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Old
04-08-2010, 08:44 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
My enduring image of Sundin was of getting ripped by his coach in Quebec when he felt the effort wasn't there to get past Montreal. He questioned his will to win. Sundin was a great player, wonderful skills but he lacked the one thing. He didn't know how to win. Call me an idiot but lesser teams did more with less. Buffalo beat TO with a lesser line up to reach the finals. Carolina beat TO with a lesser line up and won a cup. Was Brindamour a better player than Sundin? Not a chance but he went through a wall to win.

I don't want A guy anymore. I want THE guy. Once we have that we will all forget about the rest.
He's one of the biggest winners in Swedish international hockey history. 3 WCs and 1 Olympic Gold. He's arguably the best Tre Kronor player of all time.

You won't find a Swede who questions Mats will to win.

Yeah... I miss him too

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04-08-2010, 09:01 PM
  #102
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i wouldn't retire it, but would hang/commemorate it...

emotionally, i'm still pissed, but he was solid for years in toronto

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04-08-2010, 09:06 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent_TheGreat View Post
I remember him as a traitor, good riddance
You are a silly, silly man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
Nice wording.

I perfer, giving him the chance to go to a contender to which he rejected for reasons of wanting to be with a team for a whole year, which he contradicted.
Oh, no! So we pressured the guy by trying to get him to give up his home of 14 years, and perhaps he says something that he doesn't really believe in an attempt to justify staying with us?! The madness..

Its easier to cope with change when you're the one orchestrating it...And he likely knew he would sign with the Canucks long before he actually started playing for them.
This whole contradiction thing is ridiculous. Judge him as a player, a leader, and a community member, but putting him on trial for what he said to the media while we tried to get rid of him, and for his apparent change in thinking thereafter is ridiculous.

Call da Ambalamps.


Last edited by Canad93: 04-08-2010 at 09:15 PM.
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04-08-2010, 09:08 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by spidergoalie View Post
Gilmour = infinitely greater on every conceivable level than Sundin.
Thus I miss Dougie.
Infinitely greater on every conceivable level??? You might want to turn the hyperbole down a few levels, my friend.

And Gilmour asked to be traded out of Toronto. In my mind, he quit on the team.

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04-08-2010, 09:54 PM
  #105
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How long before he comes back as the coach?
Who gets to coach first, Sundin or Gilmour?

Coach Gilmour?
Assistant Sundin?




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04-08-2010, 10:13 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by cupcrazyman View Post
you make it public knowledge that you're trying to trade Matts & with no takers because of the asking price,you offer him a contract extension & you expect him to take it ? if thats not a slap in the face, i don't know what is. leaf fan our not thats not right.
I believe the same thing is happening to Kaberle. Nobody is mentioning this in regards to him.

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04-08-2010, 10:17 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Canad93 View Post
You are a silly, silly man.



Oh, no! So we pressured the guy by trying to get him to give up his home of 14 years, and perhaps he says something that he doesn't really believe in an attempt to justify staying with us?! The madness..

Its easier to cope with change when you're the one orchestrating it...And he likely knew he would sign with the Canucks long before he actually started playing for them.
This whole contradiction thing is ridiculous. Judge him as a player, a leader, and a community member, but putting him on trial for what he said to the media while we tried to get rid of him, and for his apparent change in thinking thereafter is ridiculous.

Call da Ambalamps.
So why not tell the management you want to go to Vancouver to work out a trade. Most veterans do this, I don't understand how its so wrong that we wanted Sundin to do the same.

How is it ridiculous? Like it or not, this is what is going to be a part of Sundin when hes spoken of as a Leaf player.

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04-08-2010, 11:38 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
So why not tell the management you want to go to Vancouver to work out a trade. Most veterans do this, I don't understand how its so wrong that we wanted Sundin to do the same.

How is it ridiculous? Like it or not, this is what is going to be a part of Sundin when hes spoken of as a Leaf player.
But Sundin didn't want to be traded and as a player with a NMC, he had the right to say no. It's that simple.

Just because a bunch of silly fans had fanciful dreams of him waiving his NMC and the Leafs acquiring a bushel full of goodies for him doesn't put him under any kind of requirement to do so.

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04-08-2010, 11:42 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
So why not tell the management you want to go to Vancouver to work out a trade. Most veterans do this, I don't understand how its so wrong that we wanted Sundin to do the same.

How is it ridiculous? Like it or not, this is what is going to be a part of Sundin when hes spoken of as a Leaf player.
People don't like moving across the continent without time to prepare. Hockey players are people.

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04-09-2010, 12:30 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brentbreakaway23 View Post
Mats Sundin put the emergency brake on a franchise re-build.

Had he not been so selfish and agreed to waive, that first rounder probably would be playing for the Leafs today. And remember, the 2008 draft was pretty well stocked.

What he should have done was agree to a trade, I bet Fletcher would have given him a gentleman's agreement to bring him back.

But he chose the "it's all about the journey" route b.s.

Then he holds 4 NHL teams in handcuffs, before signing with Vancouver in December for millions of dollars.

What journey are you talking about Mats?
Agreed... I loved the guy up till that point... After that I could care less what he did... For me that one moment tarnished his whole image for me... He damn well knew he wasn't coming back.. He could have done so much to the franchise he apparently loved and loved him, but he screwed us!

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04-09-2010, 02:27 AM
  #111
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We kinda had a similar situation in Vancouver with Naslund...but his problem was effort...

Sundin was a straight up workhorse. Cherry would say he didn't play as well if he didn't get 20 mins.
I'd give almost anything for a prime Sundin on this team...

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04-09-2010, 03:24 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojac View Post
Infinitely greater on every conceivable level??? You might want to turn the hyperbole down a few levels, my friend.

And Gilmour asked to be traded out of Toronto. In my mind, he quit on the team.
No I'm ok with that level of hyperbole thanks.

As far as all this talk of who is a traitor...you all know these are professional athletes right?
The only issue I had with Sundin was the talk of not wanting to be a rental player, then taking so long to decide what to do, and signing a one year deal essentially making him a rental, but even then, it was his decision to make.

In todays NHL it is all business and talk of who is a traitor is naive. Of course every player out there is going to make choices based on what is best both in the immediate and the future for them and their families.

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04-09-2010, 05:49 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by spidergoalie View Post
No I'm ok with that level of hyperbole thanks.

As far as all this talk of who is a traitor...you all know these are professional athletes right?
The only issue I had with Sundin was the talk of not wanting to be a rental player, then taking so long to decide what to do, and signing a one year deal essentially making him a rental, but even then, it was his decision to make.

In todays NHL it is all business and talk of who is a traitor is naive. Of course every player out there is going to make choices based on what is best both in the immediate and the future for them and their families.
Well, I never said Gilmour was a traitor. I said he quit on the team. He asked to be traded away from Toronto, yet I have seen very few Leaf fans ever hold it against him.

As for the rental player statements. Yeah, he made them. Yeah, you could consider the Vancouver think a rental situation -- depends on how you define it. Perhaps Sundin only considered it a rental situation if the player was being obtained from another team not from free agency or maybe he only considers it a rental if the acquisition is made at the deadline not over a month before. Or perhaps he simply changed his mind -- last I heard people were allowed to do that.

Hockey players are human beings. Occasionally they are going to make mistakes. Perhaps they ask for a trade away from where they're loved. Or perhaps they make a statement worded in such a way that some fans will consider them a hypocrite if they ever behave in a way that even slightly contradicts any interpretation of that statement.

In my mind, both Gilmour and Sundin were great players and great leaders for the Leafs. But they're also human beings and we shouldn't forget that.


Last edited by rojac: 04-09-2010 at 05:59 AM.
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Old
04-09-2010, 06:12 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Vincent_TheGreat View Post
Agreed... I loved the guy up till that point... After that I could care less what he did... For me that one moment tarnished his whole image for me... He damn well knew he wasn't coming back.. He could have done so much to the franchise he apparently loved and loved him, but he screwed us!
I think it might come done to a difference between how a player, especially a captain, views a team and how a fan views it.

I think a fan views a given year's incarnation of a team as a step in the continuity of a franchise. They're often taking a long term view.

On the other hand, I think a player sees a team as the given collection. of players on the team at that time.

So, a fan might view Sundin as a traitor to his team (in a long term franchise sense) for refusing to waive his NMC. On the other hand, Sundin himself might feel that by accepting a trade he is being a traitor to his team (this given collection of players) because he feels he has an obligation to them.


Last edited by rojac: 04-09-2010 at 06:32 AM.
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04-09-2010, 06:16 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
I think it might come done to a difference between how a player, especially a captain, views a team and how a fan views it.

I think a fan views a given year's incarnation of a team as a step in the continuity of a franchise. They're often taking a long term view.

On the other hand, I think a player sees a team as the given collection. of players on the team at that time.

So, a fan might view Sundin as a traitor to his team (in a long term franchise sense) for refusing to waive his NMC. On the other hand, Sundin himself might feel that by aceepting a trade he is being a traitor to his team (this given collection of players) because he feels he has an obligation to them.
Anyone who's ever played on a team understands this.

If not for Fletchers total mishandling, this whole mess would have turned out much better for all.

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04-09-2010, 06:41 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
But Sundin didn't want to be traded and as a player with a NMC, he had the right to say no. It's that simple.

Just because a bunch of silly fans had fanciful dreams of him waiving his NMC and the Leafs acquiring a bushel full of goodies for him doesn't put him under any kind of requirement to do so.
He had a right to say no, he negotiated that right. You would think he would want a chance to win though and that puzzles me. How many hall of fame players decided to move on with a chance to win? Continue on in a frustrated hockey club and town or go somewhere with a chance to win. It should have been a positive for him. We even asked Tim Horton at the end of his career if he wanted another chance at a cup. Arguably one of best d-men of all time and he went for it. He was a winner and wanted to win. I question Mats will to win. Against Buffalo with Hasek out for the first two games he was the best player on the ice, he should have put that team on his shoulders and marched them into the finals. That should have been a 2-0 lead before going back to Buffalo and making the hole too deep. Against Philly with a crappy goal tender he disappeared in game one, never tested the goalie, they should have been up 2-0 coming home. This is Mats, great player but not a Messier, not a leader. You guys can argue with me until you're blue in the face. Guys like Yzerman, Messier got dumped on and rose to the occasion-became a champion. With Mats we were always one player short, one forward short. There was ENOUGH talent on those teams to at least make it to a few stanley cup finals and win a cup or two. Mats was a fantastic player but NOT good enough to win it all, put his team on his back and march it through the playoffs. In the end he could have erased all that by saying he wanted to play for a contender. Fletch could have played several teams with that. all you heard was Montreal, if I do remember correctly several other teams were pursuing him if he would waive. He could have had his choice and in turn helped the team and the city he apparently loved.

NO. He didn't have to waive and with that it reminded me one thing. He didn't want to win bad enough.


Last edited by daveleaf: 04-09-2010 at 06:43 AM. Reason: spelling
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04-09-2010, 06:52 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
NO. He didn't have to waive and with that it reminded me one thing. He didn't want to win bad enough.
Or he wanted to win as a Leaf. And winning with someone else, who he had only been with for a few weeks, would mean less.

And as I stated elsewhere, I don't think you can discount the idea that he might feel like a traitor for abandoning the team he was leading.

Based on comments from people who played with Mats as captain, he was a very good leader. I have yet to hear a player who played with him question his leadership. And if he wasn't a good leader, then why was he captain of the Swedish national team over other players on that team such as Alfredson, Lidstrom, Forsberg, or Naslund who have all served as NHL captain? And of course, Messier himself selected Sundin for the Mark Messier Leadership Award.


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04-09-2010, 07:08 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Anyone who's ever played on a team understands this.

If not for Fletchers total mishandling, this whole mess would have turned out much better for all.
and if sundin didn't spew as much BS it would be a lot different too.

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04-09-2010, 07:10 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
Or he wanted to win as a Leaf. And winning with someone else, who he had only been with for a few weeks, would mean less.

And as I stated elsewhere, I don't think you can discount the idea that he might feel like a traitor for abandoning the team he was leading.

Based on comments from people who played with Mats as captain, he was a very good leader. I have yet to hear a player who played with him question his leadership. And if he wasn't a good leader, then why was he captain of the Swedish national team over other players on that team such as Alfredson, Lidstrom, Forsberg, or Naslund who have all served as NHL captain? And of course, Messier himself selected Sundin for the Mark Messier Leadership Award.
So then he decides to sit out a half a year and become a 30 games player for the Canucks? I guess he felt like he was part of that team.

I wonder if that big smile on his face was masking the fact that he was calling Leech, Francis, Nolan and Gilmour traitors at the deadline when the Leafs acquired them?

Mats never won a cup in Toronto. He had several chances-didn't get it done. End of story. True leaders win. Mats never won in the NHL.

Great player with a tonne of skill but over a brilliant career never won a cup on teams that consistently finished near the top.


Last edited by daveleaf: 04-09-2010 at 07:11 AM. Reason: grammar
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04-09-2010, 07:10 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
Or he wanted to win as a Leaf. And winning with someone else, who he had only been with for a few weeks, would mean less.

And as I stated elsewhere, I don't think you can discount the idea that he might feel like a traitor for abandoning the team he was leading.

Based on comments from people who played with Mats as captain, he was a very good leader. I have yet to hear a player who played with him question his leadership. And if he wasn't a good leader, then why was he captain of the Swedish national team over other players on that team such as Alfredson, Lidstrom, Forsberg, or Naslund who have all served as NHL captain? And of course, Messier himself selected Sundin for the Mark Messier Leadership Award.
lol @ wanted to win as a Leaf. It was pretty obvious that final year that THIS TEAM WASN'T GOING TO THE PLAYOFFS

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04-09-2010, 07:12 AM
  #121
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You blame Sundin for using a NMC that was in his contract, why not blame the retards who thought they could rebuild a team by moving players with NMCs that they gave them in the first place?

He did a lot of great things in Toronto, but pro hockey is a business from a player's standpoint, not just management/ownership. You're delusional if you don't realize this.

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04-09-2010, 07:14 AM
  #122
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lol @ wanted to win as a Leaf. It was pretty obvious that final year that THIS TEAM WASN'T GOING TO THE PLAYOFFS
I'm not sure it's ever as obvious to those actually competing as it is those watching.

And I have to wonder. Is that how you expect a Leafs captain to behave? To give up even though there is still a very small chance they could still succeed?

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04-09-2010, 07:15 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by naturalnumbas View Post
You blame Sundin for using a NMC that was in his contract, why not blame the retards who thought they could rebuild a team by moving players with NMCs that they gave them in the first place?

He did a lot of great things in Toronto, but pro hockey is a business from a player's standpoint, not just management/ownership. You're delusional if you don't realize this.
Mats LIED when he said he didn't want to be a rental player.

What the **** do you think he was with Vancouver??

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04-09-2010, 07:16 AM
  #124
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I'm not sure it's ever as obvious to those actually competing as it is those watching.
Just another excuse proSundin people will use.

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04-09-2010, 07:22 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Cleets View Post
How long before he comes back as the coach?
Who gets to coach first, Sundin or Gilmour?

Coach Gilmour?
Assistant Sundin?



sundin is too busy hunting big game on pokerstars

so my guess is Gilmour.

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