braves did not merit the prime time TV ratings.


Last edited by btn: 04-07-2010 at 04:04 PM.
btn is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 04:35 PM
  #62
NYR Hockey Fan
 
NYR Hockey Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Atlanta
Country: United States
Posts: 130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by btn View Post
Take a look at the Braves attendance over the last 10 years, compared to the rest of the league. They do just fine, in fact more than fine, and look to be off to a fine start this season in attendance as well.

The only reason people take shots at the Braves is because they did not sellout some playoff games. Most of that was due to them having to play weekday afternoon games since the Braves did not merit the prime time TV ratings.
Not really. Even the last 2-3 years of their playoff run they had a hard time selling out the NLDS games.

NYR Hockey Fan is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 04:50 PM
  #63
Hamilton Tigers
Registered User
 
Hamilton Tigers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,294
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LetNoneIn View Post
sounds too high.


seriously
Nope. 8,000 it is.



Atlanta Thrashers SportSouth (22) 0.34, 8,000

http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/64539

So SportSouth broadcast 22 Thrashers games. My question is how many out of the 2.387,000 TV households in the Atlanta TV market does SporstSouth reach?

Hamilton Tigers is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 04:53 PM
  #64
Kadriisboss
 
Kadriisboss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12
vCash: 500
It's just depressing seeing a team in position to sneak into the playoffs with so many empty seats.

Kadriisboss is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 06:14 PM
  #65
Harpoon Pete
 
Harpoon Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Alabama
Country: United States
Posts: 108
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Hockey Fan View Post
I disagree. Hockey is October - April/May? That means that in Atlanta, it competes with SEC and ACC Football and Basketball, the Hawks, the Falcons and NASCAR which is HUGE in Georgia.
This is spot on. Also, the traffic situation is bad enough to dissuade fans from travelling to a game.

I would consider going to a game in ATL, if there was not a 50% chance of being stuck in gridlock.

Harpoon Pete is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 06:29 PM
  #66
BadHammy*
MSL For Hart!
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Right Behind Me!
Posts: 10,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadriisboss View Post
It's just depressing seeing a team in position to sneak into the playoffs with so many empty seats.
Is Atlanta still technically in it??

BadHammy* is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 06:33 PM
  #67
kdb209
Global Moderator
 
kdb209's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,509
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by donGjohnson View Post
Is Atlanta still technically in it??
Nope.

If they win their last two and the Bruins lose their last three, they end up with identical 36-33-13 85pts records - but the Bruins win the tie breaker with a 4-0 season series against the Thrashers.

kdb209 is online now  
Old
04-07-2010, 07:03 PM
  #68
xicethug13x
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ADDISON
Country: United States
Posts: 696
vCash: 500
atlanto should defintly be relocated right away...hockey just does not work there...theyve had talented teams that are fun to watch....theyve had 1 of the top players in the game...at times theyve had multiple very high end players.....and it does not matter nobody shows up...people dont care about hockey there

once in a while i catch a atlanta game on tv and i swear the place has less than 5k people in teh stands...its riduclous....if i was lucky enough to be an nhl player that is the last place in teh league i would wanna play....i dont blame kovi for demanding a max contract for 10 years from them ....while he will most likely ask another team for something mor ereasonable like 8.5 for 6 years...he didnt wanna be stuck there his whole career....no one would wanna be stuck there for there career

i would move all the franchises that have had 5-10 years to build a fan base and havent been able to move them out of rteh south to citys that care and will support them..its emabarasing when you see a rink empty on tv its bad for the game...and it needs to be changed

xicethug13x is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 07:17 PM
  #69
MHX
Hockey Makes Us...
 
MHX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,016
vCash: 500
I just don't understand why Atlanta still has a team? Watching home games is just plain sad. All you see are empty seats.

How much money do teams need to lose before they are officially considered a failure? Some teams have lost a lot less money in a lot less time and those markets were abandoned quickly. I'm all for second chances but this is ridiculous.

Does the NBA, NFL or MLB keep teams in markets that long or are they smart enough to count their losses and pack their bags?

MHX is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 07:17 PM
  #70
MHX
Hockey Makes Us...
 
MHX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Hockey Fan View Post
I live in Atlanta and go to Thrashers games ... unfortunately not many others do.

The only time friends or co-workers of mine go to the games is when they get free or discounted tickets. Trust me, no one in this city cares or will notice if they move.
This!

MHX is offline  
Old
04-07-2010, 08:10 PM
  #71
copernicanrevolution
Registered User
 
copernicanrevolution's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 132
vCash: 500
Atlanta has a giant potential fanbase. They haven't converted on that potential because they've never had a good team, have not won a playoff game ever, and have remarkably bad marketing. In a city that is not a traditional hockey city (which Atlanta certainly isn't) fans won't appear out of thin air. They will appear because they will for some reason be drawn to a hockey game or two, and get hooked from there. If they've never been to that first hockey game or had someone try to infect them with the hockey fever, then of course they won't be paying for tickets.

I'd like to share a couple anecdotes. I realize this isn't data, but experiencing this has really given me a new outlook on the potential for the franchise.

The scene: About 5 months ago copernicanrevolution and a bunch of his coworkers are having some beer at the bar that is connected to the arena (!!):

Me: One of these days you guys are going to have come with me to a Thrashers game.

Coworker 1: Thrashers game???

Me: You know..ice hockey...

Coworker 2: Oh, Atlanta has a team?

Me: Yeah

Coworker 2: They probably suck, right?

Me: Well, usually. But this year we have a lot of young talent and might make the playoffs, it is really exciting!

Coworker 1: Wait..you mean they are a NHL team??

Me: Yeah!

Coworker 1: Wow, I have never heard of them!

Coworker 2: Yeah, I think I heard something about them once, but that's it.

/End scene.

What I'm trying to illustrate here is just how bad the Atlanta Thrashers marketing is. There is almost none. Both of these people had lived in Atlanta for a few years and had never heard of the Thrashers. These people are all mid-late 20s professionals with disposable income. This is exactly who the team should be trying to market to.

Now, let's fast forward a few months:

My office decides to have an outing to a Thrashers game. About 30 people choose to go. It is an amazing time. Since then, the following has happened:

Between 5-12 of us go to pretty much every game.
We'll be getting at least three (likely quite a few more) season tickets for next year.
Three people who had never seen hockey before have now bought jerseys.
They've also bought hats, sweatshirts, t-shirts, and all kinds of stuff.
Last week we started playing street hockey outside the office on Friday. Everyone has bought sticks, pads, and everyone is learning to skate. This last Friday we had about 15 people playing hockey (people rotated).

This is how hockey can grow in the city. Getting people to the game once has produced a lot of new fans who help fill the seats.

copernicanrevolution is offline  
Old
04-08-2010, 01:23 AM
  #72
funky11
Registered User
 
funky11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: chilliwack , bc
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,754
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by copernicanrevolution View Post

Between 5-12 of us go to pretty much every game.
We'll be getting at least three (likely quite a few more) season tickets for next year.
Three people who had never seen hockey before have now bought jerseys.
They've also bought hats, sweatshirts, t-shirts, and all kinds of stuff.
Last week we started playing street hockey outside the office on Friday. Everyone has bought sticks, pads, and everyone is learning to skate. This last Friday we had about 15 people playing hockey (people rotated).

This is how hockey can grow in the city. Getting people to the game once has produced a lot of new fans who help fill the seats.
that's awesome!

funky11 is offline  
Old
04-08-2010, 12:56 PM
  #73
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 33,171
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by digger18 View Post
There may be 4 million people in Atlanta but if only 20,000 of them care about hockey your best to cut your losses and get out. You can stay there and lose 10 million a year, or move somewhere you will actually make money.
This sounds good in principle, but in reality it is not an effective plan for business growth. Imagine if Bill Gates had decided to sell rotary phones instead of personal computers because that's what people "cared" about at the time.

The purpose of a major business investment is to find a potential market and exploit it for profit. Going into a place where the product is already saturated might not cause losses upfront, but it also won't make a fortune in the long run.

tarheelhockey is online now  
Old
04-08-2010, 07:42 PM
  #74
Kaientai
Registered User
 
Kaientai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 33
vCash: 500
I have traveled to Atlanta often for work and it is a good town, but someone apathetic towards sports. They haven't done as much for the NBA Hawks as they could. It seems as if the fanbase lies a lot towards football and baseball at present. Still, it is such a growing city you don't want to see hockey fail there.

Kaientai is offline  
Old
04-08-2010, 09:18 PM
  #75
Stej
Good Canadian Kid!
 
Stej's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The Kirk
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by copernicanrevolution View Post
Now, let's fast forward a few months:

My office decides to have an outing to a Thrashers game. About 30 people choose to go. It is an amazing time. Since then, the following has happened:

Between 5-12 of us go to pretty much every game.
We'll be getting at least three (likely quite a few more) season tickets for next year.
Three people who had never seen hockey before have now bought jerseys.
They've also bought hats, sweatshirts, t-shirts, and all kinds of stuff.
Last week we started playing street hockey outside the office on Friday. Everyone has bought sticks, pads, and everyone is learning to skate. This last Friday we had about 15 people playing hockey (people rotated).

This is how hockey can grow in the city. Getting people to the game once has produced a lot of new fans who help fill the seats.
I've always said that if I was the NHL's main marketing man, my goal would be to get every person in the US to attend just 1 live game. Don't care how you do it - free tickets, pay them to go, drive them yourself. Anyway. Anyhow.

If that were to happen, the game would explode and we'd never be having these discussions about dead markets. People that have never seen the game live just can't understand how amazing it is. It doesn't quite translate on TV.

I realize that the struggling markets already are giving tickets away, but those deals are being snapped up by people who are already hockey fans. The trick is to lure the apathetic "don't care" people.

Stej is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:03 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.