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Game 80 | Columbus Blue Jackets @ Detroit Red Wings | 7:30 PM EST | FS-D (HD) |

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Old
04-08-2010, 12:16 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Because you say so. Good to see you've been taking HD's correspondence course.

The game last night was close because Lilja and Ericsson played so poorly. Lebda has never had a game that bad, so it stands to reason that it wouldn't have been as close with him in there.

Lilja's water carriers can dismiss the facts all they want, but facts are facts - Lebda has never had a game as bad as Lilja's game last night.

Ken and Mick are shameless water carriers for the guy. They put up a graphic last night that showed the PK before and after Lilja's return to the lineup and how it's higher with him in the lineup. Taken completely out of context and ignoring the fact that the PK was lights-out for several weeks prior to Lilja coming back and his return had no effect on the PK. Take out the first 6 weeks of the season when the PK was a mess and the numbers haven't changed at all with Lilja back in the lineup.
Lebda is the most guarded defensemen on the entire team. His spots are picked and he's hardly ever on the ice during any crucial situations. Baby gloves should be his nickname. Lilja could suck, I don't really care but the notion that there is some comparison between how the two players can be used is hilarious.

Lebda doesn't have games like that because the coaching staff doesn't allow it. Lilja's poor games are magnified because of who he plays against.

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04-08-2010, 01:03 PM
  #252
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Lebda is the most guarded defensemen on the entire team. His spots are picked and he's hardly ever on the ice during any crucial situations. Baby gloves should be his nickname. Lilja could suck, I don't really care but the notion that there is some comparison between how the two players can be used is hilarious.

Lebda doesn't have games like that because the coaching staff doesn't allow it. Lilja's poor games are magnified because of who he plays against.
Lebda is a good ES defenseman. Lilja's forte is supposed to be the PK. If you could put the two together in one body, you'd have a pretty decent #5 D.

Lilly is best when he has to move the least, hence his PK role. He mainly has to skate 3-4 ft laterally, and about 2-3 up or back along an imaginary line that's drawn across the top of the crease. Then his size and shot blocking skills are a true asset. Get him moving out of that zone, and his size, lack of speed and lack of positional sense are evident.

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04-08-2010, 01:10 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Lebda is a good ES defenseman. Lilja's forte is supposed to be the PK. If you could put the two together in one body, you'd have a pretty decent #5 D.
So what you're saying is Lilja's not a "decent #5 D" right now? Give me a break, Fugu.

Lilja was great in the '07 playoffs (aside from his infamous game 5 gaffe...people forget he was the Wings lone goalscorer that game, though) playing in a top four role. He's more than capable as a number five.

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04-08-2010, 01:42 PM
  #254
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So what you're saying is Lilja's not a "decent #5 D" right now? Give me a break, Fugu.

Lilja was great in the '07 playoffs (aside from his infamous game 5 gaffe...people forget he was the Wings lone goalscorer that game, though) playing in a top four role. He's more than capable as a number five.

Lilja has never been consistently great at anything. Are you really going to go back to 2007 as the example of Lilja's greatness? If he was that great in 2007, why would Holland pursue Stuart in the off-season and then trade a 2nd round pick + to get Stu? The team tried Lilja in the top four. The experiment failed. He was relegated to 6/7 duty when Cheli was moving down the time line.

He's capable as a top five. He's just not as good at ES as he is on the PK. In fact, I think against the right line-matching he's an absolute liability in that spot. Yesterday's game is a good example if you consider what the other team was trying to exploit.

Why is any attempt to dissect his game into good/bad pieces automatically mean we have to say it's all good or all bad? He has weaknesses. Let's start by having YOU name those weaknesses instead of having me do it.

What do you see as his weaknesses? Once identified, if you're the opposition coach, how do you exploit that-- specifically?

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04-08-2010, 01:44 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by arice89 View Post
So what you're saying is Lilja's not a "decent #5 D" right now? Give me a break, Fugu.

Lilja was great in the '07 playoffs (aside from his infamous game 5 gaffe...people forget he was the Wings lone goalscorer that game, though) playing in a top four role. He's more than capable as a number five.
Lilja isn't "good". I like what was said about the PK being his forte and he's a great shot blocker. Other than that...

One of his problems is that he's inconsistent. He'll play a decent couple of games and then play a couple awful ones.

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04-08-2010, 02:25 PM
  #256
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Lilja didn't even play for an entire year for goodness sake. His cap hit is only $1.25 million. He's a great D-man for his role and price.

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04-08-2010, 02:46 PM
  #257
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Lilja didn't even play for an entire year for goodness sake. His cap hit is only $1.25 million. He's a great D-man for his role and price.

That's not the question. Why does he get a free pass when other players get Corsi'ed to death and have +/- thrown around as if it were the only measure? Lebda gets paid half as much? Does that mean he gets to make twice the mistakes before you're up in arms?

He's a good D man for his price. A great price would be $750K for a #5. $1.25m is about market price.

The fact he missed most of the year to injury isn't really significant in the context of the argument ARice introduced.

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04-08-2010, 02:52 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Because you say so. Good to see you've been taking HD's correspondence course.

The game last night was close because Lilja and Ericsson played so poorly. Lebda has never had a game that bad, so it stands to reason that it wouldn't have been as close with him in there.

Lilja's water carriers can dismiss the facts all they want, but facts are facts - Lebda has never had a game as bad as Lilja's game last night.

Ken and Mick are shameless water carriers for the guy. They put up a graphic last night that showed the PK before and after Lilja's return to the lineup and how it's higher with him in the lineup. Taken completely out of context and ignoring the fact that the PK was lights-out for several weeks prior to Lilja coming back and his return had no effect on the PK. Take out the first 6 weeks of the season when the PK was a mess and the numbers haven't changed at all with Lilja back in the lineup.
Has Lilja ever been sat on the bench for an entire game simply because they needed an extra body but didn't want to risk him out there?

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04-08-2010, 02:56 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Lebda is the most guarded defensemen on the entire team. His spots are picked and he's hardly ever on the ice during any crucial situations. Baby gloves should be his nickname. Lilja could suck, I don't really care but the notion that there is some comparison between how the two players can be used is hilarious.

Lebda doesn't have games like that because the coaching staff doesn't allow it. Lilja's poor games are magnified because of who he plays against.
Lebda plays a lot at even strength when he's in the lineup. Lilja plays a lot of PK, where you don't get a minus when you're scored on.

Lebda has chewed up a lot of playoff minutes at even strength the past few playoffs, and it wasn't all against the other team's worst players. The guy gets **** on around here and it makes absolutely no sense.

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04-08-2010, 03:26 PM
  #260
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Has Lilja ever been sat on the bench for an entire game simply because they needed an extra body but didn't want to risk him out there?

I think he has been benched. He's been here for a few years though, and the options have changed.

Lebda doesn't deserve being kept out of the line up right now. His play has not been that bad. Statistically, Ericsson has been the worst defender by far, yet he's getting the minutes right now. You tell me what's wrong with Lebda then? That he doesn't have E's potential, to be realized in 2-3 yrs from now?

When do you think Lebda's play has been that bad, and that clearly it was him? I know he was off to a bad start (so was the entire team). He was benched, they still sucked.

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04-08-2010, 03:29 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Lilja has never been consistently great at anything. Are you really going to go back to 2007 as the example of Lilja's greatness? If he was that great in 2007, why would Holland pursue Stuart in the off-season and then trade a 2nd round pick + to get Stu? The team tried Lilja in the top four. The experiment failed. He was relegated to 6/7 duty when Cheli was moving down the time line.
The only reason Lilja was ever in the top four was because of injury. He was horrible in the '06 playoffs. He was excellent in the '07 playoffs. The Wings knew he couldn't sustain that kind of play over a whole year... he's a bottom pairing defenseman/PK specialist. Stuart's a known top four guy.

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He's capable as a top five. He's just not as good at ES as he is on the PK. In fact, I think against the right line-matching he's an absolute liability in that spot. Yesterday's game is a good example if you consider what the other team was trying to exploit.
I agree for the most part. I don't know if I'd call him a "liability," but yeah, he screws up sometimes. Bottom pairing guys screw up -- but so do most defensemen not named Lidstrom (last night's game being one of the few exceptions in his career). Kronwall screws up. Rafalski screws up. Stuart screws up. But they are all valuable pieces because they bring something special to the table, just like Lilja does.

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Why is any attempt to dissect his game into good/bad pieces automatically mean we have to say it's all good or all bad? He has weaknesses. Let's start by having YOU name those weaknesses instead of having me do it.

What do you see as his weaknesses? Once identified, if you're the opposition coach, how do you exploit that-- specifically?
Ok. He occasionally gets out of position, makes bad passes, and isn't very mobile. That's why he's a number five defenseman. Again, though, the above applies to a ton of NHL defensemen.

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Lebda has chewed up a lot of playoff minutes at even strength the past few playoffs, and it wasn't all against the other team's worst players. The guy gets **** on around here and it makes absolutely no sense.
It does make sense. The majority of those minutes are spent with him pinned in his own zone. At least Lilja does something well. Lebda's a warm body with good speed (that doesn't turn into anything).

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04-08-2010, 03:39 PM
  #262
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The game last night was close because Lilja and Ericsson played so poorly. Lebda has never had a game that bad, so it stands to reason that it wouldn't have been as close with him in there.
Because you say so? Holy revisionist history, Batman. Just because you scanned Lebda's game log and found an absence of -3s does not mean he's never had a game that bad, unless you are actually using single-game +/- alone as a measuring tool, which, frankly, demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of hockey. In fact, Lebda, for all his consistent mediocrity, has had 3 or 4 stretches in his career where he has been just plain awful, and has seen benchings as a result of a couple of those. He's had plenty of games just as bad, if not worse.

I guess if it makes you feel better, you can label those of us on the board who support Lilja over Lebda as his water carriers. And Ken and Mick as his water carriers. And Mike Babcock as his water carrier. And Ken Holland as his water carrier. If that makes you feel better

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04-08-2010, 03:40 PM
  #263
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I think Lilja is OK as long as his role is limited and he isn't counted on for essential minutes. Remember, he did cost us the Anaheim series in 07 and it haunts me to this day.

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04-08-2010, 03:46 PM
  #264
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I think Lilja is OK as long as his role is limited and he isn't counted on for essential minutes. Remember, he did cost us the Anaheim series in 07 and it haunts me to this day.
Hardly. He had one bad turnover. He was also the only Wing to score a goal that game.

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04-08-2010, 03:47 PM
  #265
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The only reason Lilja was ever in the top four was because of injury. He was horrible in the '06 playoffs. He was excellent in the '07 playoffs. The Wings knew he couldn't sustain that kind of play over a whole year... he's a bottom pairing defenseman/PK specialist. Stuart's a known top four guy.


I agree for the most part. I don't know if I'd call him a "liability," but yeah, he screws up sometimes. Bottom pairing guys screw up -- but so do most defensemen not named Lidstrom (last night's game being one of the few exceptions in his career). Kronwall screws up. Rafalski screws up. Stuart screws up. But they are all valuable pieces because they bring something special to the table, just like Lilja does.



Ok. He occasionally gets out of position, makes bad passes, and isn't very mobile. That's why he's a number five defenseman. Again, though, the above applies to a ton of NHL defensemen.


It does make sense. The majority of those minutes are spent with him pinned in his own zone. At least Lilja does something well. Lebda's a warm body with good speed (that doesn't turn into anything).

Namely the PK. I think Lebda is better than Lilja at ES. That's how this entire round got started, me saying if you could put Lilja's PK skills together with Lebda's ES play, you'd have a far better defenseman. It's okay for us to criticize both guys, for what strengths and weaknesses each possesses.

Yes, the problem is that they're bottom pairing guys, and I don't think that Lilja is always the better ES option than Lebda. Heaton's starter on this was pointing out how Lebda is treated with kid gloves because he doesn't play the special teams.... Well, yes, but not all defensemen will be good at ES and then a special teams set up. Given that he's paid half of what the #5 gets, I'd say he's more than earned his money. Yet, I don't get why the expectations for the 6/7 guy who earns a paltry 600-ish K per year is as scrutinized here as it has been. It seems the standard for him is far higher.

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04-08-2010, 03:48 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Lebda is a good ES defenseman. Lilja's forte is supposed to be the PK. If you could put the two together in one body, you'd have a pretty decent #5 D.
Helps when Lebda is playing against other team's 3rd and 4th lines.

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Namely the PK. I think Lebda is better than Lilja at ES. That's how this entire round got started, me saying if you could put Lilja's PK skills together with Lebda's ES play, you'd have a far better defenseman. It's okay for us to criticize both guys, for what strengths and weaknesses each possesses.
Thats because they both are suited for those situations. Lebda's game is about speed and north-south action. During ES, he's more inept to being pushed up the ice or back down the ice rather then have to worry about teams setting stuff up and him having to play pure positional defense. Whereas Lilja is slow but with his size he's able to play positional games better, thus why he's better suited on the PK then Lebda or even guys like Rafalski. His frame forces opposing teams to make poor decisions or to just wind up and shoot at him.

I agree with the fact that atleast Lilja does something well and thats shot blocking and PK. Lebda cant do either. Lebda is a dumbass with the puck. You could be the fastest player in the world without a doubt but if your hockey IQ or vision is piss poor, you got Dandenault/Lebda. It sucks.

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04-08-2010, 03:51 PM
  #267
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Because you say so? Holy revisionist history, Batman. Just because you scanned Lebda's game log and found an absence of -3s does not mean he's never had a game that bad, unless you are actually using single-game +/- alone as a measuring tool, which, frankly, demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of hockey. In fact, Lebda, for all his consistent mediocrity, has had 3 or 4 stretches in his career where he has been just plain awful, and has seen benchings as a result of a couple of those. He's had plenty of games just as bad, if not worse.

I guess if it makes you feel better, you can label those of us on the board who support Lilja over Lebda as his water carriers. And Ken and Mick as his water carriers. And Mike Babcock as his water carrier. And Ken Holland as his water carrier. If that makes you feel better
Has Lilja had bad stretches, at least to a similar extent to Lebda's?


Just like my question above, do you think your expectations for Lebda are higher than they are for Lilja? I do get this impression that they're held to similar standards. The "only" issue I do have with that is that Lilja's standard has to be higher, because once someone brings up that he's reasonably priced at $1.25m, you know the retort has to be Barty's salary being half.

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04-08-2010, 04:08 PM
  #268
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Ken and Mick are shameless water carriers for the guy. They put up a graphic last night that showed the PK before and after Lilja's return to the lineup and how it's higher with him in the lineup. Taken completely out of context and ignoring the fact that the PK was lights-out for several weeks prior to Lilja coming back and his return had no effect on the PK. Take out the first 6 weeks of the season when the PK was a mess and the numbers haven't changed at all with Lilja back in the lineup.
I missed the graphic last night, but let's look at this more closely. With Lilja in the lineup (18 games), the Wings PK is 89.6%. In the 18 games prior to Lilja's return, the Wings PK was 84.5%, a difference of 5.1%. Seems like a difference to me.

And besides the numbers, any casual observer can see how well Lilja plays the PK. A big body who takes away space down low and blocks more shots than anyone else.... are there really 4 defensemen on the Wings you'd rather have on the PK than Lilja? Before you answer, some numbers....

In 118 SH minutes, Ericsson has seen 15 goals against.

In 91 SH minutes, Kronwall has seen 9 goals against.

In 32 SH minutes, Lilja has seen 1 goal against.

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04-08-2010, 04:15 PM
  #269
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Has Lilja had bad stretches, at least to a similar extent to Lebda's?
Completely irrelevant considering the context of what was being discussed, but yes, he has.


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Just like my question above, do you think your expectations for Lebda are higher than they are for Lilja? I do get this impression that they're held to similar standards. The "only" issue I do have with that is that Lilja's standard has to be higher, because once someone brings up that he's reasonably priced at $1.25m, you know the retort has to be Barty's salary being half.
Lebda is on an RFA salary, so that comparison has no merit in terms of what is expected of them. They are both 3rd-pairing defensemen, so the expectations are similar. The only meaningful difference is that Lilja plays the PK, so he has expectation in that category where Lebda does not. And while considering that difference, it should be noted that Lilja performs very well on the PK. Added value.

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04-08-2010, 04:17 PM
  #270
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I missed the graphic last night, but let's look at this more closely. With Lilja in the lineup (18 games), the Wings PK is 89.6%. In the 18 games prior to Lilja's return, the Wings PK was 84.5%, a difference of 5.1%. Seems like a difference to me.

And besides the numbers, any casual observer can see how well Lilja plays the PK. A big body who takes away space down low and blocks more shots than anyone else.... are there really 4 defensemen on the Wings you'd rather have on the PK than Lilja? Before you answer, some numbers....

In 118 SH minutes, Ericsson has seen 15 goals against.

In 91 SH minutes, Kronwall has seen 9 goals against.

In 32 SH minutes, Lilja has seen 1 goal against.

One could also factor in that getting back a PK'er from injury relieves the overall load on the other defensemen (and maybe forwards). All the positions on the team were under stress due to all the injuries. The hard part about tweezing this apart is that so many guys were out, and then came back just as the break was about to start. The team was on an upward trend with each return. Lilja was the last guy brought back and then boom. You've got the full line-up, everyone is healthy, the team is beginning to gel. The coach is focused on just the Wings again. He's got them using Lemaire's system.

So, it's good to get a dedicated PK'er back, and you prefer to have him there because that's why he has the job. I do think it's tough to say what individual contributions have been in such a short period of time. We're only seeing the real Wings right now for the entire year.

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04-08-2010, 04:18 PM
  #271
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Lebda is a good ES defenseman. Lilja's forte is supposed to be the PK. If you could put the two together in one body, you'd have a pretty decent #5 D.
If you could combine the two, you'd have a pretty decent #2/3 defenseman. Lilja with Lebda's wheels and puck-carrying ability? Yeah. As it is, Lilja is already a pretty decent #5. And Lebda is a pretty decent #6.

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04-08-2010, 04:22 PM
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Completely irrelevant considering the context of what was being discussed, but yes, he has.
How is it irrelevant when we're talking about Lebda being benched for stretches? You can discuss Lebda being benched for poor play but not Lilja?

Earth to jaster.


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Lebda is on an RFA salary, so that comparison has no merit in terms of what is expected of them. They are both 3rd-pairing defensemen, so the expectations are similar. The only meaningful difference is that Lilja plays the PK, so he has expectation in that category where Lebda does not. And while considering that difference, it should be noted that Lilja performs very well on the PK. Added value.
Then the real comparison has to be each player's play at ES. Neither does the PP (although Lebda fills in at times). Lilja plays two main roles, and gets paid twice as much. I think it was ES that he suffered last night (too lazy to pull up the game stats). That's the debate.

Let's focus on Lilja's ES play then.

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04-08-2010, 04:28 PM
  #273
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One could also factor in that getting back a PK'er from injury relieves the overall load on the other defensemen (and maybe forwards). All the positions on the team were under stress due to all the injuries. The hard part about tweezing this apart is that so many guys were out, and then came back just as the break was about to start. The team was on an upward trend with each return. Lilja was the last guy brought back and then boom. You've got the full line-up, everyone is healthy, the team is beginning to gel. The coach is focused on just the Wings again. He's got them using Lemaire's system.
Most of those 18 games before Lilja came back was with the full complement of PKers, so I don't buy this line of thinking as being meaningful.

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So, it's good to get a dedicated PK'er back, and you prefer to have him there because that's why he has the job. I do think it's tough to say what individual contributions have been in such a short period of time. We're only seeing the real Wings right now for the entire year.
A statement was made that Lilja does not make the PK any better. Not one bit. I am simply showing that that is patently false. Lilja's a good PKer and he helps the PK. Do you disagree?

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04-08-2010, 04:36 PM
  #274
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How is it irrelevant when we're talking about Lebda being benched for stretches? You can discuss Lebda being benched for poor play but not Lilja?

Earth to jaster.
Come on Fugu, keep up with the conversation! A statement was made that Lebda has never in his career had a game as bad as Lilja did last night. My reply was to demonstrate that that is not true. He has. But it happened longer than 24 hours ago, so it's convenient to forget. What do Lilja benchings have to do with any of that? Again, irrelevant. Earth to Fugu, you're not on Earth


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Then the real comparison has to be each player's play at ES. Neither does the PP (although Lebda fills in at times). Lilja plays two main roles, and gets paid twice as much. I think it was ES that he suffered last night (too lazy to pull up the game stats). That's the debate.

Let's focus on Lilja's ES play then.
Huh? What the heck is the point of that? The conversation was originally about which of Lilja/Lebda should be in the lineup. Which one has more value. I'm saying Lilja.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, other than that you do not like Lilja. Should Lebda be in the lineup instead of him?

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04-08-2010, 09:37 PM
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Come on Fugu, keep up with the conversation! A statement was made that Lebda has never in his career had a game as bad as Lilja did last night. My reply was to demonstrate that that is not true. He has. But it happened longer than 24 hours ago, so it's convenient to forget. What do Lilja benchings have to do with any of that? Again, irrelevant. Earth to Fugu, you're not on Earth




Huh? What the heck is the point of that? The conversation was originally about which of Lilja/Lebda should be in the lineup. Which one has more value. I'm saying Lilja.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, other than that you do not like Lilja. Should Lebda be in the lineup instead of him?
I liked the Lilja - Lebda pairing. The two styles compliment each other. But that leaves Mr. Potential on the sidelines which is sacrilegious to some around here.

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