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Glen Sather is an enigma

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Old
04-07-2010, 09:08 AM
  #1
KingWantsCup
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Glen Sather is an enigma

When it comes to trades Sather makes moves that seem unfair to whoever we deal with. He can pull a rabbit out of his hat at anytime. Unfortunately his trading ability is totally offset by his inability to sign players to good contracts. Most of the time on a trade he's fixing a problem he himself made ( Higgins/Kotalik trade, Gomez trade). The man who signed Redden is the same man that was in inch away from getting Stamkos for us. It's just like wtf how could you be so good and bad on two sides of your job, you know? I've been a Rangers fan for two years now, so don't shoot me if he made some dumb trade ages ago. Since I've been rooting for the blue shirts I can't recall a trade that made me pissed. Free agency is a totally different story though...

Your thoughts on how Sather handles free agency and trades?

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04-07-2010, 09:40 AM
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You are forgetting the third side -

The ability to construct a proper team. He can pull off as many great or good trades as he wants, but they have to be the right players. His terrible signings prevent him from doing that sometimes, but its been evident he hasnt had a clue in formulating a competitive lineup. His player talent assessment maybe the worst in the league.

Theres also drafting, which he isnt directly involved in but he has the last call on. He has done pretty well as of late after years of sub-par work at the draft table.

And then theres the public relations side, which is null and void. This is one fan who believes the head honcho (owner included) should have a running dialog with the fans instead of avoiding them like the plague. This is a large part of the problem. Everyone in this franchise jams the accountability angle down the players throats but those in the suits are somehow an exception to that rule. Leaders should lead by example and Sather and Dolan should crawl out of their cushy executive chairs and face the music once in a while. Maybe if they connected with the fans better there wouldnt be so much negativity towards them. But its WAAAY too late for that now.

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04-07-2010, 09:55 AM
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but im starting get the impression that Dolan, and more specifically his forcing of managments hand, is the larger problem

sather is under tremendous pressure from above to be a "contender" every year....however, even if its not entirely sathers fault he's still doing a pretty piss poor job

if he doesn't break his horrible cycle this offseason i might even show up at some of these laughable fire sather rallies


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04-07-2010, 09:58 AM
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Enigma means mystery. Inept is a far more accurate description.

I always get a kick out of the statement that he makes such great trades, because he doesn't get fleeced. The bar is so low that it's incredible.

His best trade was Jagr and that was purely salary cap driven, not an exchange where both parties thought they were getting equal value.

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04-07-2010, 10:14 AM
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You spelled "idiot" wrong in the title.

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04-07-2010, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Enigma means mystery. Inept is a far more accurate description.

I always get a kick out of the statement that he makes such great trades, because he doesn't get fleeced. The bar is so low that it's incredible.

His best trade was Jagr and that was purely salary cap driven, not an exchange where both parties thought they were getting equal value.
He does more than just "doesn't get fleeced" in trades. He usually does the fleecing. Your argument against the Jagr trades doesn't hold since it doesn't matter what the reasons were behind any trade, what matters is the end result. The end result is for whatever reason we had the much better end of that deal. I'm sure caps fans would even agree. Gomez deal was a steal for us. And then many of his lesser deals have been great as well. The guy is a magician in that sense.

If you want to kill him on free agency I understand where you're coming from. Although I think it's more a product of management as mullichicken25 said previously. When you're in NYC you're expected to win. And when you don't you're expected to make big moves in free agency. That's just the way it is. And if you're a NYC team you're not expected to lose a bidding war to any other team, because you're the big market, you're the "best city in the world". Yankees sign free agents to huge deals, Knicks are now hoping to instead of rebuilding, and even the Mets do this. It's a product of the city not the GM.

Sather's been good for us lately, the NYC mentality when it comes to pro sports has been bad for us for a long time now.

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04-07-2010, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
He does more than just "doesn't get fleeced" in trades. He usually does the fleecing. Your argument against the Jagr trades doesn't hold since it doesn't matter what the reasons were behind any trade, what matters is the end result. The end result is for whatever reason we had the much better end of that deal. I'm sure caps fans would even agree. Gomez deal was a steal for us. And then many of his lesser deals have been great as well. The guy is a magician in that sense.

If you want to kill him on free agency I understand where you're coming from. Although I think it's more a product of management as mullichicken25 said previously. When you're in NYC you're expected to win. And when you don't you're expected to make big moves in free agency. That's just the way it is. And if you're a NYC team you're not expected to lose a bidding war to any other team, because you're the big market, you're the "best city in the world". Yankees sign free agents to huge deals, Knicks are now hoping to instead of rebuilding, and even the Mets do this. It's a product of the city not the GM.

Sather's been good for us lately, the NYC mentality when it comes to pro sports has been bad for us for a long time now.
Since the lockout what trades has he made that have been steals other than Gomez?

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04-07-2010, 10:48 AM
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If you want to kill him on free agency I understand where you're coming from. Although I think it's more a product of management as mullichicken25 said previously. When you're in NYC you're expected to win. And when you don't you're expected to make big moves in free agency. That's just the way it is. And if you're a NYC team you're not expected to lose a bidding war to any other team, because you're the big market, you're the "best city in the world".
That's fine. But Sather is the one who picked the players. Rather gave a six year deal to Redden whose productivity had declined every year since the lockout. He gave the deal to Kotalik. I don't recall a bidding war for either of them. He gave two years to Brashear. He gave 4 years to Voros.

Blaming Dolan is fine. I have a hard time that Dolan said, "Go get me Wade Redden."

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04-07-2010, 10:50 AM
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Since the lockout what trades has he made that have been steals other than Gomez?
I think getting Prust for Kotalik and Higgins was a steal. He also creates capspace with Jokinen's expiring contract.

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04-07-2010, 10:55 AM
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Well in a capped league you can't be blowing money on huge FA signings.

If there was no cap, I'd say yeah, let's pay kovy 20 million a year

Yes, sather makes great trades, unfortunately most of them are to fix his f-ups. Although I do have to say the flames trade was a complete fleecing. Yeah, we took on a bad contract... but that contract is done, so who cares? Even if jokinen / prust never played a game for us after the trade it would've been a good trade just because we dumped kotalik

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04-07-2010, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
Since the lockout what trades has he made that have been steals other than Gomez?
This is just everything I saw reviewing the rangers transactions the past few years:

Bigger Trades:
February 3, 2010 Traded F Christopher Higgins and F Ales Kotalik to Calgary for F Olli Jokinen and F Brandon Prust.

July 1, 2009 Acquired left wing Chris Higgins and defensemen Ryan McDonagh and Pavel Valentenko from the Montreal Canadiens for centers Scott Gomez and Tom Pyatt and defenseman Mike Busto.

February 27, 2007 D Paul Mara Traded for Aaron Ward

February 5, 2007 LW Sean Avery Traded Five-player trade (no one we gave up has done anything)

Smaller Trades:
February 12, 2010 Acquired LW Jody Shelley from San Jose for a conditional 2011 sixth-round draft pick.

February 26, 2008 Acquired goaltender David LeNeveu, left wing Josh Gratton, right wing Fredrik Sjostrom and a conditional draft pick from the Phoenix Coyotes for goaltender Al Montoya and left wing Marcel Hossa

October 11, 2007 Acquired right wing Pierre Parenteau from the Chicago Blackhawks for a 2008 conditional seventh-round pick.

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04-07-2010, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
Since the lockout what trades has he made that have been steals other than Gomez?
Well, off the top of my head, obviously the Prust trade now counts as one(lol at calling it "the Prust trade")

Then there's the original Avery deal.

After that though word "steal" loses value although he's been decidedly better in that regard.

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04-07-2010, 11:01 AM
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I think getting Prust for Kotalik and Higgins was a steal. He also creates capspace with Jokinen's expiring contract.
Well, keep in mind at the time of the trade he has never really contributed offensively. Prior to the 20 or so games with us, he has 8 career points total. He has 7 with us.

So at the time he was probably just seen as a fighter who might get 3 goals a season

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04-07-2010, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
This is just everything I saw reviewing the rangers transactions the past few years:

Bigger Trades:
February 3, 2010 Traded F Christopher Higgins and F Ales Kotalik to Calgary for F Olli Jokinen and F Brandon Prust.
Good trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
July 1, 2009 Acquired left wing Chris Higgins and defensemen Ryan McDonagh and Pavel Valentenko from the Montreal Canadiens for centers Scott Gomez and Tom Pyatt and defenseman Mike Busto.
Good trade.


Quote:
Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
February 27, 2007 D Paul Mara Traded for Aaron Ward
A wash.


Quote:
Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
February 5, 2007 LW Sean Avery Traded Five-player trade (no one we gave up has done anything)
Smaller Trades:
Quote:
Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
February 12, 2010 Acquired LW Jody Shelley from San Jose for a conditional 2011 sixth-round draft pick.
If the team doesn't make the playoffs its not a great deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
February 26, 2008 Acquired goaltender David LeNeveu, left wing Josh Gratton, right wing Fredrik Sjostrom and a conditional draft pick from the Phoenix Coyotes for goaltender Al Montoya and left wing Marcel Hossa
This was a steal?

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October 11, 2007 Acquired right wing Pierre Parenteau from the Chicago Blackhawks for a 2008 conditional seventh-round pick.
Again, not really a steal.

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04-07-2010, 11:04 AM
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Well, keep in mind at the time of the trade he has never really contributed offensively. Prior to the 20 or so games with us, he has 8 career points total. He has 7 with us.

So at the time he was probably just seen as a fighter who might get 3 goals a season
He still filled a need. His offense has been surprising. But getting a fighter and the chance that Jokinen found his game was worth a lot more than he gave up in Higgins and Kotalik. At the very least the Rangers get capspace.

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04-07-2010, 11:08 AM
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That's fine. But Sather is the one who picked the players. Rather gave a six year deal to Redden whose productivity had declined every year since the lockout. He gave the deal to Kotalik. I don't recall a bidding war for either of them. He gave two years to Brashear. He gave 4 years to Voros.

Blaming Dolan is fine. I have a hard time that Dolan said, "Go get me Wade Redden."
Based on how I remember the atmosphere when we went out and got redden it was we're good except that we have a bunch of no name guys on D. Where's the number one Dman? Obviously Redden didn't turn out to be that guy, but you can at least see where it kind of made sense at the time. I can definitely see management saying we need a complete Dman to be our top guy and Redden looked that way a few years ago, he just needed a change of scenery. That's the thinking at least.

Kotalik was we were desperate for a big shot on the PP, and this guy also might ignite drury his former teammate when he was most productive. Again in reality it failed but you can appreciate the argument at the time.

Usually teams bids on free agents aren't really public but if there's no interest in a guy he doesn't get any money.

Brashear just quit this year. Don't know why but it's not a huge deal really. He's with the pack now. He's an easy scapegoat but he's not really a reason we are where we are.

Voros was we were desperate for an Avery. He's not making a ton anyway even if he's got some years. He doesn't really hurt.

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04-07-2010, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
He still filled a need. His offense has been surprising. But getting a fighter and the chance that Jokinen found his game was worth a lot more than he gave up in Higgins and Kotalik. At the very least the Rangers get capspace.
Not saying the trade isn't a steal. It was a huge steal.

We gave up something that was negative value (kotalik), something of no value (higgins), and got someone who has a little bit of value (prust), and someone of no value (jokinen)

Reason why i say higgins/jokinen are of no value is because they have bloated contracts, but they're pending UFAs

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04-07-2010, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Good trade.
Good trade.
A wash.
Smaller Trades:
If the team doesn't make the playoffs its not a great deal.
This was a steal?
Again, not really a steal.
Yep
Yep
Mara's much better than Ward
Smaller trades
It still brought in a lot more than we gave up
Montoya sucks, Hossa left without doing anything. Shoo did more for us especially on the kill in his time here than either of the guy we gave up have done or will ever do for the coyotes
PAP has brought in more than that pick would have. Not saying it was a steal. More a win for us.

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04-07-2010, 11:13 AM
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Based on how I remember the atmosphere when we went out and got redden it was we're good except that we have a bunch of no name guys on D. Where's the number one Dman? Obviously Redden didn't turn out to be that guy, but you can at least see where it kind of made sense at the time. I can definitely see management saying we need a complete Dman to be our top guy and Redden looked that way a few years ago, he just needed a change of scenery. That's the thinking at least.

Kotalik was we were desperate for a big shot on the PP, and this guy also might ignite drury his former teammate when he was most productive. Again in reality it failed but you can appreciate the argument at the time.

Usually teams bids on free agents aren't really public but if there's no interest in a guy he doesn't get any money.

Brashear just quit this year. Don't know why but it's not a huge deal really. He's with the pack now. He's an easy scapegoat but he's not really a reason we are where we are.

Voros was we were desperate for an Avery. He's not making a ton anyway even if he's got some years. He doesn't really hurt.
It's the combination of all these misguided/miscalculated/ flat out bad signing is what truly hurts. At one point you can't give him the benefit of the doubt.

Redden 6 yrs for 39 mil. Ok. He has been declining for three years and Chara was on the market during this time as well (was Brooks Orpik was well? I'm not sure of him).

Kotalik. All right i can understand the need for the booming shot, as well as perhaps rekindling magic with Drury. 3yrs 9 mil? Why? And a NTC? That's the problem here.

Why Brashear when we had a perfectly capable enforcer in Orr? That one i put blame on both Torts and Sather.

Voros, eh. Him and Rissmiller though were bad signings, when you add it all up, even with the minor guys, that's valuable capspace that could've been used on impact players.

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04-07-2010, 11:28 AM
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The truth is, most of Sather's fantastic trades are a byproduct of terrible asset management in the first place.

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04-07-2010, 11:30 AM
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Based on how I remember the atmosphere when we went out and got redden it was we're good except that we have a bunch of no name guys on D. Where's the number one Dman? Obviously Redden didn't turn out to be that guy, but you can at least see where it kind of made sense at the time. I can definitely see management saying we need a complete Dman to be our top guy and Redden looked that way a few years ago, he just needed a change of scenery. That's the thinking at least.
Redden was never a #1 defenseman. Remembering back there was a reason that Ottawa never made much of an effort to keep him.

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Kotalik was we were desperate for a big shot on the PP, and this guy also might ignite drury his former teammate when he was most productive. Again in reality it failed but you can appreciate the argument at the time.
Desperate or not, he was not worthy of three year contract. And who exactly was Sather bidding against.



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Brashear just quit this year. Don't know why but it's not a huge deal really. He's with the pack now. He's an easy scapegoat but he's not really a reason we are where we are.
It's not a question of a scapegoat. It's a matter of giving two years to an enforcer who was on the downside of his career

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Voros was we were desperate for an Avery. He's not making a ton anyway even if he's got some years. He doesn't really hurt.
Lots of things this team is desperate for. That has to come back to the person who assembles the team. Do we consider it a success when it "doesn't really hurt."

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04-07-2010, 11:31 AM
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The truth is, most of Sather's fantastic trades are a byproduct of terrible asset management in the first place.
And that's the biggest problem. Trades to fix mistakes are no way to move a team forward.

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04-07-2010, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
Based on how I remember the atmosphere when we went out and got redden it was we're good except that we have a bunch of no name guys on D. Where's the number one Dman? Obviously Redden didn't turn out to be that guy, but you can at least see where it kind of made sense at the time. I can definitely see management saying we need a complete Dman to be our top guy and Redden looked that way a few years ago, he just needed a change of scenery. That's the thinking at least.

Kotalik was we were desperate for a big shot on the PP, and this guy also might ignite drury his former teammate when he was most productive. Again in reality it failed but you can appreciate the argument at the time.

Usually teams bids on free agents aren't really public but if there's no interest in a guy he doesn't get any money.

Brashear just quit this year. Don't know why but it's not a huge deal really. He's with the pack now. He's an easy scapegoat but he's not really a reason we are where we are.

Voros was we were desperate for an Avery. He's not making a ton anyway even if he's got some years. He doesn't really hurt.
Yeah, but we took a SIX YEAR 39 MILLION $ GAMBLE. Who the hell says to themself "Hmm, this guy MIGHT work out, let's sign him long term"

Kotalik.. again, a 3 year gamble on a guy who might work AND an NTC on top of that (though he waived it since he'd rather go to calgary then hartford)

Brashear is a horrible contract partly because it's a 35+. If his hit didn't count next year nobody would be talking about him anymore.

Voros isn't really a problem. He's not paid much and can be demoted when there's no longer a need for him

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04-07-2010, 11:32 AM
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Not saying the trade isn't a steal. It was a huge steal.

We gave up something that was negative value (kotalik), something of no value (higgins), and got someone who has a little bit of value (prust), and someone of no value (jokinen)

Reason why i say higgins/jokinen are of no value is because they have bloated contracts, but they're pending UFAs
The Rangers also moved the remaining two years of Kotalik's deal.

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04-07-2010, 11:39 AM
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The Rangers also moved the remaining two years of Kotalik's deal.
Yeah, which is why I'm saying kotalik is negative value. The rest of his contract is a burden

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