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Alfie in Hockey Hall of Fame?

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Old
04-08-2010, 03:02 AM
  #51
Sens Rule
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
There is more then Ciccarelli. The following players are having a tough time getting in...

Dave Andreychuk
Brian Bellows
Doug Gilmour
Vincint Damphousse
Alexander Mogilny
Steve Larmer
Adam Oates
Pat Verbeek

If these players are having a hard time, Alfie will too.
Dave Andreychuk - Not an elite player a compiler.. he may get in but Alfie is clearly better.
Brian Bellows Will not get in. Alfie is clearly a lot better.
Doug Gilmour Gilmour is better. He faced some great players i his years of eligibility. He will get in soon.
Vincint Damphousse May get in. May not. A very good player. I think Alfie is better and will get more HHOF votes.
Alexander Mogilny Inconsistent. Alfie is better. Maybe he gets in but likely not.
Steve Larmer Very good player. Benefits form the high scoring era he played in. Worse plaYERS ARE IN THE hALL... I doubt he ever gets in. Only dynasty players of his caliber get in... like Gilles.
Adam Oates Gonna get in. Like Gilmour he has been overlooked for superstars for a couple of years.. soon he is in.
Pat Verbeek Alfie is better. A lot of goals but not really a great plAYER.. MAY STILL EVENTUally get in.

Alfie is the best player for a franchise. He also was the best player in the world for a short time in the 07 playoffs. A couple of more aLFIE seasons and he is more than a 50% chance to get in. IMO.

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02-21-2013, 07:04 AM
  #52
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I think the best comparable is to see who is in the HHOF without their name on the cup, and compare their stats and their impact on their respective franchises to Alfie's.

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02-21-2013, 08:49 AM
  #53
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Over on the HoH board and By the Numbers board they've had this discussion and concluded that Alfie is a HHOFer based on career; borderline, perhaps, but that he's earned the right to be there.

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02-21-2013, 09:10 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Below View Post
There is more then Ciccarelli. The following players are having a tough time getting in...

Dave Andreychuk
Brian Bellows
Doug Gilmour
Vincent Damphousse
Alexander Mogilny
Steve Larmer
Adam Oates
Pat Verbeek

If these players are having a hard time, Alfie will too.
Those three get in for sure.

Alfredsson is all but a lock. 1000 point career.

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02-21-2013, 09:12 AM
  #55
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Considering he put 1,000 points during one of the most anemic offensive periods of the NHL, I would hope the journalists would recognize that.

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02-21-2013, 09:27 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by FreakyBunny View Post
I think the best comparable is to see who is in the HHOF without their name on the cup, and compare their stats and their impact on their respective franchises to Alfie's.
If you're gonna bump an almost 3 year old thread, you could've at least compared some of the names yourself.

And as a Leafs fan, I do think Alfie should make it in. 400 goals and 1100 points is good, though not good enough to make him a lock. But he was also a good defensive player and Ottawa's most important player so far. I don't think he is too far off from Sundin.

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02-21-2013, 09:35 AM
  #57
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He should get in. FOR SURE! If Sundin gets in, first ballot. I cannot think Alfie doesn't get in at some point in his career.

Alfie has the stats, he has the leadership, and he's got the stats in the worlds as well.

So yeah, he gets in. Not first ballot - but will get there eventually.

edit: didn't realize this was an old poll

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02-21-2013, 10:24 AM
  #58
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Yep, if Sundin got in first ballot. Alfredsson should be there eventually (he's got SCF & Calder, Clancy, Carbonneau awards & other nominations over Sundin)

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02-21-2013, 10:51 AM
  #59
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Let's be honest - the standards for the Hockey Hall of Fame aren't nearly as tough as they are for Baseball and Football Halls of Fame. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as you could argue that it makes the Hockey Hall of Fame more relevant to a broader group of fans. Some of the recent inductions, though, have been interesting.

In recent years, the Hockey Hall of Fame saw fit to induct Bernie Federko and Clark Gillies. In addition, they inducted Bob Pulford, plus pretty much every other player who ever laced up for the Leafs in the 60s. (It turns out Hall of Fame voting is heavily influenced by baby boomer writers who were young boys during the Leafs' glory years. Who knew?) I don't think Federko belonged, and I definitely don't think Clark Gillies belonged, but the fact remains that they are now in. So too are Dino Ciccarelli and Glenn Anderson, and I think Alfie's career stacks up very well with both those guys.

Bottom line - I think Alfie ends up going in.

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02-21-2013, 11:49 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Orr123 View Post
He should get in. FOR SURE! If Sundin gets in, first ballot. I cannot think Alfie doesn't get in at some point in his career.

Alfie has the stats, he has the leadership, and he's got the stats in the worlds as well.

So yeah, he gets in. Not first ballot - but will get there eventually.

edit: didn't realize this was an old poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanityplease View Post
Yep, if Sundin got in first ballot. Alfredsson should be there eventually (he's got SCF & Calder, Clancy, Carbonneau awards & other nominations over Sundin)
The thing with Sundin is:

500 goals
1000 points

Those are HHOF lock catergories. On top of that he was the first Euro drafted 1st overall, captained Swedes to gold as well. Plus he played in Toronto which never hurts.

Let's look at Alfredsson's resumé. For fun I compared to Sundin. I included playoffs and decided not be lazy.

Top 5 finishes in points:
Alfredsson: 2 (5 in 2005-2006, 5 in 2006-2007)
Sundin: 1 (4th in 2001-2002)


Highest finishes in GWG:
Alfredsson: 17 (6 in 2002-2003) 7 (8 in 2005-2006) 15 (7 in 2006-2007) 15 (7 in 2007-2008) 29 (5 in 2009-2010) Top 5 in GWG: 1, Top 10: 2
Sundin: 21 (6 in 1998-1999), 10 (7 in 1999-2000), 27 (6 in 2000-2001) 2 (9 in 2001-2002), 1 (10 in 2003-2004) Top 5 in GWG: 2 Top 10 in GWG: 3


Individual Awards:
Alfredsson: Calder 1996 (Where is Eric Daze these days...), King Clancy 2012, Guy Cabonneau Top PK (2008), several international and NHL All-Star Teams
Sundin: Mark Messier Leadership Award 2008, several international All-Star teams and NHL All-Star teams.

International Play:
Alfredsson: Gold (Olympics, Turin), Silver x2 (World Championship, Stockholm, Prague/Ostrava), Bronze x2 (World CHampionship, Oslo/Harmar, Cologne/Hanover)
Sund]in: [/B] Gold (Olympics, Turin), Gold x3 (World Championships, Finland, Czechoslovakia, Switzerland), Silver x 1 (Finland) Bronze x 2 (Germany, Italy)

Alfredsson has more NHL Awards (Clancy, Calder, Carbonneau)
Sundin has more Intertional Awards (Swedish Champion, Tv-Pucken, Elisterien World All-Star Team, Viking Award 5 years, Worlc Championship, Olympic and WOrld Cup All-Star Teams)

International points:Alfredsson: Olympic: 20GP 11 G 12 A 23 PTS World Championships: 62 GP 19G 28 A 47pts
Sundin: Oympic: 16 GP 11G 9A 20 points World Championships: 39 GP 18 G 26A 44 PTS

The Sundin page for International play was a jumbled, unsorted mess while Alfredsson's was broken down properly, so Sundin's may be off.

NHL Playoffs:
Alfredsson: 111 GP 49 G 41 A 90 Points
Sundin: 91 GP 38 G 44 A 82 Points

Sundin: 91 GP 38G 44 A 82 Points

End of very long story:

Yes, Alfredsson will make the HHOF. Will he be a first ballot? Well, maybe not. He lacks the 500 goal mark for one, but his community work, off-ice work with You Can Play and You Know Who I Am, plus Canadian market captaincy and media flogging (let's face it, Jason York will be camping at the HHOF as will other Ottawa media members.

Ideally, I would have liked Forsberg/ALfie/Sundin all in HHOF same year but Sundin jumped queue, oh well.

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Old
02-21-2013, 11:50 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larionov View Post
Let's be honest - the standards for the Hockey Hall of Fame aren't nearly as tough as they are for Baseball and Football Halls of Fame. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as you could argue that it makes the Hockey Hall of Fame more relevant to a broader group of fans. Some of the recent inductions, though, have been interesting.

In recent years, the Hockey Hall of Fame saw fit to induct Bernie Federko and Clark Gillies. In addition, they inducted Bob Pulford, plus pretty much every other player who ever laced up for the Leafs in the 60s. (It turns out Hall of Fame voting is heavily influenced by baby boomer writers who were young boys during the Leafs' glory years. Who knew?) I don't think Federko belonged, and I definitely don't think Clark Gillies belonged, but the fact remains that they are now in. So too are Dino Ciccarelli and Glenn Anderson, and I think Alfie's career stacks up very well with both those guys.

Bottom line - I think Alfie ends up going in.
You can make the case for Federko being pivotal to the St. Louis franchise, juat as Alfie is to Ottawa. Plus I look at the HHOF selection committee and see Peter Stastny, Igor Larionov, Anders Hedberg Scott Morrison and a smattering of others. Not all TO people?

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02-21-2013, 12:40 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by The Great Below View Post
Unless he wins a cup, hart or conn myth he does not get in.
Why? Those trophies are only handed out to players in the NHL...this is the hockey hall of fame we are talking about NOT the NHL hall of fame.

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Old
02-21-2013, 12:44 PM
  #63
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Why? Those trophies are only handed out to players in the NHL...this is the hockey hall of fame we are talking about NOT the NHL hall of fame.
Because the Hockey Hall of Fame has always been biased toward the NHL, because the NHL is considered the best league in the world.

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02-21-2013, 12:45 PM
  #64
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If I had my way he wouldn't get in

I hate the way the HHoF is run: they allow far too many people just to justify being around. Hall of Fames are trivialized when a guy like Sundin, who is a great player who didn't achieve much other than being really freaking good, gets in; I think achievements (I guess awards) don't matter enough to people who pick who gets in, they just want people to get in so they can talk about it.

To me the HHoF should be reserved for people like Sakic, Coffey, Yzerman, Lidstrom, Orr, LEmieux etc...: it should be for the top of the crop, not every player that was really good.


Last edited by Do Make Say Think: 02-21-2013 at 01:05 PM.
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Old
02-21-2013, 12:59 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
The thing with Sundin is:

500 goals
1000 points

Those are HHOF lock catergories. On top of that he was the first Euro drafted 1st overall, captained Swedes to gold as well. Plus he played in Toronto which never hurts.

Let's look at Alfredsson's resumé. For fun I compared to Sundin. I included playoffs and decided not be lazy.

Top 5 finishes in points:
Alfredsson: 2 (5 in 2005-2006, 5 in 2006-2007)
Sundin: 1 (4th in 2001-2002)


Highest finishes in GWG:
Alfredsson: 17 (6 in 2002-2003) 7 (8 in 2005-2006) 15 (7 in 2006-2007) 15 (7 in 2007-2008) 29 (5 in 2009-2010) Top 5 in GWG: 1, Top 10: 2
Sundin: 21 (6 in 1998-1999), 10 (7 in 1999-2000), 27 (6 in 2000-2001) 2 (9 in 2001-2002), 1 (10 in 2003-2004) Top 5 in GWG: 2 Top 10 in GWG: 3


Individual Awards:
Alfredsson: Calder 1996 (Where is Eric Daze these days...), King Clancy 2012, Guy Cabonneau Top PK (2008), several international and NHL All-Star Teams
Sundin: Mark Messier Leadership Award 2008, several international All-Star teams and NHL All-Star teams.

International Play:
Alfredsson: Gold (Olympics, Turin), Silver x2 (World Championship, Stockholm, Prague/Ostrava), Bronze x2 (World CHampionship, Oslo/Harmar, Cologne/Hanover)
Sund]in: [/B] Gold (Olympics, Turin), Gold x3 (World Championships, Finland, Czechoslovakia, Switzerland), Silver x 1 (Finland) Bronze x 2 (Germany, Italy)

Alfredsson has more NHL Awards (Clancy, Calder, Carbonneau)
Sundin has more Intertional Awards (Swedish Champion, Tv-Pucken, Elisterien World All-Star Team, Viking Award 5 years, Worlc Championship, Olympic and WOrld Cup All-Star Teams)

International points:Alfredsson: Olympic: 20GP 11 G 12 A 23 PTS World Championships: 62 GP 19G 28 A 47pts
Sundin: Oympic: 16 GP 11G 9A 20 points World Championships: 39 GP 18 G 26A 44 PTS

The Sundin page for International play was a jumbled, unsorted mess while Alfredsson's was broken down properly, so Sundin's may be off.

NHL Playoffs:
Alfredsson: 111 GP 49 G 41 A 90 Points
Sundin: 91 GP 38 G 44 A 82 Points

Sundin: 91 GP 38G 44 A 82 Points

End of very long story:

Yes, Alfredsson will make the HHOF. Will he be a first ballot? Well, maybe not. He lacks the 500 goal mark for one, but his community work, off-ice work with You Can Play and You Know Who I Am, plus Canadian market captaincy and media flogging (let's face it, Jason York will be camping at the HHOF as will other Ottawa media members.

Ideally, I would have liked Forsberg/ALfie/Sundin all in HHOF same year but Sundin jumped queue, oh well.
This.

The bar has already been set.

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02-21-2013, 02:05 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
The thing with Sundin is:

Individual Awards:
Alfredsson: Calder 1996 (Where is Eric Daze these days...), King Clancy 2012, Guy Cabonneau Top PK (2008) + many other nominations

Sundin: Mark Messier Leadership Award 2008
Sundin's only NHL award: the recipient of that award is decided by Mark Messier.....

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02-21-2013, 03:49 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by sanityplease View Post
Sundin's only NHL award: the recipient of that award is decided by Mark Messier.....
Might have been some center bias there. There were always a lot bettert centres than Sundin when he was in his "prime" and outside the 110 point season in Quebec he never had a 100ish point season. Just a very long, very consistent and productive career.

Sundin is there more because of his play with Sweden and captaincy of Toronto didn't hurt. Alfie has NHL play AND International play. He's in, but it will depend on his "class". Like if Selanne, Jagr and Brodeur retire this year along with Alfie, he might not be first ballot. ;p

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02-21-2013, 03:53 PM
  #68
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If I had my way he wouldn't get in

I hate the way the HHoF is run: they allow far too many people just to justify being around. Hall of Fames are trivialized when a guy like Sundin, who is a great player who didn't achieve much other than being really freaking good, gets in; I think achievements (I guess awards) don't matter enough to people who pick who gets in, they just want people to get in so they can talk about it.

To me the HHoF should be reserved for people like Sakic, Coffey, Yzerman, Lidstrom, Orr, LEmieux etc...: it should be for the top of the crop, not every player that was really good.

HHOF likes consistency. That's why Sundin got in with close to 20 consecutuve 20 goal seasons (some 30 and 40 in there) and why Tim Thomas might never get in despite an all-world few seasons.

They'll never put the HHOF to be the truly elite as you want because international play matters too. I personally would not have put in Oates or Sundin, Bure would have been iffy. But you need three per year so..

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02-21-2013, 03:59 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
HHOF likes consistency. That's why Sundin got in with close to 20 consecutuve 20 goal seasons (some 30 and 40 in there) and why Tim Thomas might never get in despite an all-world few seasons.

They'll never put the HHOF to be the truly elite as you want because international play matters too. I personally would not have put in Oates or Sundin, Bure would have been iffy. But you need three per year so..
I get this but I don't agree with "you need three per year"

The organization needs three inductees per year to remain relevant to people which is besides the point: to me the point of the HHoF is to recognize the best of the best so I'd say have the NHL and IIHF take over the HHoF and have them work together on putting people in where they deserve to, not to fill a quota.

It's idealistic and very unlikely but I stand by this

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Old
02-21-2013, 06:55 PM
  #70
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A medal of any colour for team Sweden in Sochi would probably ice it.

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02-21-2013, 07:19 PM
  #71
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Since Karlsson's injury I think it has been obvious that Alfie has raised his game to try and take up the slack of losing such an important player. He is skating so much better, like he has suddenly come alive. At the age of 40 he is still something special to watch when he wants to set an example. Just my opinion.

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