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Old
04-07-2010, 02:31 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Nobody is omitting stretches. You're deluding yourself if you think that half great season, half bad season is not relevant in a statistical discussion. I never even said that we should ignore the second half of the season, what I said is that in a statistical discussion like this it would be relevant to acknowledge the differences between Cloutier's best season and Luongo's worst season.

Depending on the approach you took this could reflect negatively on Luongo, but it still wouldn't make their seasons comparable not in any meaningful way.
Of course it's relevant, lots of players get on nice streaks and you can capture that section and project it into an argument for a strong season. You could look at Raymond earlier in the year and say he's on pace for 40 goals. Great. But it's more relevant to reflect on his season as a whole.

So if you want to simplify, Luongo had a really good half, and a really bad half, and overall an average season.

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04-07-2010, 02:33 PM
  #52
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So if you want to simplify, Luongo had a really good half, and a really bad half, and overall an average season.
Agree, and would add that the team's success in the playoffs will determine whether "we" remember this season mostly by the good half or the bad half.

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04-07-2010, 02:39 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by FruityPants3 View Post
Of course it's relevant, lots of players get on nice streaks and you can capture that section and project it into an argument for a strong season. You could look at Raymond earlier in the year and say he's on pace for 40 goals. Great. But it's more relevant to reflect on his season as a whole.
Never, once, have I tried to suggest this season is anything other than average (with this latest stretch being bad). I simply pointed out why I believe the two seasons aren't comparable and I still believe that.

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04-07-2010, 02:42 PM
  #54
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I'm not ready to lose faith in Luongo until I see how he performs in the playoffs. As far as I'm concerned, all this regular season stuff means squat, especially when the team cruised to a division title for the second straight year. The truth of it is, if Luongo plays the post season the way he's played since the Olympic break we'll be out in the first round. However, until he actually does that, I'm not going to waste any energy worrying about how he looks in his last few starts in games that mean absolutely nothing.

Perhaps he just needs to go to the Eddie Shore goaltending school and get that noose tied around his neck. I think he was on his belly for half the game last night.

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04-07-2010, 02:51 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Are you serious? Where did I say that?
Where did I say it did?
Indeed.
You said:
Quote:
Luongo is barely top-20 save percentage this season - that most assuredly is "Cloutier-like". Here's hoping it's a on-off season and not a sign of what is to come for the next 12 years....
Clearly your tone is not, he will snap out of it, but this is possibly the goalie we are stuck with for 12 years, basing your opinion on one "off" season. I would think his prior seasons are a far better indicator of what we will get for 12 seasons...

So you did say it... again... wow

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04-07-2010, 02:52 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by FruityPants3 View Post
Whoa, I'm not saying they are equal or that Cloutier was better. The assertion was that we cannot compare past goaltenders to our current goaltending overlord. I think that's completely absurd. Of course we can. Here are some stats. Of course there are some nuances to consider and discuss, but holy crap, are you guys that insecure that you can't even entertain the discussion?
It's an absurd discussion and it's no different than the stupid cheap shots that the Sedins have taken over the years when they struggled. Whenever they hit a rough spot people would come out of the woodwork and come up with outlandish claims and call them "the best 2nd line in the league" or the "Sedin sisters". It's almost as if they enjoyed their struggles because it gave them something to whine about. We're seeing much the same thing with Luongo now.

Luongo isn't playing well, he knows it, the team knows it, everyone knows it, but it's a slump, and all players go through it. If we're just focusing on his poor last 20 games (and really that's all that it's been, 21 games ago he was at the tail end of a 7 game winning streak and a January where he went into the final game with a .928 SV%), then fine, he's open to criticism. However, no one seems to be interested in placing his play in any kind of context, especially regarding other past and present Olympic performers. Instead they insist upon making hyperbolic claims and comparisons and criticizing his personality or ability to even handle his job. What's worse, people are creating revisionist history, such as your claim that he's gotten worse every year as a Canuck (he finished top 5 in GAA and SV% last year, how many goalies can claim that this season? 2 by my count).

Few seem to be interested in a sober, rational discussion about Luongo and the team's play recently. I suppose many people are heavily emotionally invested in the team's fortunes and that leads them to make rash judgments when someone's not playing well, but people just need to relax and adopt a wait and see approach.

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04-07-2010, 02:57 PM
  #57
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I just wanted to add as well that after Bieksa made that horrible mistake, look at how he attoned for it by catching Duchene!?!

My point is I think the Defence needs to play with more urgency, more purpose, a little more nastiness, and certainly smarter. No stupid passes, no trying to feather passes through an opponent, but off the boards and down into the zone when on the point.

I can almost guarantee should the Canucks D simplify their game, Luongo's numbers and the teams success will increase greatly. I think their D is just playing so sloppy right now, as Larscheid said, every mistake is ending up in the net.

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Old
04-07-2010, 03:04 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan View Post
Clearly...
Well apparently not so clearly, since you're reading all kinds of stuff into it that isn't there.

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So you did say it... again... wow
Nope. All you provided was your own biases and filters, not one single quote where I said anything like you claimed I said.

For the 800th time - hopefully it'll be crystal clear this time - the high-odds expectation here is for Luongo to get his **** together for the playoffs. It's not a certainty, there is plenty of reason for concern -- but given his track record the better bet is that he comes through with a quality playoff performance.

Hope that helps...

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04-07-2010, 03:05 PM
  #59
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...but it's a slump...
That's an assumption, not a fact. Probably a safe one, but an assumption none the less.

We won't know for sure until he actually comes out of it.

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04-07-2010, 03:06 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
It's an absurd discussion and it's no different than the stupid cheap shots that the Sedins have taken over the years when they struggled. Whenever they hit a rough spot people would come out of the woodwork and come up with outlandish claims and call them "the best 2nd line in the league" or the "Sedin sisters". It's almost as if they enjoyed their struggles because it gave them something to whine about. We're seeing much the same thing with Luongo now.

Luongo isn't playing well, he knows it, the team knows it, everyone knows it, but it's a slump, and all players go through it. If we're just focusing on his poor last 20 games (and really that's all that it's been, 21 games ago he was at the tail end of a 7 game winning streak and a January where he went into the final game with a .928 SV%), then fine, he's open to criticism. However, no one seems to be interested in placing his play in any kind of context, especially regarding other past and present Olympic performers. Instead they insist upon making hyperbolic claims and comparisons and criticizing his personality or ability to even handle his job. What's worse, people are creating revisionist history, such as your claim that he's gotten worse every year as a Canuck (he finished top 5 in GAA and SV% last year, how many goalies can claim that this season? 2 by my count).

Few seem to be interested in a sober, rational discussion about Luongo and the team's play recently. I suppose many people are heavily emotionally invested in the team's fortunes and that leads them to make rash judgments when someone's not playing well, but people just need to relax and adopt a wait and see approach.
To me, it's actually less about Luongo than it is revisionism about Cloutier. Cloutier was a pretty solid regular season goaltender. Not elite. Not terrible. Just solid. But he was a complete meltdown in the playoffs and that will forever be his legacy (and hey, rightly so).

So when I hear people say that this is an absurd discussion, I have to chuckle. We are talking about one goaltender who was pretty solid in the regular season and another who is considered the best in the game, making three times as much money in a cap era. That's all fine, but the regular season gap is simply not as huge as people would like to believe. I'm not saying it's not there, but I would say game to game Cloutier gave a more consistent contribution than Luongo who seems to perform on a teeter totter of extremes.

And I'm not picking on Luongo because of this poor stretch. I've made the same argument in years past. As for the comment about getting worse, Luongo has never reached the same level of goaltending he did in 2006/2007. Is that up for debate?

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04-07-2010, 03:13 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Well apparently not so clearly, since you're reading all kinds of stuff into it that isn't there.



Nope. All you provided was your own biases and filters, not one single quote where I said anything like you claimed I said.

For the 800th time - hopefully it'll be crystal clear this time - the high-odds expectation here is for Luongo to get his **** together for the playoffs. It's not a certainty, there is plenty of reason for concern -- but given his track record the better bet is that he comes through with a quality playoff performance.

Hope that helps...
Yes that does. That is far more clear because you clarified what you said above is far different from:

Quote:
Luongo is barely top-20 save percentage this season - that most assuredly is "Cloutier-like". Here's hoping it's a on-off season and not a sign of what is to come for the next 12 years....
You cannot tell me that those are the same thing. Those are clearly 2 different statements.

I'm not trying to pick on you, just clarifying what you said.

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04-07-2010, 03:14 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
That's an assumption, not a fact. Probably a safe one, but an assumption none the less.

We won't know for sure until he actually comes out of it.
I wager the Slump or poor play goes away with the D playing alot better. Has to be said.

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04-07-2010, 03:14 PM
  #63
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And I'm not picking on Luongo because of this poor stretch. I've made the same argument in years past. As for the comment about getting worse, Luongo has never reached the same level of goaltending he did in 2006/2007. Is that up for debate?
Can I expect the same criticism of H. Sedin if he "only" gets 90 points in the next couple of years?

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04-07-2010, 03:16 PM
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Can I expect the same criticism of H. Sedin if he "only" gets 90 points in the next couple of years?
The "equivalent" would be for Henrik to drop to ~73 points next season. I'm pretty sure if that happens, "he's peaked!" discussions would be running rampant on HF and elsewhere.

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04-07-2010, 03:23 PM
  #65
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To me, it's actually less about Luongo than it is revisionism about Cloutier. Cloutier was a pretty solid regular season goaltender. Not elite. Not terrible. Just solid. But he was a complete meltdown in the playoffs and that will forever be his legacy (and hey, rightly so).

So when I hear people say that this is an absurd discussion, I have to chuckle. We are talking about one goaltender who was pretty solid in the regular season and another who is considered the best in the game, making three times as much money in a cap era. That's all fine, but the regular season gap is simply not as huge as people would like to believe. I'm not saying it's not there, but I would say game to game Cloutier gave a more consistent contribution than Luongo who seems to perform on a teeter totter of extremes.

And I'm not picking on Luongo because of this poor stretch. I've made the same argument in years past. As for the comment about getting worse, Luongo has never reached the same level of goaltending he did in 2006/2007. Is that up for debate?
That's either an absurd statement or you didn't watch the Canucks in the Cloutier era.

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04-07-2010, 03:24 PM
  #66
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Roberto Luongo just needs to keep it simple. His mindset needs to be stop the puck, not put on the show, or carry the team. The offense is good enough that if he just plays solid and reduces the number of bad goals, Vancouver will go far in the playoffs.

He seems to be backing into his net alot more these days, and going down a lot sooner. During that portion of the season when he was playing really well, he got into position and kept his body upright and challenged the shooter.

Hopefully he just gets back to the basics, because that's what made him so good: his sound positional play.

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04-07-2010, 03:26 PM
  #67
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The "equivalent" would be for Henrik to drop to ~73 points next season. I'm pretty sure if that happens, "he's peaked!" discussions would be running rampant on HF and elsewhere.
Still, he would have never reached the same level of play as in 09-10, so I guess the logic states that he'd have regressed every year.

And yes, if people start questioning the Sedins' abilities as players in an otherwise pretty good year due to a horrible 20 game stretch that knocks their numbers down, they are out to lunch.

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04-07-2010, 03:30 PM
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That's either an absurd statement or you didn't watch the Canucks in the Cloutier era.
Cloutier played very well at times, and that shouldn't be taken away from him. To trumpet his consistency as his edge over Luongo though???

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04-07-2010, 03:56 PM
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He was named Captain because he was the one who displayed the best leadership qualities among the players who were here. It was not a frivolous decision on management's part nor was it made to make him re-sign. I doubt that played more than maybe 1% in his decision to sign here.

Since he's been the Captain, they've won back to back division titles and we're about to find out if they can build off last season's playoff experience. He's obviously doing something right in the room.
Good post, and I agree. I find it funny that when a team lacks success (however you want to define success) fans tend to start blaming the leadership group associated with that team.

And yet if a team has success (like the Canucks have had so far this year) fans can then NOT give credit to the leadership group as well -in this case Luongo.

Your captain isn't going to lead you to the promise land and have a career season statistically every year.

I remember a lot of people questioning Naslund's leadership when the team would miss the playoffs. If it's any of those same people who are questioning Luongo's leadership now then you have to give your head a shake.

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04-07-2010, 03:58 PM
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Can I expect the same criticism of H. Sedin if he "only" gets 90 points in the next couple of years?
I will say he regressed from this season, sure. Dado makes a better comparable.

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That's either an absurd statement or you didn't watch the Canucks in the Cloutier era.
The implied qualification is regular season. Which I stand by. Less dramatic swings with Cloutier in net in my recollection. He stole his fair share of games, and was bad at times, but not as wild a fluctuation from best to worst game to game as I've seen in Luongo.

Playoffs I've stated several times in this thread is a completely diffeent story.

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04-07-2010, 03:59 PM
  #71
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That's an assumption, not a fact. Probably a safe one, but an assumption none the less.

We won't know for sure until he actually comes out of it.
And if he never does then it is just the downward spiral of his career?

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04-07-2010, 04:00 PM
  #72
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If Luongo can find his 2006-07 form then the Canucks have the chance to go on along run. This version of Luongo and the Canucks will be lucky to make it out of the first round. If they play Detroit operating like this - YIKES.
Yeah, Lidstrom might get a goal from the red line or something.

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04-07-2010, 04:01 PM
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I will say he regressed from this season, sure. Dado makes a better comparable.



The implied qualification is regular season. Which I stand by. Less dramatic swings with Cloutier in net in my recollection. He stole his fair share of games, and was bad at times, but not as wild a fluctuation from best to worst game to game as I've seen in Luongo.
Your recollection isn't very good. Luongo's only had fluctuations for a couple months.

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04-07-2010, 04:10 PM
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I think the captaincy has become a distraction for Luongo. I really think Gillis, Vigneault, and Luongo need to sit down over the summer and pass on the captaincy to a guy like Kesler.

Losing the C doesn't mean Luongo isn't going to be the team's leader anymore, he'll still have the same role in the locker room.

I feel the captaincy has put a lot of expectation and pressure on Luongo's shoulders. There's the expectation every night that since this is his team; he has to carry it every night, and I think that pressure is getting to him. The thing is, he doesn't have to carry this team. He finally has a capable team in front of him; we're second in league scoring. So as such, the pressure on him needs to be dialed back.

Pass the captaincy onto Kesler in the offseason (can't do it now obviously; it would just become a bigger distraction before the playoffs), ease back Luongo's media responsibilities a bit, ease back his playing time a bit, and I think he'll be fine.

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04-07-2010, 04:22 PM
  #75
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I think the captaincy has become a distraction for Luongo. I really think Gillis, Vigneault, and Luongo need to sit down over the summer and pass on the captaincy to a guy like Kesler.

Losing the C doesn't mean Luongo isn't going to be the team's leader anymore, he'll still have the same role in the locker room.

I feel the captaincy has put a lot of expectation and pressure on Luongo's shoulders. There's the expectation every night that since this is his team; he has to carry it every night, and I think that pressure is getting to him. The thing is, he doesn't have to carry this team. He finally has a capable team in front of him; we're second in league scoring. So as such, the pressure on him needs to be dialed back.

Pass the captaincy onto Kesler in the offseason (can't do it now obviously; it would just become a bigger distraction before the playoffs), ease back Luongo's media responsibilities a bit, ease back his playing time a bit, and I think he'll be fine.
Why wasn't the captaincy an issue last season when he had one of the best years of his career? He was top 5 in GAA and SV%, had one of the best winning % in the league, had 9 shutouts in 54 games, and finished 4th in Vezina voting (only one 2nd place vote behind #2 finisher Steve Mason).

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