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I don't mind the "Predwing" fans that relocated to Nashville with the car plants and love NHL hockey. Most of them are Preds fans unless they play the Preds.
The ones I have problems with are the ones that live here and won't buy a ticket to the Predators games because they're not supporting any team but the DRW, then they dog Nashville for not selling out....
Are there a lot of those types in Nashville? I'm curious because I really don't know. Is Nashville just full of hockey fans that refuse to buy Predators tickets because they are fans of another team?
This is spot on. Also, the traffic situation is bad enough to dissuade fans from travelling to a game.
I would consider going to a game in ATL, if there was not a 50% chance of being stuck in gridlock.
I don't think Canadians really understand the sprawl and traffic issues that Atlanta is presented with. I used to travel to Atlanta quite frequently due to business and began to despise the city after waisting many hours just sitting in traffic.
Ex. Atlanta Metro has a population density of around 630 people per sq/mile. Metro Toronto's density is 2,700 per sq mile. You just don't see the condo development that you see in most Canadian cities. Couple this with the lack of public transportation to get from the suburbs to downtown and you get a city of gridlock.
I can understand why hockey fans in Atlanta would not want to sit in traffic to get to a Thrashers game. I know it's one of the last things I would want to do after long day of work.
Are there a lot of those types in Nashville? I'm curious because I really don't know. Is Nashville just full of hockey fans that refuse to buy Predators tickets because they are fans of another team?
If the following situation came to pass it would be too funny. Atlanta moves to Winnipeg but gets little support because most of the hockey fans in Winnipeg are still Coyote fans..
I don't think Canadians really understand the sprawl and traffic issues that Atlanta is presented with. I used to travel to Atlanta quite frequently due to business and began to despise the city after waisting many hours just sitting in traffic.
Ex. Atlanta Metro has a population density of around 630 people per sq/mile. Metro Toronto's density is 2,700 per sq mile. You just don't see the condo development that you see in most Canadian cities. Couple this with the lack of public transportation to get from the suburbs to downtown and you get a city of gridlock.
I can understand why hockey fans in Atlanta would not want to sit in traffic to get to a Thrashers game. I know it's one of the last things I would want to do after long day of work.
The traffic is just as bad in Washington or LA and it's not a factor. I lived in Boston until six years ago, and I find the traffic here to be a breeze comparably. If you are driving from one end of town to the other that's your own fault, and it would be just as bad if you were driving from Newark to Brooklyn. Same distance, same deal.
If the following situation came to pass it would be too funny. Atlanta moves to Winnipeg but gets little support because most of the hockey fans in Winnipeg are still Coyote fans..
I know very few Winnipeggers who are coyotes fans. At this point, I think I would rather get the Thrashers over the Coyotes (franchise seems cursed). Thrashers to Winnipeg would be clean slate. A fresh start.
WAIT!!! This blog is a bunch of speculation. How does he know that Atlanta's NMC is "seven years"? Waddell and the Atlanta ownership has said that it will run for TEN years from the point of their 2004 sale - or at least has said that it is in effect for several more years from now. It's NOT a seven year NMC, that is a fact.
End of thread, imo. Just blog speculation. No substance whatsoever.
There's a reason the Gwinnett Gladiators put the caveat of "on weekends and holidays" on their advertisement below (at the Cooler). Though I would challenge anyone to actually get from Alpharetta to Duluth in 15 minutes even on clear roads. Dubious.
I don't think Canadians really understand the sprawl and traffic issues that Atlanta is presented with. I used to travel to Atlanta quite frequently due to business and began to despise the city after waisting many hours just sitting in traffic.
Ex. Atlanta Metro has a population density of around 630 people per sq/mile. Metro Toronto's density is 2,700 per sq mile. You just don't see the condo development that you see in most Canadian cities. Couple this with the lack of public transportation to get from the suburbs to downtown and you get a city of gridlock.
I can understand why hockey fans in Atlanta would not want to sit in traffic to get to a Thrashers game. I know it's one of the last things I would want to do after long day of work.
Atlanta was not included in this study (which, to be fair, some say it isn't the most accurate) however cities such as New York, Boston, and LA were and according to this at least, Toronto has the worst commute out of the 19 cities in the study with Montreal trailing right behind. So its not like Atlanta is the only one coupled with traffic problems and its not like Canadian fans don't know traffic.
I know very few Winnipeggers who are coyotes fans. At this point, I think I would rather get the Thrashers over the Coyotes (franchise seems cursed). Thrashers to Winnipeg would be clean slate. A fresh start.
I disagree. The Coyotes would give Winnipeg immediate success. Bad fan support withstanding, that's a damn good team!
I would like to point out that there are a couple of false prophets in this thread. Some folks who say they live in Atlanta have a clear axe to grind, and very little of their complaints are factually based.
With the exception of about five years, I've lived most of my adult life in metro Atlanta, and I can tell you a handful of things.
1: Atlanta is an event town. Whatever becomes the "event" for that time, will sell out, make a ton of money, and gather everyone's attention. Recent examples of this were the NBA All-Star Game, the NHL All-Star Game (find someone who went to that who *didn't* love the atmosphere. Philips was electric), the Vick-era Falcons, and the Pre-and-Post season Peach Bowls. The SEC Championship is a great example, too. Right now, the Hawks are becoming the "event" in the city, and are gathering a ton of fans, and a lot of talk on the area's two sports radio stations. Five years ago, you couldn't pay the people on the radio to talk about the Hawks. Now, everyone wants in. The Thrashers could very easily follow this pattern.
2: Winning cures all. The Falcons come immediately to mind. For about 25 years, no one in this city cared much at all about the Foulcons. They were wretched, and there was no hope. But the '98 SB run re-energized the fans, and the Vick years brought a lot of people out to the games. Now with Ryan and co., the Falcons have sold out every game for going on six years now. That's a big deal to a franchise that used to be the butt of numerous jokes, and just NOW posted consecutive winning seasons.
3: Outsiders have no idea how inept the management has been. Seriously. From day one, Thrashers management has been loathe to embrace the hockey traditions that do exist here. There has been no attempt to bring in any sense of history regarding the Flames and former Flames that now live here, and absolutely NO mention of the beloved Atlanta Knights. Marketing has been completely unable to tie the team to the city, and appeals far more often to carpetbaggers who won't embrace the Thrashers as their team (and instead just a venue to watch the Penguins, Sabres, Rangers or Wings play), and not to the natives who live in the area. Whenever native Georgians/Southerners go to the games (from personal experience), they have a blast and buy tickets on their own. But the team has never tried to market to these people, and instead go after transplants who actually care less. Also, don't get me started about the Thrashers involvement with the sizable youth hockey scene here. It's wretched, inept, and wholly disorganized.
4: Don Waddell. Let him run your club for 10 years, and see how many fans you get at your games. He tried to build around stars, instead of just building a winning program. It's blown up completely in his face, but most fans just accept that he'll always be pulling the strings. This level of frustration slowly turns to apathy, and only Islanders fans from the Milbury years can really comiserate.
5: With the exception of *possibly* folks in the GTA and the Maple Leafs, no one on these boards really understands just how big college football is here. There simply is no hockey comparison to it. Because of this, the Thrashers attendance season really starts in mid-December, and for the club's entire existence (save two years), they're already mathematically eliminated by this time. This city is literally starved for something to do after football season, and winning hockey is actually the perfect transition. But we've never really had it, so we wouldn't know how it would work.
Someone on the Thrashers board once mused how different our market would be if we had been the Predators, and Nashville had had the Thrashers. I can guarantee you that if Atlanta had a similar level of consistent success or track record of being competitive, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I truly fear that the idiots who run the Thrashers will wind up forcing them to move before we ever get a chance to see what this town would be like with a real management structure and a consistent winning product. Sadly, we the fans aren't in control of this.
I know this has been a long post, but I think there is significant value here, and the Atlanta area is a potential gold mine. But we've never had competent miners.
The traffic is just as bad in Washington or LA and it's not a factor.
I can't speak about LA, but the downtown commute in Atlanta and Washington are not at all similar.
The Verizon Center is located adjacent to a Metro stop in the middle of DC's Chinatown, surrounded by tens of thousands of hotel rooms and residences. Compared to Atlanta, it's a breeze to get in and out of that district by foot, rail or car... assuming you even need to leave the area. The locals I know there all use the Metro to get to and from Caps games.
By comparison, Philips Arena is located in Downtown Atlanta, virtually cut off from the rest of the city except by car. Yes, technically you could get on the MARTA and walk the half-mile to the arena, but locals avoid that option for a reason. I once spent 3 days at a business conference at the Omni Hotel adjacent to Philips, and I think I left the immediate area of the hotel/arena complex once in those three days. Not that it isn't a nice area, but the cityscape is completely inadequate for a quick casual visit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by htpwn
So its not like Atlanta is the only one coupled with traffic problems and its not like Canadian fans don't know traffic.
Having experienced Toronto traffic as well, I can assure you that Toronto >>>>>>>>>> Atlanta when it comes to traffic management and urban planning. It's not just volume-based congestion at play, it's the design of the entire city as a whole.
Sadly, my visits to Atlanta have led me to share the following experience:
Quote:
I used to travel to Atlanta quite frequently due to business and began to despise the city after waisting many hours just sitting in traffic.
Is there anything that can be done to fix traffic?
Does the local government have any plans?
the biggest issue is our total FAIL of a mass transit system. It doesnt extend far enough out of the city to reach most people. For me to get to a game i have to spend an hour sitting in traffic to drive in or drive 20 minutes to the marta station and then another 45 until i actually get to the arena.
the best option would be the arena being farther north, but obviously that isnt happening
I would like to point out that there are a couple of false prophets in this thread. Some folks who say they live in Atlanta have a clear axe to grind, and very little of their complaints are factually based.
With the exception of about five years, I've lived most of my adult life in metro Atlanta, and I can tell you a handful of things.
1: Atlanta is an event town. Whatever becomes the "event" for that time, will sell out, make a ton of money, and gather everyone's attention. Recent examples of this were the NBA All-Star Game, the NHL All-Star Game (find someone who went to that who *didn't* love the atmosphere. Philips was electric), the Vick-era Falcons, and the Pre-and-Post season Peach Bowls. The SEC Championship is a great example, too. Right now, the Hawks are becoming the "event" in the city, and are gathering a ton of fans, and a lot of talk on the area's two sports radio stations. Five years ago, you couldn't pay the people on the radio to talk about the Hawks. Now, everyone wants in. The Thrashers could very easily follow this pattern.
2: Winning cures all. The Falcons come immediately to mind. For about 25 years, no one in this city cared much at all about the Foulcons. They were wretched, and there was no hope. But the '98 SB run re-energized the fans, and the Vick years brought a lot of people out to the games. Now with Ryan and co., the Falcons have sold out every game for going on six years now. That's a big deal to a franchise that used to be the butt of numerous jokes, and just NOW posted consecutive winning seasons.
3: Outsiders have no idea how inept the management has been. Seriously. From day one, Thrashers management has been loathe to embrace the hockey traditions that do exist here. There has been no attempt to bring in any sense of history regarding the Flames and former Flames that now live here, and absolutely NO mention of the beloved Atlanta Knights. Marketing has been completely unable to tie the team to the city, and appeals far more often to carpetbaggers who won't embrace the Thrashers as their team (and instead just a venue to watch the Penguins, Sabres, Rangers or Wings play), and not to the natives who live in the area. Whenever native Georgians/Southerners go to the games (from personal experience), they have a blast and buy tickets on their own. But the team has never tried to market to these people, and instead go after transplants who actually care less. Also, don't get me started about the Thrashers involvement with the sizable youth hockey scene here. It's wretched, inept, and wholly disorganized.
4: Don Waddell. Let him run your club for 10 years, and see how many fans you get at your games. He tried to build around stars, instead of just building a winning program. It's blown up completely in his face, but most fans just accept that he'll always be pulling the strings. This level of frustration slowly turns to apathy, and only Islanders fans from the Milbury years can really comiserate.
5: With the exception of *possibly* folks in the GTA and the Maple Leafs, no one on these boards really understands just how big college football is here. There simply is no hockey comparison to it. Because of this, the Thrashers attendance season really starts in mid-December, and for the club's entire existence (save two years), they're already mathematically eliminated by this time. This city is literally starved for something to do after football season, and winning hockey is actually the perfect transition. But we've never really had it, so we wouldn't know how it would work.
Someone on the Thrashers board once mused how different our market would be if we had been the Predators, and Nashville had had the Thrashers. I can guarantee you that if Atlanta had a similar level of consistent success or track record of being competitive, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I truly fear that the idiots who run the Thrashers will wind up forcing them to move before we ever get a chance to see what this town would be like with a real management structure and a consistent winning product. Sadly, we the fans aren't in control of this.
I know this has been a long post, but I think there is significant value here, and the Atlanta area is a potential gold mine. But we've never had competent miners.
Why is it that not a single sunbelt team can find competent management? Every single one of them is struggling financially. There is one common attribute.
I would like to point out that there are a couple of false prophets in this thread. Some folks who say they live in Atlanta have a clear axe to grind, and very little of their complaints are factually based.
Since I'm the only one on this thread who I have seen to claim to live in Atlanta (and I do live here mind you) I'll assume this is directed at me.
Why is it that not a single sunbelt team can find competent management? Every single one of them is struggling financially. There is one common attribute.
Every single sunbelt team is struggling? How are we defining sunbelt team?
If your definition of a sunbelt team is "a struggling franchise", then yes, every sunbelt team is struggling Posted via Mobile Device
Every single sunbelt team is struggling? How are we defining sunbelt team?
If your definition of a sunbelt team is "a struggling franchise", then yes, every sunbelt team is struggling Posted via Mobile Device
Tampa, Florida, Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta and Phoenix are all losing money and four of those teams are currently up for sale while TB was recently sold.
Is there anything that can be done to fix traffic?
Does the local government have any plans?
Simple answer: no, nothing can be done. Atlanta has one of the worst urban infrastructures in the developed world, and a laundry list of fundamental problems that would take generations to correct:
not one but TWO interstate highways converging and running through the middle of the downtown district
a decentralized urban core that stretches across the entire horizon in a non-contiguous, linear corridor... flush against non-urban areas which can't support the infrastructure of a true cityscape
virtually no traditional city districts -- Atlanta consists mostly of suburbs which have been swallowed by the urban city
a small, inadequate rail system supported by a racially-stratified and logistically useless bus system
less than 1/10th the total population actually lives within the city limits, making coordinated solutions nearly impossible
That's only the beginning. Never mind the nitty-gritty of all that has gone wrong due to these large factors. And this is not meant as a flame against Atlanta -- Raleigh is no better in most respects -- but as an illustration to those who are comparing it to DC or Toronto. It is, in every way, the worst-designed city in North America from an urban-planning point of view.
Quote:
Why is it that not a single sunbelt team can find competent management? Every single one of them is struggling financially. There is one common attribute.
A) It's not true that none of them have competent management. At various times we have seen the Sharks, Stars, Kings, Ducks, Hurricanes, Predators, and even the Lightning run competently.
B) The common attribute for those who are struggling is that they are run by people who know little or nothing about how to make money in pro hockey. For the most part they were let into the league without discretion, because they could pay the expansion fee and talked a good game about commitment. That's where the sunbelt expansion went off the rails, not in the market-selection process.
You didn't answer the question of what your definition of a sunbelt team is..all you did was list teams that are struggling. Posted via Mobile Device
No I did not. I listed what are sunbelt( as i understand the term) teams that are struggling. I did not include Carolina or Nashville, Dallas because I don't know those teams to be in the Sunbelt. If my definition of sunbelt is so contentious that we need to go back and forth revising it, instead of discussing the spirit of my comment, let's just say Southern US teams.
I would like to point out that there are a couple of false prophets in this thread. Some folks who say they live in Atlanta have a clear axe to grind, and very little of their complaints are factually based.
With the exception of about five years, I've lived most of my adult life in metro Atlanta, and I can tell you a handful of things.
1: Atlanta is an event town. Whatever becomes the "event" for that time, will sell out, make a ton of money, and gather everyone's attention. Recent examples of this were the NBA All-Star Game, the NHL All-Star Game (find someone who went to that who *didn't* love the atmosphere. Philips was electric), the Vick-era Falcons, and the Pre-and-Post season Peach Bowls. The SEC Championship is a great example, too. Right now, the Hawks are becoming the "event" in the city, and are gathering a ton of fans, and a lot of talk on the area's two sports radio stations. Five years ago, you couldn't pay the people on the radio to talk about the Hawks. Now, everyone wants in. The Thrashers could very easily follow this pattern.
2: Winning cures all. The Falcons come immediately to mind. For about 25 years, no one in this city cared much at all about the Foulcons. They were wretched, and there was no hope. But the '98 SB run re-energized the fans, and the Vick years brought a lot of people out to the games. Now with Ryan and co., the Falcons have sold out every game for going on six years now. That's a big deal to a franchise that used to be the butt of numerous jokes, and just NOW posted consecutive winning seasons.
3: Outsiders have no idea how inept the management has been. Seriously. From day one, Thrashers management has been loathe to embrace the hockey traditions that do exist here. There has been no attempt to bring in any sense of history regarding the Flames and former Flames that now live here, and absolutely NO mention of the beloved Atlanta Knights. Marketing has been completely unable to tie the team to the city, and appeals far more often to carpetbaggers who won't embrace the Thrashers as their team (and instead just a venue to watch the Penguins, Sabres, Rangers or Wings play), and not to the natives who live in the area. Whenever native Georgians/Southerners go to the games (from personal experience), they have a blast and buy tickets on their own. But the team has never tried to market to these people, and instead go after transplants who actually care less. Also, don't get me started about the Thrashers involvement with the sizable youth hockey scene here. It's wretched, inept, and wholly disorganized.
4: Don Waddell. Let him run your club for 10 years, and see how many fans you get at your games. He tried to build around stars, instead of just building a winning program. It's blown up completely in his face, but most fans just accept that he'll always be pulling the strings. This level of frustration slowly turns to apathy, and only Islanders fans from the Milbury years can really comiserate.
5: With the exception of *possibly* folks in the GTA and the Maple Leafs, no one on these boards really understands just how big college football is here. There simply is no hockey comparison to it. Because of this, the Thrashers attendance season really starts in mid-December, and for the club's entire existence (save two years), they're already mathematically eliminated by this time. This city is literally starved for something to do after football season, and winning hockey is actually the perfect transition. But we've never really had it, so we wouldn't know how it would work.
Someone on the Thrashers board once mused how different our market would be if we had been the Predators, and Nashville had had the Thrashers. I can guarantee you that if Atlanta had a similar level of consistent success or track record of being competitive, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I truly fear that the idiots who run the Thrashers will wind up forcing them to move before we ever get a chance to see what this town would be like with a real management structure and a consistent winning product. Sadly, we the fans aren't in control of this.
I know this has been a long post, but I think there is significant value here, and the Atlanta area is a potential gold mine. But we've never had competent miners.
Pittsburgh is just a big NFL town as Atlanta is a college football town. The Pens manage just fine with the Steelers....
No I did not. I listed what are sunbelt( as i understand the term) teams that are struggling. I did not include Carolina or Nashville, Dallas because I don't know those teams to be in the Sunbelt. If my definition of sunbelt is so contentious that we need to go back and forth revising it, instead of discussing the spirit of my comment, let's just say Southern US teams.
Ahh, I see.
So you pick and choose which are the sunbelt teams to support your contention that "every single sunbelt team is struggling".
Even at looking at this singular posts - how you convince yourself that Carolina, Nashville, and Dallas are not in the southern united states is beyond me. Posted via Mobile Device
Pittsburgh is just a big NFL town as Atlanta is a college football town. The Pens manage just fine with the Steelers....
If the Pens failed to make the playoffs 9 of 10 seasons, they would be in the same situation as the Thrashers....probably worse since Atlanta has a larger base of corporate support.
