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Old
04-07-2010, 02:35 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Alan Jackson View Post
I think part of the reason where some people get their backs up regarding Luongo, is that it seems like the team and the fans have bent over backwards to accomodate this "delicate genius", and he is held to standard of play that he's not been able to meet this season.

We have been told over and over and over again that Luongo is the "Best Goalie In The World", but how many Vezinas has he won? How many times has he been a 1st team All-Star? How much success have his teams had?

Why was he named captain? Is he the most valuable goaltender to his team in the history of the modern NHL?

Bah. I'm just ranting. I really do think that Luongo will turn his gane around once the playoffs start. He has to.
I believe that is also the underlying theme of the Gallagher article.

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04-07-2010, 02:37 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Momesso View Post
There is no justification whatsoever for comparing Dan Cloutier to Roberto Loungo.

Cloutier was never a good goalie. He was made to look good when we had a great team in front of him.
Cloutier's stats with a similar offensive system in place.
01/02
.901%
2.43 GA

02/03
.908&
2.42 GA

03/04
.914 %
2.27 GA

Luongo this year in a similar system?
.912%
2.56 GA

So why can't the comparison be made? Luongo and Cloutier's regular season capabilities aren't as far off as people would like to believe. The difference comes in their playoff performances.
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And he had an affinity for letting in back-breaking goals and never making that big timely save
This is certainly true.

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04-07-2010, 02:38 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Momesso View Post
There is no justification whatsoever for comparing Dan Cloutier to Roberto Loungo.
The comparison is based more upon team play - the WCE Canucks were undone by inconsistent goaltending and the main criticism of Luongo on a currently high powered offensive Canucks' team is that he has been wildly inconsistent and gives up weak goals.

In the post-season that can come back and bite you.

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04-07-2010, 02:44 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Because Luongo, prior to his slump, still had a top 5 Sv% at .921. The whole point is Luongo hasn't been consistent — he had a great season prior this team going on that road trip and has really struggled after the Olympics.

The comparison makes zero sense.
Luongo himself said his poor numbers and performance can be attributed to a more offensive system. A similar system to what Cloutier experienced during his offensive system. So again, why does the comparison make zero sense? Do we get to remove all of Cloutier's bad games to skew his stats, too? Or are slumps not 'real' parts of the season?

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04-07-2010, 02:50 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by FruityPants3 View Post
Luongo himself said his poor numbers and performance can be attributed to a more offensive system. A similar system to what Cloutier experienced during his offensive system. So again, why does the comparison make zero sense? Do we get to remove all of Cloutier's bad games to skew his stats, too? Or are slumps not 'real' parts of the season?
Couple things to note:

PK- what was the PK like then vs. now? Our PK this year has been atrocious.

Second, the 'New NHL' people are always going on about. You know "the game is changed" and all that? More PP's, goals, less interference and obstructions and increased offence?

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04-07-2010, 02:51 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by FruityPants3 View Post
Cloutier's stats with a similar offensive system in place.
01/02
.901%
2.43 GA

02/03
.908&
2.42 GA

03/04
.914 %
2.27 GA

Luongo this year in a similar system?
.912%
2.56 GA

So why can't the comparison be made? Luongo and Cloutier's regular season capabilities aren't as far off as people would like to believe. The difference comes in their playoff performances.
Are you really comparing pre-lockout and post-lockout goaltending numbers straight across?

In 03-04, When Cloutier had a 2.27 GAA, there were 14 goalies who had a 2.25 GAA or better; this year there are 3.

Cloutier never finished in the top 15 in GAA or SV% in his entire career. Compare that to Luongo's rankings over his career.

It's pretty sad when you have to compare one guy's career year to Luongo's bottom of the barrel year to try and make your point, and even then, they're not really equivalent. I guess Martin Straka, Vinny Prospal, and Andy MacDonald are all superior centers to H. Sedin because they all outscored him in Henrik's off year.

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04-07-2010, 02:51 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by FruityPants3 View Post
Cloutier's stats with a similar offensive system in place.
01/02
.901%
2.43 GA

02/03
.908&
2.42 GA

03/04
.914 %
2.27 GA

Luongo this year in a similar system?
.912%
2.56 GA

So why can't the comparison be made? Luongo and Cloutier's regular season capabilities aren't as far off as people would like to believe. The difference comes in their playoff performances.

This is certainly true.
I realize that it seems that those stats gives us the best possible objective comparison, but there's simply too many differences between the teams, the competition, the coaching and the goalies themselves to place enough stock in those numbers as a basis for comparison.

Luongo statistically is having a relatively poor year but again there's no comparison to Cloutier. Cloutier put together a few good years here but his career trajectory is in many ways the opposite of Luongo's.

Some people might take it as a sign to be concerned going into the playoffs, but I'm certainly not. Canuck history (and league history) is littered with instances where regular season success or failure doesn't translate into playoff success/failure.

I say simply that we let his playoff performance (be it good or bad) speak for itself, regardless of how much the "Chicken Littles" out there want to be heard.

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04-07-2010, 02:52 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by FruityPants3 View Post
Luongo himself said his poor numbers and performance can be attributed to a more offensive system. A similar system to what Cloutier experienced during his offensive system. So again, why does the comparison make zero sense? Do we get to remove all of Cloutier's bad games to skew his stats, too? Or are slumps not 'real' parts of the season?
Cloutier didn't have an extensive history of being one of the best goaltenders in the league. Cloutier's greatest year was only as good as Luongo's toughest stretch. Think about that.

Luongo saying his numbers are off because of the system is misleading. He can't say that the defense hasn't been good enough because when he makes the slightest remark about the team not being the 1970's Montreal Canadiens, he's throwing them under the bus apparently.

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Old
04-07-2010, 03:08 PM
  #34
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Cloutier's greatest year was only as good as Luongo's toughest stretch.
It's not "toughest stretch", it's "season as a whole".

Luongo is barely top-20 save percentage this season - that most assuredly is "Cloutier-like". Here's hoping it's a one-off season and not a sign of what is to come for the next 12 years....


Last edited by Dado: 04-07-2010 at 03:19 PM.
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04-07-2010, 03:10 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by VanEric View Post
Cloutier didn't have an extensive history of being one of the best goaltenders in the league. Cloutier's greatest year was only as good as Luongo's toughest stretch. Think about that.

Luongo saying his numbers are off because of the system is misleading. He can't say that the defense hasn't been good enough because when he makes the slightest remark about the team not being the 1970's Montreal Canadiens, he's throwing them under the bus apparently.
Yeah I think the Defence has got to get their heads out of their *****, but I wouldn't mind seeing the entire team play a little stronger in their own zone, I think that would help Luongo greatly.

Gallagher is just looking at it objectively. He is spot on most times, love him or hate him.

I look at all the other fans and reporters and it seems everyone is writing the Canucks off already.

A team that has won the division, scored the most goals in the west, still has a respectable GA, has 6 20+ goal scorers, in reality if Daniel plays 82 games 3 30 goal scorers, An defence that while it has issues is still fairly decent, and for all his issues, Luongo is still one of the best goalies in the west, and would you honestly say Howard, Quick, Nabakov, Niemi, or Anderson would outduel Luongo or that the Canucks could not score more goals on those goalies in a series? Some might say Bryzgalov or Rinne, but can Nashville without their best overall player in Arnott who is concussed score enough goals? Phoenix?

Folks, all things considered, let's hope everyone but us true fans write off the Canucks because when you consider all the factors, this team has the ability to get to the 3rd round.

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Old
04-07-2010, 03:10 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Alan Jackson View Post

Why was he named captain? Is he the most valuable goaltender to his team in the history of the modern NHL?

Bah. I'm just ranting. I really do think that Luongo will turn his gane around once the playoffs start. He has to.
He was named captain to STAY here, pure and simple, and because of that Sedins resigned, and Kesler as well. Is that a small thing? I guess not, Luongo being the captain is the reason these guys are still inte Beautiful Briti****y Columbia

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04-07-2010, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
It's not "toughest stretch", it's "season as a whole".

Luongo is barely top-20 save percentage this season - that most assuredly is "Cloutier-like". Here's hoping it's a on-off season and not a sign of what is to come for the next 12 years....
Does one season make a pattern? I am all for making Lui play better and smarter, but one season and already this is the norm for him? That is exactly what you are implying in your post.

Are you serious? After one off season, this is the norm for 12 years to come?

wow...

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04-07-2010, 03:16 PM
  #38
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...because of a construction in your neighbourhood that made the access difficult...
You have assumed the conclusion you want to reach.

It could be "business is down because I'm just not working hard enough" or "business is down because my competitors have become that much better than me" or "business is down because I'm overworked and can't manage it like I used to" or "business is down because I'm making horse whips in the Automobile Age". Instead, you've simply assumed the least painful coincident indicator is the reason for the downturn -- you may be right, but if you're wrong, you're going to be dead.

Me, I don't run my business that way.

You are of course free to do as you wish with your business.

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04-07-2010, 03:17 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan View Post
Are you serious? After one off season, this is the norm for 12 years to come?
Are you serious? Where did I say that?

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Does one season make a pattern?
Where did I say it did?

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wow...
Indeed.

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04-07-2010, 03:17 PM
  #40
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Are you saying that Canucks were playing a different system until end of January? If you can't see the difference between a goalie playing good-to-average throughout the season with some bad games sprinkled in and a goalie playing great the first half (or slightly more) of the season and badly the second half (or slightly less) then there's nothing more to say.
No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying a goaltender's season includes slumps. We can all make stats look pretty if we are allowed to omit certain stretches to suit our argument. Dan Cloutier had bad stretches, too, why shouldn't those be considered?

The only thing your argument suggests is that Cloutier was a more consistent regular season player (less extreme peaks and valleys).

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04-07-2010, 03:19 PM
  #41
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Its a bit much, bordering on disgusting, to compare Luongo with Cloutier who was jekyll and hyde between the regular season and the playoffs but...it does sell papers (although the Province is still free with a coffee at MacD's).

Roberto has lost his mojo and it goes down when he lets in a weak goal early on. Then he somehow recovers later in the game which is somewhat bizarre.

Personally I think Roberto should worry less about form and more about stopping the puck by being aggressive by challenging shooters (many goals get scored with him back in his net). Its like going on those crazy rollercoasters in the US - you just have to say **** it and just do it!

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04-07-2010, 03:19 PM
  #42
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Are you really comparing pre-lockout and post-lockout goaltending numbers straight across?

In 03-04, When Cloutier had a 2.27 GAA, there were 14 goalies who had a 2.25 GAA or better; this year there are 3.

Cloutier never finished in the top 15 in GAA or SV% in his entire career. Compare that to Luongo's rankings over his career.

It's pretty sad when you have to compare one guy's career year to Luongo's bottom of the barrel year to try and make your point, and even then, they're not really equivalent. I guess Martin Straka, Vinny Prospal, and Andy MacDonald are all superior centers to H. Sedin because they all outscored him in Henrik's off year.
Whoa, I'm not saying they are equal or that Cloutier was better. The assertion was that we cannot compare past goaltenders to our current goaltending overlord. I think that's completely absurd. Of course we can. Here are some stats. Of course there are some nuances to consider and discuss, but holy crap, are you guys that insecure that you can't even entertain the discussion?

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04-07-2010, 03:22 PM
  #43
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I think part of the reason where some people get their backs up regarding Luongo, is that it seems like the team and the fans have bent over backwards to accomodate this "delicate genius", and he is held to standard of play that he's not been able to meet this season.

We have been told over and over and over again that Luongo is the "Best Goalie In The World", but how many Vezinas has he won? How many times has he been a 1st team All-Star? How much success have his teams had?

Why was he named captain? Is he the most valuable goaltender to his team in the history of the modern NHL?

Bah. I'm just ranting. I really do think that Luongo will turn his gane around once the playoffs start. He has to.
He was named Captain because he was the one who displayed the best leadership qualities among the players who were here. It was not a frivolous decision on management's part nor was it made to make him re-sign. I doubt that played more than maybe 1% in his decision to sign here.

Since he's been the Captain, they've won back to back division titles and we're about to find out if they can build off last season's playoff experience. He's obviously doing something right in the room.

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04-07-2010, 03:22 PM
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He was named captain to STAY here, pure and simple, and because of that Sedins resigned, and Kesler as well. Is that a small thing? I guess not, Luongo being the captain is the reason these guys are still inte Beautiful Briti****y Columbia
If Luongo needed to be named captain in order to stay here, it speaks to his character. Goalies aren't named captains. Why does he need to be treated as though is "above" the rest of the team? No, I think he was honoured to be named captain, but I think he would have signed regardless. I suppose we'll never know.

More to the point, the fact that he accepted the captaincy means that he instantly became the face of the franchise, it's leader. It's his resposibility to live up to that.

I don't think we need to walk on egg shells when it comes to discussing Luongo's play. He hasn't been good enough.

But let's be honest - the Canucks have won the division, and are in a good position to make a playoff run here. Luongo may have had his rough spots, but he's been good enough to get the Canucks this far. Yes, his game has slipped badly, but there's no reason to think he can't get it back.

I fully expect Luongo to be better in the playoffs. He doesn't even need to be spectacular. He just needs to give his team a chance. If Luongo is solid, if the defense can keep it together, there's no reason why the Vancouver Canucks cannot be a very good team in the playoffs.

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04-07-2010, 03:22 PM
  #45
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You're deluding yourself if you think that half great season, half bad season is not relevant in a statistical discussion.
It's relevant in SOME discussions.

You'd get a lot more traction in your conversations if you actually paid attention to what people ARE saying instead of constantly jumping to ludicrous end-game conclusions that NOBODY is saying.

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04-07-2010, 03:22 PM
  #46
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Luongo statistically is having a relatively poor year but again there's no comparison to Cloutier. Cloutier put together a few good years here but his career trajectory is in many ways the opposite of Luongo's.
This is true. Statistically, Cloutier got better every year with the Canucks while Luongo, more or less, has gotten worse.

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04-07-2010, 03:23 PM
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Yeah I think the Defence has got to get their heads out of their *****, but I wouldn't mind seeing the entire team play a little stronger in their own zone, I think that would help Luongo greatly.

Gallagher is just looking at it objectively. He is spot on most times, love him or hate him.

I look at all the other fans and reporters and it seems everyone is writing the Canucks off already.

A team that has won the division, scored the most goals in the west, still has a respectable GA, has 6 20+ goal scorers, in reality if Daniel plays 82 games 3 30 goal scorers, An defence that while it has issues is still fairly decent, and for all his issues, Luongo is still one of the best goalies in the west, and would you honestly say Howard, Quick, Nabakov, Niemi, or Anderson would outduel Luongo or that the Canucks could not score more goals on those goalies in a series? Some might say Bryzgalov or Rinne, but can Nashville without their best overall player in Arnott who is concussed score enough goals? Phoenix?

Folks, all things considered, let's hope everyone but us true fans write off the Canucks because when you consider all the factors, this team has the ability to get to the 3rd round.
In Britain we got the Colorado feed for the last match. During the match their commentators (who were shouting hysterically and hilariously whenever the puck went near Anderson during overtime) mentioned that this year's Canucks have the 2nd most 3rd period comebacks in a certain amount of historical time. I'm not sure how long they went back, and I can't be bothered to watch it again, but I was very surprised.

I'm not sure where you'd find that stat. In any case, it is a sign of a team that is willing to dig deep and fight to the last. Sounds a good recipe for a team that will go deep.


Anyway, Cloutier comparisons are way over the top. Cloutier was barely passable during the regular season, but his career playoff numbers were pathetic. 0.872 sv%

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04-07-2010, 03:23 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
The comparison is based more upon team play - the WCE Canucks were undone by inconsistent goaltending and the main criticism of Luongo on a currently high powered offensive Canucks' team is that he has been wildly inconsistent and gives up weak goals.

In the post-season that can come back and bite you.

If Luongo plays like Dan Cloutier in the playoffs, yes he may be a liability and it can hurt the team's chances. If that's what you're saying then, yes, I agree - who wouldn't?

But to speculate that mediocre play for a regular season stretch (with unique surrounding circumstances - like the Olympics) will translate into mediocre playoff performance is speculation that goes against what Luongo has consistently proven in his career (ie playing well when it matters). My opinion is that it's just a bunch of Chicken Littles looking for someone to cry about.

When you look at this from Gallagher's perspective, it's of no risk to him. If Luongo has a great playoff, no one remembers his article. But if he falters then Gallagher will get a chance for his "i told you so routine" and then ***** all summer about how horrible a contract the Canucks got 'albatrossed' with (as if nobody can ever have a bounceback year).

Let the playoff performance speak for itself.

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04-07-2010, 03:26 PM
  #49
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If Luongo plays like Dan Cloutier in the playoffs, yes he may be a liability and it can hurt the team's chances. If that's what you're saying then, yes, I agree - who wouldn't?

But to speculate that mediocre play for a regular season stretch (with unique surrounding circumstances - like the Olympics) will translate into mediocre playoff performance is speculation that goes against what Luongo has consistently proven in his career (ie playing well when it matters). My opinion is that it's just a bunch of Chicken Littles looking for someone to cry about.

When you look at this from Gallagher's perspective, it's of no risk to him. If Luongo has a great playoff, no one remembers his article. But if he falters then Gallagher will get a chance for his "i told you so routine" and then ***** all summer about how horrible a contract the Canucks got 'albatrossed' with (as if nobody can ever have a bounceback year).

Let the playoff performance speak for itself.
Let us not forget the "Tony Talk" from earlier in the season where he said the Canucks would be lucky to make the playoffs. He had written the season off in November.

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04-07-2010, 03:29 PM
  #50
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But to speculate that...
Hey Momesso - I would phrase it as - through his long-term play Luongo has earned the benefit of the doubt and, while there is certainly reason for concern, there is no reason to *expect* a playoff meltdown, and many reasons to *expect* him to get his **** together when the playoff puck drops.

I think that puts us more or less in agreement...?

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