HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

ATD 2010 Red Fisher Conference Final: Halifax Mooseheads vs. Vancouver Maroons

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-04-2010, 03:35 PM
  #1
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,558
vCash: 500
ATD 2010 Red Fisher Conference Final: Halifax Mooseheads vs. Vancouver Maroons

The Red Fisher Conference Final Round:


Halifax Mooseheads

coach Jacques Demers

Sweeney Schriner - Frank Boucher - Rick Middleton
Rick Martin - Henri Richard (C) - Hooley Smith (A)
Ryan Walter - Dave Poulin - Mike Foligno
Yvon Lambert - Red Sullivan - Terry O'Reilly
Rejean Houle, Bronco Horvath

Fern Flaman (A) - Bobby Orr
Vladimir Konstantinov - Gus Mortson
Jiri Bubla - Dave Langevin
Weldy Young

Tony Esposito
Vladimir Dzurilla


vs.


Vancouver Maroons

coach Jacques Lemaire

Ace Bailey - Milt Schmidt (C) - Pavel Bure
Theo Fleury - Doug Gilmour (A) - Bobby Bauer
Joe Klukay - Don Luce - Gary Dornhoefer
Tomas Holmstrom - Dale Hunter - Duane Sutter
Craig Simpson, Corb Denneny

Guy Lapointe - Herb Gardiner
Harry Howell (A) - Paul Reinhart
Kevin Hatcher - Gary Bergman
Dion Phaneuf

Patrick Roy
Ron Hextall


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 05-04-2010 at 10:33 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2010, 03:36 PM
  #2
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,558
vCash: 500
Halifax Mooseheads

PP1: Schriner-Boucher-Smith-Orr-Mortson
PP2: Martin-Richard-Middleton-Orr-Bubla

PK1: Poulin-Middleton-Orr-Flaman
PK2: Richard-Smith-Konstantinov-Mortson
PK3: Boucher-Walter-

vs.

Vancouver Maroons

PP1: Bailey - Gilmour - Bure - Lapointe - Reinhart
PP2: Holmstrom - Schmidt - Bauer - Hatcher - Bergman

PK1: Klukay - Luce - Howell - Gardiner
PK2: Bailey - Schmidt - Lapointe - Bergman
PK3: Gilmour - Fleury - Howell - Gardiner


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 05-04-2010 at 03:53 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2010, 03:48 PM
  #3
hungryhungryhippy
Registered User
 
hungryhungryhippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 739
vCash: 500
Should be an interesting series, two of my favorite teams

I'll have some opening statements in a bit regarding the matchup and Vancouver's strategy going into the series.


EDIT: I copy and pasted this post from the second page of the thread, it's my summary of the arguments...

Please take 5 minutes to read this post before voting! (there's a lot less writing than it looks like their is)


The Neutral Zone Trap:


- Vancouver will be playing a 1-4 Neutral zone trap to clog up the neutral zone, hinder the offensive ability of player's like Boucher, and in general, make this as low scoring a series as possible. The Maroons were built to play this style of low-scoring hockey, so Vancouver already has an advantage to start.

- Halifax's forwards are not suited to play against the trap, or play a dump and chase game. They need time and space to set up in the offensive zone to be effective. The 1st line for example, heavily relies on Boucher to be the offensive catalyst with his passing and vision, but the trap will hinder his ability to use his most effective assets. This line will have to play a dump and chase game that they are not adept at, and be much less effective than they usually would.

- The trap will cause Halifax's forwards to frequently turn the puck over in the neutral zone. This is where Vancouver intends to do the most damage, especially with Pavel Bure. He will be in the neutral zone waiting to intercept passes, or pounce on the turnovers, and utilize his EXPLOSIVE speed to break into the offensive zone for 1-on-1 opportunities with the defenseman, maybe even a breakaway or two.

- The trap will also begin to frustrate and aggravate the Halifax players that aren't used to it, and cause them to make bad mistakes and/or take bad penalties.

How Vancouver Scores:

- Vancouver will capitalize on Halifax's mistakes (turnovers that lead to sustained pressure or breakaways, Bure's explosive speed in 1-on-1 opportunities, PP opportunities) and get the minimal amount of scoring it needs to just hold the lead and grind out the 1-0, 2-1, and 3-2 wins.

The Forwards:

- Bure is the best goalscorer in the series, and Schmidt is the most dominant forward in the series.

- I plan on matching Schmidt against Boucher whenever possible, because Schmidt can dominate him physically and do a tremendous job of containing him defensively, while countering offensively. In this sense, Boucher is the odd man out amongst the 4 big centers (Schmidt, Boucher, Richard, Gilmour).

- Vancouver's Klukay-Luce are easily the best bottom-6 players on either team, they are elite checkers.

- Vancouver's forwards, once again, are the better two-way players in the series. This line up is chalk full of guys that put together ATD worthy careers at both ends of the ice. Vancouver will look to them to play tight, responsible, defensive hockey and make a difference in their own zone. The "team defense" concept is very important on this team, and imperative to this team's success.

Goaltending:

- Vancouver has THE greatest playoff goalie of all-time. Roy can stand on his head and hold the fort down for Vancouver when things might not be going great. He has the ability to steal a game, or even a series for Vancouver, and his clutch saves can dishearten the other team while building momentum for Vancouver.

- Esposito is a bottom-3 playoff starter. He's a lower tier starter who also has one of the most underwhelming playoff resumes. He regularly got an opportunity to play in the playoffs, but never backstopped his team to a single Stanley Cup. He has an under .500 winning record in the playoffs, a GAA that ballooned from the regular season to the playoffs, and some disastrous performances. Esposito has the potential to be exploited, and cost his team the series.

- It's important to note that Halifax's top lines don't really have a net presence (or much physicality), so Roy's job will be pretty easy and he'll get to see all the perimeter shots.

- The only significant weakness on either of these two very, very, good teams is Esposito.

Regarding Bobby Orr:

- This is the All-Time Draft, a league of the greatest players in history, and it's important to remember that everything is relative. Obviously, Orr is not going to be as dominant as he was in real life or get away with everything that he could get away with against weaker competition

- Orr has a serious defensive responsibility in his own zone, against strong ATD competition. Orr can not realistically be expected to carry the puck up ice for Halifax's forwards every time, when that's their job. No matter how good you are, turnovers happens, passes get intercepted, etc.. against the trap, and when they do, Orr will be caught out of position and his team will pay the price. Because of the trap, Orr will have to be more cautious, and let his forwards carry the puck up ice more often than not.


Last edited by hungryhungryhippy: 05-08-2010 at 02:58 PM.
hungryhungryhippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2010, 03:50 PM
  #4
Stoneberg
Bored
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,672
vCash: 500
Congrats HHH, and good luck. I'm a big fan of your team.

I look forward to getting in to the series either tonight after the game or tomorrow.

I'll just kick it off with the shocking news that I will concede the massive goaltending advantage to the Maroons.

I'm glad to have home ice advantage and a similar caliber coach, getting my matchups will be important in this series.

Stoneberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2010, 03:52 PM
  #5
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,558
vCash: 500
Bobby Orr's speed from the backend will create major issues for a Maroon team playing a system designed to trap the opponent's forwards.

On the other hand, Halifax's skilled forwards don't look very apt at the dump and chase game, so expect a good number of turnovers when they do have the puck in the neutral zone.

I look forward to arguments in this one.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2010, 04:04 PM
  #6
Stoneberg
Bored
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,672
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Bobby Orr's speed from the backend will create major issues for a Maroon team playing a system designed to trap the opponent's forwards.

On the other hand, Halifax's skilled forwards don't look very apt at the dump and chase game, so expect a good number of turnovers when they do have the puck in the neutral zone.

I look forward to arguments in this one.
At first glance, I really think that my top line might be the only one with trouble dumping and chasing, so there could be some turnovers there. I'll be looking to find some information to the contrary though. As far as other skilled forwards, I know my second line will be great for situations where the puck needs to be dumped in, Smith and Richard are more than capable of a tenacious forecheck or just straight blowing around a defender on the dump in.

That said, by no means will the Mooseheads be playing an exclusive dump and chase game. It doesn't hurt that, as you pointed out, I have an (if not the) ultimate trap breaker in Orr.

I'll touch on this again later.

Stoneberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2010, 04:44 PM
  #7
hungryhungryhippy
Registered User
 
hungryhungryhippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 739
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stalberg View Post
Congrats HHH, and good luck. I'm a big fan of your team.

I look forward to getting in to the series either tonight after the game or tomorrow.

I'll just kick it off with the shocking news that I will concede the massive goaltending advantage to the Maroons.

I'm glad to have home ice advantage and a similar caliber coach, getting my matchups will be important in this series.
Thanks, and congrats to you as well.

I was just going to ask you about matchups actually. I'll get the ones I want 3/7 games and you'll get the ones you want 4/7 games so how do you plan on matching the lines?

Personally, I don't really care too much about match-up game because my top two lines are both pretty balanced (offensively and defensively). I was thinking of just having the top lines both go at it head to head though. Yourself?

hungryhungryhippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2010, 09:12 PM
  #8
hungryhungryhippy
Registered User
 
hungryhungryhippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 739
vCash: 500
Keys to the Series for Vancouver

The Gameplan:

For starters, everyone should note that the Maroons are going all-out on the defense in this series, more so then even before. Lemaire has stressed the importance of defense, defense, and more defense to his team. The players are all going to be extremely disciplined, extremely cautious, and stick to clogging up the neutral zone.

Make no mistake about it: Vancouver intends to make this as low scoring a series as possible and out-grind the Mooseheads. The Maroons were built for this style of playoff hockey, and as long as the forwards stick to their game plan and refuse to trade chances with the Mooseheads, there's nothing the Mooseheads can do to change the flow of the game.

That's the beauty of it for Vancouver... In any game, if 1 team decides to trap and play cautious defensive hockey, there's not much the other team can do to change the flow and style of the game.

The Neutral Zone Trap:

Unlike in the last two series', where the trap wasn't of too much importance for me, I definitely think that a heavy neutral zone trap will be important for the Maroons in this series. Lemaire will certainly be playing a 1-4 trap all series long.

As you may have noticed, Halifax's forwards are at their best when they have lots of time and space, and can set up in the offensive zone. The first line in particular, depends on Boucher's vision and passing to be the offensive catalyst that carries the line. Vancouver feels that they can really make this line a lot less effective by clogging up the neutral zone, not giving Boucher the opportunity to fully utilize his passing ability and vision, and making it as difficult as possible to gain the line and set up in the offensive zone.

Halifax's forwards are not very well equipped to beat the trap or play a dump and chase game. I'm sure they CAN play a dump and chase game, but it's definitely not their bread and butter. Clogging up the neutral zone slows the game down and doesn't allow the creativity of certain players to manifest. Overall, the trap makes Halifax's forwards much less effective than they would be otherwise. When I look at how Halifax's lines are constructed and how Vancouver's lines are constructed, it seems to me like their offensive ability will be hindered more.

Also, as TDMM pointed out, it seems like Halifax's forwards will struggle with giving the puck away as they try and beat the trap, not the best forwards to play against a trapping team.

As has also been pointed out though, what about that Bobby Orr guy?

Regarding Orr:

He's the best defenseman in the league and arguably the best player in the league, he's a huge asset. There's nothing I can say against him, but I have to stress these two points:

1) Orr isn't god, and he isn't a machine, he's just a man like everyone else in this. Everyone makes mistakes, and no one is flawless. There are no players that don't have limits and boundaries.

2) This is the All-Time Draft, a league of the greatest players in history, and it's important to remember that everything is relative. Obviously, Orr is not going to be as dominant as he was in real life or get away with everything that he could get away with against weaker competition. (this applies to everyone)

Orr is probably the best trap-breaker in the league, Stalberg will get no argument from me about this. Keep two things in mind though:

1) He's on the ice for half the game, not all 60 minutes

2) Orr is a great trap-breaker, but this doesn't mean he can solve all Halifax's problems (as related to fighting the trap). The trap is still going to change the dynamic of the game, hinder the ability of Halifax's best forwards, and make Orr a slightly less effective puck carrier too. Halifax can NOT just simply rely on Orr to carry the puck up ice every single time and be successful more often than not. Somewhere along the line, this hurts Orr's game.

Orr has a serious responsibility in the defensive end of the ice for Halifax, and he might start to form bad habits like trying to single-handedly make his way through all the traffic in the neutral zone and getting carried away with the challenge. Take this scenario for example:

Schmidt forces Orr to come up the side boards, where Bailey and Bure are waiting to corner him off as he enters the neutral zone, Orr doesn't think he has a viable passing option, so he tries to do some incredible dipsy doodling around both of the wingers, but that kind of stuff doesn't always work, and Bailey manages to poke the puck away while tangling with Orr. Immediately, Bure grabs the puck like a hawk and comes into the offensive zone with his explosive speed. Now it's a 1-on-1 situation for Bure against a much slower and less agile Flaman, because no one else can get back for Halifax in time and Orr is out of position.

You keep doing that, and eventually, Bure or someone else will capitalize on a turnover and burn you. This Vancouver team doesn't need very many goals to win a game.

My point is, Orr can't lead the Halifax forwards on every single rush, and expect not to turn the puck over a fair amount (it's inevitable), and then expect to be able to get right back in position every single time (playing 30 minutes a night against ATD level competition) with players like Bure out there. I think that Moosehead coach Demers would stress caution and restraint to Orr when it comes to trying to beat the trap.

Milt Schmidt:

Warning: All I'm really doing here is pimping Schmidt, just wanted to add some fun and creative expression to the storyline while I did it

Gilmour was given a bigger role than Schmidt in the last series, trying to stop the Morenz line, while Lemaire left Schmidt to babysit for Bauer and Bure in the defensive zone. Now, it's Schmidt's time to shine again for Vancouver in this series and he's eager to take on the challenges in this series. The Maroons are going to look to their captain to step up and have a big series. Expect Schmidt to be a beast in every corner of the ice and a force to be reckoned with in both zones. I don't care much about the matchups, but I'd prefer to have Schmidt's line against the Boucher line so Schmidt can batlle Boucher defensively and physically.

The Ideal Series:

This is how Vancouver wins if everything works out. Everything obviously won't work out perfectly though, it's just to give you an idea of how Vancouver wants to handle the series, and areas where Vancouver could potentially damage the Mooseheads the most.

- Esposito (a bottom tier goalie) is exploited and lets in some soft goals early. He starts to feel shaky, and memories of his playoff woes with the Blackhawks start creeping into the back of his head. Vancouver has their way with him all series long, and take advantage of the biggest weakness on either team in this series, Halifax's goaltending.

- Roy stands on his head all series long, and holds the fort down for Vancouver when they need it most. Intimidates the Halifax shooters, causing them to pass on shots that they would otherwise take throughout the series. Vancouver builds momentum off Roy's clutch saves.

- The Halifax players become increasingly more aggravated with the trap. The game feels slow and boring for them, they lose focus and interest at times in the series because of the repetitiveness of the game.

- The trap helps Bure really utilize his incredible speed by pouncing on turnovers in the neutral zone that lead to 1-1 opportunities (where he thrives most).

- Vancouver gets the minimal amount of scoring it needs from Bure's breakout potential, Halifax's turnovers, clutch Gilmour-Fleury connections, and some PP goals, and then relies on the trap, the team defense, the defensive-minded forwards, the top-end penalty kill/discipline not to take dumb penalties (a trademark of Lemaire teams), and Patrick Roy to grind out the 1-0, 2-1, and 3-2 wins.

hungryhungryhippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2010, 08:29 AM
  #9
Stoneberg
Bored
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,672
vCash: 500
I don't have time to address your post in full right now from work, but I think there are a couple of assumptions being made that I will definitely need to discuss later.

As for matchups, I like Richard's line against Schmidt's, primarily due to Bure being his biggest offensive weapon. Even in a trap system (which I'm still having fun imagining Bure play), he will still be exploitable on the counter attack. I want Mortson and Konstantinov out with Richard's line in this series.

I'm ok with Boucher against Gilmour as well, with Orr and Flaman. This is because, as mentioned, Richard's line will have a much easier time dumping and chasing than Boucher's with their speed and two renowned tenacious forecheckers. Since my opponent has indicated this as a strategy:
Quote:
Schmidt forces Orr to come up the side boards, where Bailey and Bure are waiting to corner him off as he enters the neutral zone, Orr doesn't think he has a viable passing option, so he tries to do some incredible dipsy doodling around both of the wingers, but that kind of stuff doesn't always work, and Bailey manages to poke the puck away while tangling with Orr. Immediately, Bure grabs the puck like a hawk and comes into the offensive zone with his explosive speed. Now it's a 1-on-1 situation for Bure against a much slower and less agile Flaman, because no one else can get back for Halifax in time and Orr is out of position.
You think one of the best playmakers of all time wouldn't have a problem finding an open man when you have three focused on him? It wouldn't be an issue at all, in fact, I'd argue it would be more of a problem for you. A more likely scenario is Orr dishing it to one of the two guys that will be uncovered: Orr finds Flaman who is left all along and moves it up to Boucher quickly. Boucher sends it accross the ice right on to the tape of Middleton who embarasses Reinhart (more on this later) with a dangle through his skates, and finds either the trailer or the guy going to the net for a quality scoring opportunity. If my forwards are even following a standard breakout, this should create a lot of 3 on 2's for Boucher to work with.

In your situation, I'd also be a little more worried about Bure getting maimed by Flaman than you seem to be.

Obviously I'll be licking my chops any time I can get one of my top two lines out against the Maroons fourth, I'm sure the feeling is mutual.

My biggest advantage is clearly on the blueline, which I will discuss more later. I still think Reinhart is a weakness on a second pairing, even with Howell. Just pointing it out early in case you feel like addressing it.

It seems I've already got carried away from work, I'll address the rest later.

Stoneberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2010, 01:42 PM
  #10
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,558
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy View Post
[U][B][SIZE="3"]
Schmidt forces Orr to come up the side boards, where Bailey and Bure are waiting to corner him off as he enters the neutral zone, Orr doesn't think he has a viable passing option, so he tries to do some incredible dipsy doodling around both of the wingers, but that kind of stuff doesn't always work, and Bailey manages to poke the puck away while tangling with Orr. Immediately, Bure grabs the puck like a hawk and comes into the offensive zone with his explosive speed. Now it's a 1-on-1 situation for Bure against a much slower and less agile Flaman, because no one else can get back for Halifax in time and Orr is out of position.
I like most of what you posted so far, but I had to laugh at the thought of Bure waiting back as the trapping forward.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2010, 05:40 PM
  #11
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,827
vCash: 500
Quote:
2) This is the All-Time Draft, a league of the greatest players in history, and it's important to remember that everything is relative. Obviously, Orr is not going to be as dominant as he was in real life or get away with everything that he could get away with against weaker competition. (this applies to everyone)
Very important point for everyone to consider.

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2010, 06:18 PM
  #12
hungryhungryhippy
Registered User
 
hungryhungryhippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 739
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stalberg View Post
As for matchups, I like Richard's line against Schmidt's, primarily due to Bure being his biggest offensive weapon. Even in a trap system (which I'm still having fun imagining Bure play), he will still be exploitable on the counter attack. I want Mortson and Konstantinov out with Richard's line in this series.

I'm ok with Boucher against Gilmour as well, with Orr and Flaman. This is because, as mentioned, Richard's line will have a much easier time dumping and chasing than Boucher's with their speed and two renowned tenacious forecheckers.
It seems like both of us don't mind the matchups much, but have preferences. I'm fine with Gilmour's line against Boucher's and Schmidt's against Richard's. I'll probably do the opposite at home though and get Schmidt to battle Boucher.

Quote:
You think one of the best playmakers of all time wouldn't have a problem finding an open man when you have three focused on him? It wouldn't be an issue at all, in fact, I'd argue it would be more of a problem for you. A more likely scenario is Orr dishing it to one of the two guys that will be uncovered: Orr finds Flaman who is left all along and moves it up to Boucher quickly. Boucher sends it accross the ice right on to the tape of Middleton who embarasses Reinhart (more on this later) with a dangle through his skates, and finds either the trailer or the guy going to the net for a quality scoring opportunity. If my forwards are even following a standard breakout, this should create a lot of 3 on 2's for Boucher to work with.
A few key problems with this hypothetical scenario:

1) It isn't 3 guys on the defenseman, it's only the wingers, and they only fully commit to the defenseman when he enters the neutral zone and at that point has to either try and get by them (risky) or make a risky pass through the winger that comes in at an angle (high chance of interception) or dump it down the boards (safest and most likely play). Schmidt only stands in front of the net on the forecheck to make sure that the defenseman carrying the puck has to commit to one side of the boards, then makes his way back into the neutral zone along the center of the ice to try and intercept a pass or backcheck the forwards if they get the puck.

2) Why would Flaman be ahead of or even lateral to Orr? I'd assume that if you're trying to utilize Orr as a puck carrier to lead the forwards, you would keep Flaman back to guard your zone if there's a turnover? If Orr is passing backwards to Flaman, then you aren't really accomplishing much. Schmidt will be back into the neutral zone by this point, along with the two defensemen, and the two wingers have have already basically covered a third or a half of the ice. So you have Flaman instead of Orr trying to make a pass into a clogged up neutral zone where your forwards are still going to end up being impeded, and having to dump and chase.

3) So Middleton just automatically goes for the toe drag and pulls it off too?

Anyways, building off that second point I made.... In that scenario, you end up having Flaman do what Orr could've done better in the first place anyways, just with one of the wingers out of the way a bit. More often than not, it seems to me that you're just going to end up having Orr (or whoever) carry the puck for a bit and then make a pass into the neutral zone right before he reaches the blue line. I've already explained why he can't constantly be trying to skate through the neutral zone by himself, and as great a passer as Orr was, with a winger standing in front of him and another covering the passing lane a few feet away, a diagonal stretch pass through the clogged up neutral zone will tend to be unsuccessful. There are a couple main points I think I've established with all this here:

1) The risk of turning the puck over and being caught out of position, as a result of the trap, prevents Orr from even trying to carry the puck up ice as much as he usually likes to or otherwise would.

2) Orr (or any other defenseman) will most likely have to just make the safest pass into the neutral zone and expect the forwards to try and make their way through the neutral zone without being delayed or impeded by anyone, or dump and chase.

3) So, while Orr can certainly help beat the trap for the 30 minutes or so that he's on the ice (with his outlet passing), in the end, Halifax's success against the trap relies most heavily on how their forwards deal with the trap, not Orr.

Quote:
In your situation, I'd also be a little more worried about Bure getting maimed by Flaman than you seem to be.
I thought about it, but Bure could handle the puck so well, while skating so fast, that I don't think he got caught with his head down much. In a 1-on-1 situation in a close game, is Flaman really going to take a risk and go for the big hit against such an agile opponent with his head up? Knowing that if he misses the hit, or Bure times the deke, the puck will probably end up in the back of Esposito's net.

Quote:
Obviously I'll be licking my chops any time I can get one of my top two lines out against the Maroons fourth, I'm sure the feeling is mutual.
Sure, it's always nice to get your top lines out against a 4th line. I should point out that the 4th line only plays 5 minutes, and Holmstrom is strictly a PP specialist, Fleury and Klukay take turns on the 4th line for those 5 minutes a game that the line plays.

Quote:
My biggest advantage is clearly on the blueline, which I will discuss more later. I still think Reinhart is a weakness on a second pairing, even with Howell. Just pointing it out early in case you feel like addressing it.
From my understanding, Reinhart was never a noteworthy enough liability in the NHL. Obviously, his defensive game wasn't amazing, but that's a price that almost all offensive defensemen in history pay. Reinhart was a terrific offensive defenseman, who didn't shine in his own zone, but wasn't really a "liability" per say.

Unless you can present evidence (like quotes) that says he was a liability defensively, we have to assume that he was fine in his own zone. I have this quote:

Quote:
"In terms of all around talent, I don't believe there are many defensemen better than Reinhart," said his coach Bob Johnson during the 1986 season. "He's a capable defender in his own zone, first of all. Moreover, he's got the mobility and the offensive skills to make an important contribution to our attack. He's the big reason we've got one of the strongest power plays in the NHL."
He also was one of the first people asked to try out for the Canada Cup team in 1984, had a Canada Cup behind him in 1981 where he made the team ahead of such players like Paul Coffey, Doug Wilson and Randy Carlyle, and also starred for Canada in the 1982 and 1983 World Championships, making the All-Star team.

I think the fact that he was selected for those teams reflects that he wasn't a liability defensively, or they wouldn't have taken him. Look at Mike Green this year for example, Yzerman passed on him for the olympic team because he was too much of a liability defensively.

Also, as you pointed out, it certainly helps that his partner is one of the best defenseive defensemen, and a former Norris trophy winner (as a defensive dman). Here is a quote on Howell:

Quote:
Joe Pelletier:

Although not an overly aggressive rearguard he used his hockey sense to become an extremely effective defensive player. He was quite the unsung hero, buried with the largely unsuccessful Rangers....Howell was a slick passer who always made the safe play. He was a reliable work horse who could always be counted on to bring his steady game every night of the week. A master of the poke check, his understated brilliance was certainly appreciated by his coaches and teammates, especially his goaltenders. He always was able to steer oncoming attackers to the boards and away from scoring spots.
Quote:
Emile Francis:

The thing that makes him the great hockey player he is, is that the quality of his game seldom varies. Some defensemen, they look like all-stars one night, or maybe for three games in a row, and then they tail off. But Harry, he's like the Rock of Gibraltar. Hockey is a game of mistakes, and Harry doesn't make many of them.

But your defense as a whole is certainly much better than mine, no doubt about it. I love your defense, it's arguably the best in the league. I should point out though, that while my blueline isn't nearly as good, it's still a pretty decent middle-of-the-pack group. There are no significant glaring weaknesses, and all the guys on each pairing compliment each other really well (Reinhart and Howell for example). Good balance of everything, and good on the special teams with Howell-Gardiner on the PK and Lapointe-Reinhart on the PP. They can get the job done.

I should also point out that Vancouver's advantage in net is greater than Halifax's advantage on the blue line.


Last edited by hungryhungryhippy: 05-05-2010 at 06:29 PM.
hungryhungryhippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2010, 06:44 PM
  #13
hungryhungryhippy
Registered User
 
hungryhungryhippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 739
vCash: 500
So I just did a google search for "Reinhart defensive liability" and found this thread about him on HFBoards: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=180052

Some noteworthy posts from the thread:

Quote:
BM67:

Reinhart was a forward until shortly before he joined the Flames. His defense needed a lot of attention in the beginning, but I certainly don't recall him as a liability defensively.
Quote:
brianscot:

As a Bruin fan, he in someways reminded me of Ray Bourque in his quarterbacking capabilities. He also resembled Bourque with his stocky physique, strong skating and very hard shot.
Quote:
Psycho Papa Joe:

I thought he had as much talent as Al MacInnis when they played together in Calgary. The injuries destroyed what, IMO, probably should have been a HOF career. He was an incredible talent.

hungryhungryhippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2010, 08:31 PM
  #14
hungryhungryhippy
Registered User
 
hungryhungryhippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 739
vCash: 500
I don't know if anyone just caught this, but Pierre McGuire during the Boston/Philly game after the Bergeron goal:

"This is just neutral zone domination by the Bruins.... frustrating their opponent, forcing them to try and do too much... making mistakes that lead to turnovers.... another bad turnover and bergeron puts the game away"

Basically, how Vancouver wants this series to go

hungryhungryhippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2010, 01:25 PM
  #15
Stoneberg
Bored
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,672
vCash: 500
I'm sorry for my inactivity HHH, work was supposed to die down this week. I know I'm not making for a very good debate so far.

How long does this series last? I'll have a better chance to sit down for a couple hours on both Saturday and Sunday. Don't let me hold you back from making any additional points, I'll address as much as I can over the weekend.

Stoneberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2010, 03:44 PM
  #16
hungryhungryhippy
Registered User
 
hungryhungryhippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 739
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stalberg View Post
I'm sorry for my inactivity HHH, work was supposed to die down this week. I know I'm not making for a very good debate so far.

How long does this series last? I'll have a better chance to sit down for a couple hours on both Saturday and Sunday. Don't let me hold you back from making any additional points, I'll address as much as I can over the weekend.

Don't even worry about it, I don't really have much to say anyways, I can wait.

Voting day is Sunday, btw.

hungryhungryhippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2010, 04:19 PM
  #17
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,846
vCash: 500
To me, this comes down Patrick Roy. Can he overcome Halifax's advantage on forward and huge advantage on defense?

1st Lines:
- I'd have to give the slight edge to Vancouver.
- Offensively, it's pretty close, but I really don't like Middleton on a first line.
- Defensively, it's a slight edge to Vancouver, since Bure drags his line down.
- Halifax's line looks very soft...

2nd Lines:
- This is a huge edge for Halifax!
- To me, the Martin-Richard-Smith line is the best line in the series... so I'd make them your first line.
- Is Vancouver really using the Gilmour line as their checking line? Seriously?

Dreakmur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2010, 04:46 PM
  #18
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,558
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
To me, this comes down Patrick Roy. Can he overcome Halifax's advantage on forward and huge advantage on defense?

1st Lines:
- I'd have to give the slight edge to Vancouver.
- Offensively, it's pretty close, but I really don't like Middleton on a first line.
- Defensively, it's a slight edge to Vancouver, since Bure drags his line down.
- Halifax's line looks very soft...

2nd Lines:
- This is a huge edge for Halifax!
- To me, the Martin-Richard-Smith line is the best line in the series... so I'd make them your first line.
- Is Vancouver really using the Gilmour line as their checking line? Seriously?
I'm not sure who has the advantage at forward. To me, it's quite close at first glance.

The Martin-Richard-Smith is very good at both ends of the ice, but there is no real dominant goal scorer on the line. It would be interesting if one of the GMs here did a detailed analysis of the Schmdit vs. the Richard line, but at first glance, I think the Schmidt line is more dangerous offensively, assuming Jacques Lemaire lets them think about offense.

Bure isn't going to be allowed to play the way he did in Florida, cherrypicking his way to leading the league in goals by wide margins, but he's still the best goal scorer on either team.

Edit: Though Martin and Smith never had a center as good of a playmaker as Henri Richard. Claude Provost's goalscoring went through the roof when he was paired with Henri!

I also think that Klukay/Luce is the best combo on either team's lower line by a good margin. And knowing Jacques Lemaire, he's going to use them a lot!


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 05-06-2010 at 05:04 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2010, 05:20 PM
  #19
hungryhungryhippy
Registered User
 
hungryhungryhippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 739
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
To me, this comes down Patrick Roy. Can he overcome Halifax's advantage on forward and huge advantage on defense?

1st Lines:
- I'd have to give the slight edge to Vancouver.
- Offensively, it's pretty close, but I really don't like Middleton on a first line.
- Defensively, it's a slight edge to Vancouver, since Bure drags his line down.
- Halifax's line looks very soft...

2nd Lines:
- This is a huge edge for Halifax!
- To me, the Martin-Richard-Smith line is the best line in the series... so I'd make them your first line.
- Is Vancouver really using the Gilmour line as their checking line? Seriously?
1. Halifax's "advatange" up front is highly, highly, debatable. I'm sure Stalberg and I will get into it later on... Two very, very close forward groups that were built strong down the middle. AT the end of the day, I think Vancouver's top two lines will be more effective though, because:

- Schmidt can dominate Boucher when the matchup happens, so in a sense Boucher is the odd man out amongst the centers.

- Schmidt is the most dominant forward in the series.

- Bure is the best goal scorer in the series.

- Vancouver's forwards are better defensive players.

- The style of game in this series, with the defensive-minded hockey and the trap and all, really favors Vancouver's forwards. Vancouver's forward group was made to play this style of hockey, while Halifax's forwards (especially the first line) were not. A line like Boucher's, can really be rendered ineffective in a series like this where he won't get the opportunities/time/space in the offensive that he needs to be at his best. A guy like Bure though, can benefit greatly from the trap (offensively) by cherry-picking interceptions in the neutral zone or pouncing on the turnovers and utilizing his explosive speed to get 1-on-1 opportunities in the offensive zone.

2. When comparing forward lines, it's ESSENTIAL to keep the dynamic of the match-up and the context of the series in mind. There are a lot of factors in a best-of-7 playoff series that make certain players more effective, and certain players less effective.

3. Gilmour's line is not "the" checking line like it was last series where I altered the lineup to have my 2nd line take on Toronto's 1st line. I think you're getting a bit confused here, that was just a 1 series thing. Really, though, all 3 of my top lines are going to act as checking lines.

5. I'll have to stress this point again, Vancouver's advantage in net is far greater than Halifax's advantage on the blue line. The difference between Esposito and Roy is day and night, I don't think there has been a bigger goalie mismatch in this year's ATD. On one side of the ice you have a top-3 goalie in the league who's playoff performances were legendary, and on the other side you have a bottom-8 goalie with an incredibly underwhelming playoff resume, no stanley cups, below .500 playoff record, a GAA that ballooned from the regular season to the playoffs, and some disastrous performances.

Roy has the potential to single-handedly win the series, Esposito has the potential to single-handedly blow the series.


Last edited by hungryhungryhippy: 05-06-2010 at 05:34 PM.
hungryhungryhippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2010, 05:41 PM
  #20
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,827
vCash: 500
Quote:
and on the other side you have a bottom-8 goalie
wrong.

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2010, 05:46 PM
  #21
hungryhungryhippy
Registered User
 
hungryhungryhippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 739
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
wrong.
Ok... bottom 10?

Bottom-3 in the playoffs though...


Last edited by hungryhungryhippy: 05-06-2010 at 08:36 PM.
hungryhungryhippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2010, 02:03 AM
  #22
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,846
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I also think that Klukay/Luce is the best combo on either team's lower line by a good margin. And knowing Jacques Lemaire, he's going to use them a lot!
He's using the Gilmour line to match up, so Klukay and Luce don't really have a role.

Dreakmur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2010, 02:07 AM
  #23
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,846
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy View Post
5. I'll have to stress this point again, Vancouver's advantage in net is far greater than Halifax's advantage on the blue line. The difference between Esposito and Roy is day and night, I don't think there has been a bigger goalie mismatch in this year's ATD. On one side of the ice you have a top-3 goalie in the league who's playoff performances were legendary, and on the other side you have a bottom-8 goalie with an incredibly underwhelming playoff resume, no stanley cups, below .500 playoff record, a GAA that ballooned from the regular season to the playoffs, and some disastrous performances.
I'm not sure it does.

You have an elite goaltender and a very mediocre blueline. He has an elite blueline and a mediocre goalie.

I'd much rather have Orr and Esposito than Roy and Lapointe.

Dreakmur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2010, 02:22 AM
  #24
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,558
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
He's using the Gilmour line to match up, so Klukay and Luce don't really have a role.
His coach is Jacques Lemaire. Checking players on top 3 lines will always have large roles.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2010, 06:39 AM
  #25
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,846
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
His coach is Jacques Lemaire. Checking players on top 3 lines will always have large roles.
Yeah, but they kind of take away from each other's effectiveness. They can't all be checkers - somebody needs to score.

Dreakmur is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:32 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.