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ATD 2010, Part VI

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Old
04-10-2010, 07:22 PM
  #101
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Always ready to hear a good argument.
The short version is that the numbers are too small. When the playoffs are only a few games long and scoring 1 point gets a defenseman a Top 10 finish, it's hard to say that it's meaningful.

IMO, a better way to represent early era playoff stats (especially among defensemen who had really low absolute numbers) is their cumulative numbers over a set time period.

Example, my Albert Leduc was tied for the lead in playoff points among defensemen with 14 (I think) over the course of his prime, a period of quite a few years. It cherrypicks a time period, but it means something statistically. I didn't both to post which years he had 3 points and which years he had 1 point.

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Old
04-10-2010, 07:23 PM
  #102
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The problem with being 2nd in points or whatever with only 3 points is that the sample size is so small that a single play (or fluke play) can up your total by 50%. You could give the puck to your team-mate behind your own net, have him skate the length of the ice and score, and instantly move into the defensive scoring race. That "fluke" play would have far less impact in a situation where defenders are scoring even just 10 points.

I'd be more inclined to say that the guy with 100 points is twice as good as the guy with 50, than to say the guy with 2 points is twice as good as the guy with 1.

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Old
04-10-2010, 09:40 PM
  #103
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Nighthawks select Bill Thoms, C.

Last pick coming shortly. Sorry, haven't seen a computer in two days.

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Old
04-10-2010, 11:08 PM
  #104
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With our 22nd selection, the 640th overall in this year All-Time Draft, the Detroit Falcons are extremely happy to select defenseman Wilfred Arthur Coutu



Nickname: Billy, Beaver, The Butcher
Height: 5'11''
Weight: 190 lbs
Position: Defense
Shoots: Left
Date of Birth: March 01, 1892
Place of Birth: North Bay, Ontario, Canada
Date of Death: February 25, 1977 (Age: 84)

Stanley Cup Champion (1924)
Stanley Cup Finalist (1917, 1919*, 1925)
Team Captain (1925-1926)

Top-10 Penalty Minutes (3rd, 7th, 8th, 8th)

Top-10 Scoring Among defenseman (7th, 7th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 9th, 10th, 10th)
Top-10 Goalscoring among defenseman (6th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 10th)
Top-10 Assist among defenseman (5th, 6th, 8th, 8th, 10th, 10th)
Top-10 Penalty Minutes among defenseman (2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 9th)


Top-10 Playoff Goalscoring (8th)
Top-10 Playoff Assist (9th)
Top-10 Playoff Penalty Minutes (1st, 8th)

Top-10 Playoff Scoring Among defenseman (3rd, 6th)
Top-10 Playoff Goalscoring among defenseman (1st)
Top-10 Playoff Assist among defenseman (1st)
Top-10 Playoff Penalty Minutes among defenseman (1st, 4th, 5th)


- In 1916, Coutu won the U.S.A. Senior championship with the Michigan Soo Indians
- On November 24th, 1916, Coutu signed as a free agent by Montreal Canadiens in the National Hockey Association
- In 1919, Coutu alongside Joe Hall, Edouard Lalonde, Jack McDonald and manager George Kennedy contracted influenza and were hospitalized. Teammate Joe Hall died during Game 5 and the Stanley Cup finals was cancelled.
- On November 27th, 1920, Coutu was loaned to the Hamilton Tigers by the Montreal Canadiens as part of trade of Jack McDonald, Harry Mummery and Dave Ritchie for Jack Coughlin, Goldie Prodgers and Joe Matte
- On January 12nd 1924,Coutu missed seven games due to a broken wrist suffered in a game against the Toronto St. Patricks
- On January 19th 1926, he was suspended one game and fined 100$ by theNHL for tripping referee Jerry Laflamme against the Ottawa Senators
- At the end of Game 4 of the 1927 Stanley Cup, Coutu started a bench-clearing brawl, apparently at the request of coach Art Ross, by assaulting referee Jerry Laflamme and tackling referee Billy Bell. As a result, he was expelled from the NHL for life. On October 8th, 1929, the suspension was lifted so that Coutu could play in the minor leagues. He never played in the NHL again, although he was reinstated in 1932–33 at the insistence of Leo Dandurand
- During the 1933-34 season, Coutu played one game in goal for the Providence Reds in the Canadian American Hockey League, allowing 12 goals
- Coutu was a longtime Minor Pro Coach and referee after his playing days

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs Heroes
Somewhere along the line, Billy Couture became Billy Coutu, but one thing that remained the same was the man's temper and penchant for taking it out on his opponents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OurHistory.Canadiens
THE MERE PRESENCE OF BILLY COUTURE DETERRED OPPONENTS FROM TAKING LIBERTIES WITH THE TEAM’S STARS.

In his heyday, Billy Couture was one of the most feared men who laced up the skates in the rough and tumble world of professional hockey. Born in North Bay, Ontario in 1892, the 5-foot-11, 190-pound defenseman spent a decade defending his territory against his opponents using any means necessary.

The NHL set up shop the next fall. With Couture on defense and his well-developed mean streak often coming to the forefront.

With Joe Hall’s death, Couture became the Canadiens’ undisputed enforcer, a most effective deterrent to those who might choose to take liberties with the team’s marquee players. Loaned to the Hamilton Tigers for the 1920-21 season, Couture played against his former Montreal mates with the same ferocity he had shown while wearing their colors.

Returning to Montreal at the beginning of 1921-22, Couture once again began making life miserable for Habs’ opponents. Not allowing himself to be limited by the rules of play, no tactic was too underhanded or brutal as Couture made sure that his opponents worried about more than simply preventing the likes of Morenz, Joliat, and Boucher from scoring.

In the spring of 1924, the Canadiens made their way back into contention for the Stanley Cup. With Georges Vézina in nets and Couture creating mayhem on the blue line, Montreal was almost unimpeded in their efforts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail of the Stanley Cup, vol.1
One of the roughest defence men in hockey, particularly when paired with Sprague Cleghorn on the Canadiens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Hockey
In Montreal, Cleghorn was paired with fellow archfiend Billy Coutu to form what was arguably the most frightening defensive duo ever seen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fanatique.ca
(Corbeau) will have the distinction to have form the first version of the ''Big Three'' with the Montreal Canadiens with all-star defenseman Sprague Cleghorn and Billy Coutu. Moreover than all three had lightning-like shots, all three of them measured at least 5'10'' et weight more than 190 pounds each.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Globe and Mail; November 20th 1924
Patrick Offers to Trade Frank Boucher for Coutu

Vancouver, B.C Nov 19- Frank Patrick, owner of he Vancouver Maroons hockey team, has wired Leo Dandurand, offering to trade Frank Boucher for one year only for Billy Coutu, Canadiens defence man. Patrick, it is understood, make the offer owing to Boucher's desire to play hockey in the East.
If Dandurand does not approve, then Boucher will play here or remain out of hockey this season, it is stated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Globe and Mail; December 29th 1936
Coutu, a native of Sault Ste. Marie was a turbulant figure in hockey wars for years, and suspensions and fines made no visible impression on him. He was not a great defenseman, but he was better than average, and his reputation was such that attackers were always on the alert when he hove into sight. For several seasons he and Sprague Cleghorn were Canadiens' regular defensemen, and they certainly made the road to George Vezina's net the rockiest one to travel in all the history of hockey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Globe and Mail; October 18th 1937
Coutu, for many years a shining in NHL is making his debut as a manager.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Globe and Mail; December 13th 1938
Billy Coutu, one-time firebrand of major league hockey.

- ''He might get overlooked because he played with Cleghorn in term of how dirty and nasty of a player he was.'' - Bob Duff, historian

- ''He was a rough, rough dude and I think a lot of people steered clear of him. He was one of those guys people thought 'Gee, you'd better not bother him because there's no telling what's going to happen.' He was a pretty good player, but while the others were doing the rushing, he was staying back and doing the dirty work.'' - Ernie Fitzsimmons, historian


Sites:
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=12352
http://www.sihrhockey.org/member_pla..._id=796&mode=2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Coutu
http://theryancokeexperience.wordpre...p-100-habs-48/
http://www.habsinsideout.com/main/2068
http://ourhistory.canadiens.com/player/Billy-Couture
http://www.fanatique.ca/lnh/bert-cor...blie+3457.html

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Old
04-10-2010, 11:25 PM
  #105
seventieslord
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OK, so I just spent 5 hours painting and here's the problem I have with such small numbers:

Suppose it wasn't a whole playoff. Suppose it was one game between two teams, and it was a 9-8 final. And a player who had two assists (along with two other guys) happened to be the "3rd-highest scoring defenseman" of the game.

You would not conclude that he was the 3rd-best offensive defenseman based on that one game. In the same way, drawing the conclusion that someone performed the 3rd-best offensively among defensemen over a playoff because he had 2 points, behind only a guy with 3 and a guy with 4, may seem like it makes more sense, but statistically, it is just as wrong.

I don't know much about confidence intervals but I'm sure someone who does could draw up a model for it quite easily based on game-by-game results and final rankings, to basically show that the results of one game can't be confidently extrapolated to a full season. If you looked at a game summary of a 4-1 win and saw that someone was 2nd on the team with two points, you would be more likely incorrect than correct if you speculated that that player probably would finish the season 2nd on the team in scoring.

Small sample sizes and tiny numbers don't jive.

I don't just do this to you either, EB. There was a season where one D-man had 5 playoff points and 5 others were tied with 1, and LF was trying to say that guy was "2nd in playoff scoring among defensemen". He heard it from me, too.

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Old
04-10-2010, 11:27 PM
  #106
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
With our 22nd selection, the 640th overall in this year All-Time Draft, the Detroit Falcons are extremely happy to select defenseman Wilfred Arthur Coutu



Nickname: Billy, Beaver, The Butcher
Height: 5'11''
Weight: 190 lbs
Position: Defense
Shoots: Left
Date of Birth: March 01, 1892
Place of Birth: North Bay, Ontario, Canada
Date of Death: February 25, 1977 (Age: 84)

Stanley Cup Champion (1924)
Stanley Cup Finalist (1917, 1919*, 1925)
Team Captain (1925-1926)

Top-10 Penalty Minutes (3rd, 7th, 8th, 8th)

Top-10 Scoring Among defenseman (7th, 7th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 9th, 10th, 10th)
Top-10 Goalscoring among defenseman (6th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 10th)
Top-10 Assist among defenseman (5th, 6th, 8th, 8th, 10th, 10th)
Top-10 Penalty Minutes among defenseman (2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 9th)


Top-10 Playoff Goalscoring (8th)
Top-10 Playoff Assist (9th)
Top-10 Playoff Penalty Minutes (1st, 8th)

Top-10 Playoff Scoring Among defenseman (3rd, 6th)
Top-10 Playoff Goalscoring among defenseman (1st)
Top-10 Playoff Assist among defenseman (1st)
Top-10 Playoff Penalty Minutes among defenseman (1st, 4th, 5th)


- In 1916, Coutu won the U.S.A. Senior championship with the Michigan Soo Indians
- On November 24th, 1916, Coutu signed as a free agent by Montreal Canadiens in the National Hockey Association
- In 1919, Coutu alongside Joe Hall, Edouard Lalonde, Jack McDonald and manager George Kennedy contracted influenza and were hospitalized. Teammate Joe Hall died during Game 5 and the Stanley Cup finals was cancelled.
- On November 27th, 1920, Coutu was loaned to the Hamilton Tigers by the Montreal Canadiens as part of trade of Jack McDonald, Harry Mummery and Dave Ritchie for Jack Coughlin, Goldie Prodgers and Joe Matte
- On January 12nd 1924,Coutu missed seven games due to a broken wrist suffered in a game against the Toronto St. Patricks
- On January 19th 1926, he was suspended one game and fined 100$ by theNHL for tripping referee Jerry Laflamme against the Ottawa Senators
- At the end of Game 4 of the 1927 Stanley Cup, Coutu started a bench-clearing brawl, apparently at the request of coach Art Ross, by assaulting referee Jerry Laflamme and tackling referee Billy Bell. As a result, he was expelled from the NHL for life. On October 8th, 1929, the suspension was lifted so that Coutu could play in the minor leagues. He never played in the NHL again, although he was reinstated in 1932–33 at the insistence of Leo Dandurand
- During the 1933-34 season, Coutu played one game in goal for the Providence Reds in the Canadian American Hockey League, allowing 12 goals
- Coutu was a longtime Minor Pro Coach and referee after his playing days




















- ''He might get overlooked because he played with Cleghorn in term of how dirty and nasty of a player he was.'' - Bob Duff, historian

- ''He was a rough, rough dude and I think a lot of people steered clear of him. He was one of those guys people thought 'Gee, you'd better not bother him because there's no telling what's going to happen.' He was a pretty good player, but while the others were doing the rushing, he was staying back and doing the dirty work.'' - Ernie Fitzsimmons, historian


Sites:
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=12352
http://www.sihrhockey.org/member_pla..._id=796&mode=2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Coutu
http://theryancokeexperience.wordpre...p-100-habs-48/
http://www.habsinsideout.com/main/2068
http://ourhistory.canadiens.com/player/Billy-Couture
http://www.fanatique.ca/lnh/bert-cor...blie+3457.html
So he was definitely rough and tough, which we were all pretty sure of. The numbers also tell us his offense was very poor. The other, and most important aspect of a defenseman's game, is how well he defends, and I didn't know a thing about Coutu's defense before, and I still don't.

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Old
04-10-2010, 11:35 PM
  #107
seventieslord
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Quote:
Top-10 Scoring Among defenseman (7th, 7th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 9th, 10th, 10th)
I really hate to have to grill you on this too, but this is misleading (and I don't mean deliberately). The NHL was a 3-4-team league (half-league, actually, at this point) and teams rarely used any defenseman other than their starting two. If he wasn't in the top-8 then he wasn't even in the top-2 on an average team.

Coutu had three offensive seasons worth talking about at all.

1921: He was 7th with 12 points. Top-2 had 27 and 20. (there were 4 teams)
1922: He was 9th with 7 points. Top-2 had 35 and 26. (there were 4 teams)
1923: He was 9th with 7 points. Top-2 had 23 and 19. (there were 4 teams)

The other 4-6 point seasons were complete write-offs offensively, but they are included as though they are significant. And the three above are nothing special, either. By modern-day standards, the top scoring defenseman should have about 70 points. Percentage wise, Coutu's three best offensive seasons relate to the leader as follows: 44%. 20%. 30%. In modern times, these are like 31, 14, and 21-point seasons.

(One of your 8ths should be a 9th - you forgot Randall in one year - and one of your 10ths was not a 10th - he came 11th)


Last edited by seventieslord: 04-10-2010 at 11:43 PM.
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Old
04-10-2010, 11:43 PM
  #108
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There's enough evidence that Coutu is a decent 6/7 in an all-time context. He was paired with Cleghorn for years which means top pairing minutes and no one is arguing he is a 2nd pairing guy in an all-time context. He won the cup, he was chosen to be captain, he wasn't a marginal player, he made an impact even if a limited role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OurHistory.Canadiens
In the spring of 1924, the Canadiens made their way back into contention for the Stanley Cup. With Georges Vézina in nets and Couture creating mayhem on the blue line, Montreal was almost unimpeded in their efforts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fanatique.ca
(Corbeau) will have the distinction to have form the first version of the ''Big Three'' with the Montreal Canadiens with all-star defenseman Sprague Cleghorn and Billy Coutu. Moreover than all three had lightning-like shots, all three of them measured at least 5'10'' and weight more than 190 pounds each.

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Old
04-11-2010, 12:19 AM
  #109
arrbez
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Where are we in the drafting? It's always hard to tell by the end.

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Old
04-11-2010, 02:33 AM
  #110
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I also agree about not passing off 2 point playoffs, etc. as a "2nd or 3rd in defenseman playoff scoring". At the VERY LEAST, put a disclaimer beside those kinds of rankings and say that he only had 2-3 points or something. My biggest concern is other inexperienced GMs doing it the same way and making the same misleading judgments.

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Old
04-11-2010, 04:57 AM
  #111
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
There's enough evidence that Coutu is a decent 6/7 in an all-time context. He was paired with Cleghorn for years which means top pairing minutes and no one is arguing he is a 2nd pairing guy in an all-time context. He won the cup, he was chosen to be captain, he wasn't a marginal player, he made an impact even if a limited role.
- I asked you earlier how you were sure he was paired with Cleghorn for years and you never answered. They were on the same team for five of Coutu's 11 seasons - 22, 23, 24, 25, and 27. There were other defensemen on those teams. A couple of times other defensemen scored more points, indicating possibly higher usage. So how do you know he was getting top pairing minutes?

- Your two quotes say that a) he was tough. (we knew that). and b) he had a lightning-like shot (but apparently had bad luck with it as he provided abysmal levels of offense, with 8 defensemen scoring more goals than him over the course of his career, 6 of them more than doubling his per-game total)

- We still don't know how he defended. At all. Not a single thing that said he was good defensively or broke up plays, or anything.

- He can't be a good #6 defenseman because that would mean you can't name 180 defensemen with better credentials to back up their selection (awards, honours, stats, defensive and physical ability, quotes supporting greatness from books or newspapers). EB did his best and the case that he was able to make was not strong.

I'm of course open to the possibility that he is an ATD player, but as of now, the case that has been presented for him does not prove that he is. I know Coutu's one of your boys, but look at it objectively. The numbers show he provided offense at a level that translates to about 15 points a season in modern times. He was tough, a feared thug, even. And he may or may not have been good defensively. Sounds like Ken Daneyko, except we KNOW Ken Daneyko was rock solid defensively. We don't know this about Coutu.

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Old
04-11-2010, 05:25 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Where are we in the drafting? It's always hard to tell by the end.
If I'm not mistaken, Nighthawks came in and picked Thoms for his 679th pick, and just needs to make pick #703 and then 720 selections have been made.

(Thoms actually had a pretty good shot at "best offensive player available when he was picked")

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Old
04-11-2010, 02:28 PM
  #113
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The Golden Seals have announced a change behind the bench, Jaroslav Pitner will switch places with hothead Don Cherry.

Head coach, Jaroslav Pitner
Assistant coach, Don Cherry

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04-11-2010, 04:50 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
The Golden Seals have announced a change behind the bench, Jaroslav Pitner will switch places with hothead Don Cherry.

Head coach, Jaroslav Pitner
Assistant coach, Don Cherry
Don Cherry should be the head coach. He provides nothing as an assistant.

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04-11-2010, 05:22 PM
  #115
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With the 709th pick in ATD2010, The Regina Pats are pleased to select:

Pit Martin, C/RW



- 5'9", 170 lbs
- Stanley Cup Finalist (1964, 1971, 1973)
- Bill Masterton Memorial Trophy (1970)
- Top-20 in Goals Twice (16th, 18th)
- Top-20 in Assists (4th, 8th, 13th)
- Top-20 in Points 4 Times (11th, 14th, 15th, 19th)
- Top-15 in Playoff Goals Twice (2nd, 13th)
- Top-15 in Playoff Assists Three Times (10th, 12th, 15th)
- Top-15 in Playoff Points Twice (4th, 14th)
- Placed 7th, 8th, 8th in All-Star voting among centers
- Career Adjusted +114
- 4-Time NHL All-Star Game Participant (1971, 1972, 1973, 1974)
- 1st or 2nd in PPGA among Chicago forwards for 4 straight years (1974-1977)

Quote:
Originally Posted by loh.net
...Martin joined the NHL full-time in 1963-64, and played with the Red Wings, Boston Bruins, Chicago Black Hawks, and Vancouver Canucks during his sixteen year career, totalling 809 points in his 1,101 games played. During a dismal 1968-69 season where the Hawks finished out of the playoffs, Martin denounced many of his teammates, claiming that only three "wear their uniforms with any desire to win."

The next season, the team rebounded, finishing in first place with Martin contributing 30 goals and 33 assists. Martin won the Masterton Trophy that season, the only major award he'd win during his NHL career. Although only 5'8" and 165 pounds, the rugged two-way forward proved that he could leave his mark in the NHL by playing hard every shift of every game.

Martin is often remembered for being part of one of the most one-sided trades in NHL history. In May 1967, he, along with ***** and ****** , went from Boston to Chicago for Phil Esposito, Ken Hodge, and Fred Stanfield.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
A small but speedy NHLer for parts of 17 seasons, Pit Martin was a fine player who was overshadowed by the player he was traded for.

On May 15, 1967 Pit, Jack Norris and Gilles Marotte left Boston for Chicago in exchange for Phil Esposito, Ken Hodge and Fred Stanfield in one of the most lopsided trades in NHL history. The Bruins went on to become a two-time Stanley Cup championships while the Hawks had quiet glimpses of success. Moreover, the trade was broken down more into Martin for Esposito - one promising center for another. Espo went on to a Hall of Fame career including 4 Art Ross scoring championships. Martin, while an effective player for Chicago for over 10 years, had a quiet career in comparison.

...The powerful and agile skater was traded from the Red Wings to the Boston Bruins midway through the 1965-66 season, where he spent a season and a half. Pit then moved to the Chicago Blackhawks in 1967 where he played another 11 years. He eventually won over Chicago fans with is speedy attack and insistent digging for loose pucks in the corners.

...Martin was able to overcome his rocky reception and become a Hawks fan favorite. He found particular success on the MPH Line with Jim Pappin and Dennis Hull for the better part of six seasons.

"We, as a trio, worked very well together. We all got along. I think the biggest thing was that none of us were selfish. We had the same type of philosophy about the game. We were serious about it and we wanted to be recognized as good hockey players. We didn't care who scored the goals as long as our line produced," said Martin.

Martin enjoyed several good seasons in Chicago. Eight times in his career he scored at least 20 goals, and three times at least 30. His best season came in 1972-73 when he scored 29 goals and 61 assists for a career high 90 points. Later in the playoffs he scored 10 goals and 16 points to help the Chicago Blackhawks advance to the Stanley Cup finals.

The Quebec native finished off his pro career with two seasons in Vancouver. Pit retired from the NHL with 324 goals, 485 assists and 809 points in 1,101 regular season games while adding 27 goals and 58 points in 100 playoff contests.

While his career was not nearly as decorated as the man he was traded for, Martin was fiercely proud of his 1970 Masterton trophy award for dedication to the game of hockey. Martin called it "the most important trophy I'll ever receive."
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Icehouse Gang
Reputed by many to be the fastest skater in the NHL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fischler's Hockey Encyclopedia
Has been around the NHL for quite a while, always doing a superior job at the center position... Everyone thinks that Chicago got robbed, and that may be, but Martin is a damn competent centerman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by canada.com
"He was a great little player, very competitive," said retired Toronto Maple Leafs goalie Johnny Bower. "I remembered he lit the lamp quite a few times behind me. He was a good, clean player. A good faceoff man."

Former Wings teammate Marcel Pronovost said the five-foot-eight, 165-pound Martin was typical of a type of player that every team had in the Original Six era.

"He was very quick," said Pronovost, who still scouts for the New Jersey Devils. "He was a very clever player. There wasn't an ounce of meanness in him. His game was finesse. He was similar to Henri Richard and Dave Keon. There was a whole group of guys like that in the league then."

Hall of Fame NHL linesman Matt Pavelich dropped the puck countless times on faceoffs with Martin and recalls him being a quiet, hard-working player.

"He wasn't like Stan Mikita or Bobby Clarke," said Pavelich of two notorious chatterboxes. "He just did his job. He had real good hands and he never backed down from anyone. He was small, but he wasn't timid. He'd go right into the corners. I just remember him as a real nice guy."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Chicago Style
One of the Blackhawks' valuable forwards during the 1970s... Known for being a good two-way player... a swift, powerful skater, quick and adept around the net, and an insistent digger in the corners...
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chicago Black Hawks Story
He quickly earned a reputation for skating speed and hustle. "Here I'm expected to do the forechecking and as before, but then go deep on defense. It was hard at first, but it started working out for me. I began to get a lot of chances... I think it's a better system." In his second year with the Hawks, Martin clearly mastered the tactics advocated by Reay, gained confidence, and did so well that he could speak out on what he felt to be the shortcomings of the team. His words played a part in the regeneration of the Hawks... In the stretch drive for first place it was Pappin and martin who came up with the big goals, game after game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by None Against!
Pit really does believe what he says is right. And he was certainly right in pointing out that everyone on the same team should be treated the same. It's just common sense - which, incidentally, Pit exhibits a lot of on the ice. He can also take off from a dead stop faster than any player I know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rangers, The Bruins and the End Of an Era (interview with Earl Ingarfield)
Q: Who were some of the tougher centers to win faceoffs against for you?

A: Oh boy. Well I guess Delvecchio. Another fellow I had trouble with was Pit Martin that played with Boston and Chicago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chicago Black Hawks Story
Tommy Ivan retorted: "I wish people would give Martin a chance. Never try to judge the value of a trade when it is first completed... The Bruins received some badly needed punch, and we received a top defenseman, a great center, and a potentially good goalie." Time was to prove Ivan right in respect to Martin, who did turn out to be a superb center.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey In the Seventies: The Game We Knew
Martin became a consistent scorer of 20 or more goals... Never afraid to speak his mind... A small man but a great skater...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Minute Of Play
The Hawks were still trying to find the elusive centre for Bobby Hull and felt the man they needed was the smooth, slick Martin, an easy skater with darting speed, a playmaker and a young 20-goal scorer who could keep pace with the Golden Jet... Martin was a quick buzzing centreman who could pass to either side, forehand of backhand. Despite his size, he was constantly in and out of the opposition goalmouth for rebounds and loose pucks. He was a pure playmaker who had the added danger of being deadly accurate on his own... He was reunited with Jim Pappin and Dennis Hull on many occasions, but proved he could be every bit as fleet and graceful with less-familiar linemakes, and could still make those deft moves and sneaky passes to anyone who wanted to play... but with the exception of the notoreity of the big trade, he never received the recognition he deserved... "Next year (1979) I went to training camp, still ready to play. The desire was there. Nobody could outskate me, and goddammit, I made the land training, made the plays on the ice, but they didn't renew me... As far as I'm concerned, THEY retired ME. I wasn't ready to go."...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroes: Stars Of Hockey's Golden Era
Best remembered for his playmaking abilities at centre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Great Book Of Hockey
Two of the best defensive centers of the 1970s were Chicago's Pit Martin and the Rangers' Walt Tkaczuk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, February 25, 1966
Milt Schmidt was discussing the improvement of the Bruins... "Hockey today is a game of skating and checking. Two players stand out: Pit Martin and John McKenzie. They can both skate and they've got the speed to come back to help on defense. We're doing a much better job of getting the puck out of our end. I'll predict right now that Martin is going to be in the superstar bracket within two years. He isn't very big, but neither is Henri Richard, and like Richard he skates with authority. He's providing a lot of excitement for our fans these days... There doesn't seem to be anything he can't do. Besides being a good skater, he handles the puck pretty well, and he's proven that he can score. he's got all the shots - wrist, slap, backhand - andhe shoots a lot."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owosso-Argus Press, April 6, 1970
MARTIN SPARKED HAWKS' VAULT FROM LAST TO FIRST: Martin, who chastized the Hawks' star system and raised a furor, was credited with blowing the whistle and forcing the Hawks to play team hockey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bangor Daily News, December 29, 1971
His great breaking speed and scoring potential helped catapult Hull to his record 58-goal peak... "Pit takes a load off both Hull and ****, because the opposition has to regard Martin just as dangerous with his great skating and fine shot", says Reay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, January 15, 1972
"I think Martin has reached the great potential he never realized he had", said Bobby Hull.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro Hockey Handbook 1972
Just a little guy but holds his own against every center he faces... He is credited with much of Hawks' success after popping off in training camp before 1969-70 season...
Quote:
Originally Posted by The World Almanac Guide To Pro Hockey 1974-75, NHL Correspondents' Poll
BEST PLAYMAKER - Pit Martin - 8th

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04-11-2010, 05:23 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Don Cherry should be the head coach. He provides nothing as an assistant.
I hate to see rookie GMs flip flop as people give them different opinions, but I think Cherry should be the head coach too. He won't want to serve under a European, while Pitner would be much more likely to be humble enough to serve under Cherry.

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04-11-2010, 05:28 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I hate to see rookie GMs flip flop as peopel give them different opinions, but I think Cherry should be the head coach too. He won't want to serve under a European, while Pitner would be much more likely to be humble enough to serve under Cherry.
I just think the head guy has to be the stronger personality.

The assistant should be the tactician or the specialist.

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04-12-2010, 09:45 AM
  #118
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New Haven Nighthawks select Moose Goheen, Defenseman/Rover.

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04-12-2010, 11:18 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Nighthawks View Post
New Haven Nighthawks select Moose Goheen, Defenseman/Rover.
Very good pick to finish off the draft.

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04-12-2010, 11:44 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthawks View Post
New Haven Nighthawks select Moose Goheen, Defenseman/Rover.
I'm glad to see him get taken, definitely deserving of it.

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04-13-2010, 10:36 AM
  #121
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Friday is Voting Day

Send to seventieslord via PM your rankings of the Red Fisher Conference: Jim Robson Division (1st to 8th) and Foster Hewitt Division (1st to 8th)

Send to me, VanIslander via PM your rankings of the Jim Coleman Conference: Bob Cole Division (1st to 7th) and René Lecavalier Division (1st to 7th).

If you cannot vote on Friday then notify me via PM that you will either Thursday or Saturday. It is every team's responsibility to have at least one of its GMs (in cases of co-GMs) vote. RANK YOUR OWN TEAM (presumably first). If a team has not submitted a ranking of each division then that team suffers in the rankings because that's one less 1st place vote it will get. Vote for all four divisions, ranking the teams within the division, based on one's assessment of its strength over the course of an entire regular season against other teams in its division. Do NOT consider playoff prowess, as that comes later in the playoff match-ups; consider the backup goalie, 7th defenseman and extra forwards as the long regular season is exactly when each and every team has to use them.

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04-13-2010, 01:26 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Do NOT consider playoff prowess, as that comes later in the playoff match-ups; consider the backup goalie, 7th defenseman and extra forwards as the long regular season is exactly when each and every team has to use them.
Thank you for stressing this part.

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04-13-2010, 01:31 PM
  #123
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Everyone, please update your team roster in the roster thread. Nobody is going to go hunting for your latest update in the lineup assassination thread when it comes time to vote on team rankings.

Edit: That includes PP and PK units.


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04-14-2010, 11:58 PM
  #124
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With the 712th pick in ATD2010, The Regina Pats are proud to select:

Glen Wesley, D



- Stanley Cup (2006)
- Stanley Cup Finalist (1988, 1990, 2002)
- 537 Points in 1457 NHL games
- 52 points in 169 Playoff games
- NHL All-Rookie Team (1988)
- Played in NHL All-Star Game (1989)
- Top-16 in points by defensemen twice (13th, 16th)
- Top-10 in playoff scoring among defensemen three times (3rd, 7th, 9th)
- 483 PPGA in career, never less than 15 in a season
- Career adjusted +70

Quote:
Originally Posted by loh.net
Wesley played 79 games that rookie season and scored 39 points. He was named an All-Rookie Team defenceman. In the playoffs, he helped the Bruins win the Prince of Wales Trophy before losing to the Edmonton Oilers in the Stanley Cup finals.

In 1988-89, Wesley scored 19 goals and 54 points from the blueline. He also played in his first mid-season All-Star Game.

In 1989-90, he scored 36 points as the Bruins won the Adams Division season title. In the playoffs, Wesley and the Bruins won the Prince of Wales Trophy before losing once again to the Oilers in the Stanley Cup finals.

On August 26, 1994, Wesley was traded to the Hartford Whalers for three first-round draft picks (1995, 1996, and 1997) .... In 2001-02, Wesley was a key component on the Hurricane blue line as the team reached the Stanley Cup final for the first time in team history. After knocking off the New Jersey Devils, Montreal Canadiens and Toronto Maple Leafs, Carolina fell in five games to the Detroit Red Wings.

... Wesley's steady play on the Carolina blue line continued in 2003-04 as he was a +18 after 74 games with the club. (the club was predominantly minus and the next best was +6)

Following the lockout, the experienced veteran entered his 12th NHL playoff season. Wesley played in all of the Hurricane's post season games, earning his first Stanley Cup with the franchise.

Wesley won a silver medal for Canada at the 1996 World Championships.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
Wesley was a quiet, underrated NHL defenseman for 20 seasons in the NHL. He is perhaps the most popular player in Carolina Hurricanes history.

Showing poise beyond his years, Wesley broke into the NHL with the Boston Bruins in 1987-88... The Bruins did not hesitate to included him in their line up. After all, the great Raymond Bourque was in his prime, and would serve as a great mentor. Wesley had an amazing rookie year, being named to the All Rookie team after a season of 7 goals and 37 points. He was an absolute standout in his very first Stanley Cup playoffs that spring. He scored 6 goals and 14 points in leading the Bruins all the way to the finals against eventual winners Edmonton.

The Red Deer native exploded for 19 goals and 54 points in his second season, but somehow there was always this sense that he was being shoe-horned into an offensive role that he really was not suited for. He was an amazing skater and a gifted breakout passer, but for the most part he was just really good at most aspects of the game - but not elite. His offensive totals were inflated somewhat by playing alongside Bourque, especially on the power play.

That is no knock by any means. The Bruins realized this and cut back on his offensive play time and let him evolve into a truly multi-dimensional defenseman. He was the consummate professional - smart, positional defender that was hard to sneak by even though he did not punish anyone physically, and good at headmanning the attack or even joining it at the right times. He rarely made mistakes.

Wesley was traded by the money-tight Bruins in the summer of 1994. The Hartford Whalers, seeking a veteran to guide newcomer Chris Pronger, made an offer that was just too good for the Bruins to pass up - first round picks in 1995, 1996 and 1997.

Interestingly, even though the Bruins draft NHL players with the picks, they went into a tailspin without Wesley. Bourque was getting past his prime and without Wesley the Bruins never really had the same depth on the blue line to help him out.

Wesley in the mean time went on to become one of the most respected players in Hartford Whalers/Carolina Hurricanes history. He was never a standout and sometimes miscasted as a number one defenseman, but fans and especially coaches appreciated his steadying influence and consistent performance night in and night out.

He would play 13 seasons with the franchises, interrupted only by a playoff rental stint with Toronto in 2003.

The highlight of his career was definitely in 2006 when the Hurricanes won the Stanley Cup. Wesley had been fighting for the silver chalice for nearly 2 decades by that point. After getting so close in both his first and third years in the league with Boston, and again in 2002 with the 'Canes, Wesley must have thought the day would never come.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hockey News Player Bio
Is extremely reliable in the defensive zone. Shows great leadership among his fellow rearguards. Plays against top talent and usually holds his own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Scouting Report 1988-89
Wesley is a big package of finesse skills. He's a good skater with the potential to be excellent at the NHL level. Glen has a lot of power in his stride and that contributes to his speed, but he also has good footspeed and balance for agility and quickness. He can change directions well and has good acceleration and his skating backward is as good as it is forward.

He has excellent hockey sense, and that sense includes anticipation and vision. He sees the ice very well (both in the rush toward him and the rush away) and he understands a play's implications. Wesley knows how to recognize the openings and he can take advantage of them himself or help a teammate to do so... he also passes extremely well and will lead a teammate into the clear with an accurate pass that will be as strong as the situation demands... He controls and carries the puck excellently... Glen can move the puck at any speed.

All of this means he's a solid scoring threat at the offensive blueline... Wesley also has excellent shot selection, and he delivers both his slap and wrist shots quickly and accurately. All of these abilities are also evident in Wesley's defensive play. He reads the rush toward him well and has the skating tools to cut it off or angle it wide.

Wesley plays a fairly physical game, but he's not a juggernaut. He takes the body well along the boards or in front of the net, but he's not a punishing hitter. He does well with his size and strength and applies them at all times. His skating and anticipation make him a good checker in the open ice... plays a fairly complete NHL game... showed good judgment last year keeping offense in check to concentrate on defense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telegraph, October 22, 1988
Wesley's six-point game last Sunday cemented his reputation as an offensive threat, but he's already a solid defensive force. "He's got unbelievable potential offensively," said Bourque. "He's a great skater, has great skills, moves the puck really well and is big and strong. It's a matter of confidence, too. He's a confident kid. He's good now, but he's going to keep getting a lot better... He's really surprised me by the way he was playing defensively last season as a rookie and being only 19. He wants to take care of his own end... He's one of the reasons we got through Montreal and into the finals... Offensively, that's just natural for Glen, but he has learned the defense very quickly."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Scouting Report 1989-90
Strength and balance are the hallmarks of Wesley's skating... an effective defender... Controls and carries the puck excellently... contains the point excellently... reads the play very well defensively... His breakout passes are smooth and almost always the correct decisions... Wesley is still in a boy's body, but that doesn't stop him from playing like a man. He takes the body well along the boards and in front of the net... His physical ability is made more valuable by his ability to make plays after contact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Scouting Report 1990-91
Skating is the strongest of Wesley's considerable finesse skills... the patience and confidence he demonstrates while handling the puck is remarkable for a player with a lack of NHL experience... plays an intelligently aggressive game. Not a thumper, but takes out his man very well... He plays smartly in front of his own net (as in playing the stick when the opponent is bigger than he)... he is a character kid who will continue to improve because of his attitude and work ethic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Scouting Report 1991-92
Better than most young defensemen at reading plays and knowing when to step in. Has a good, quick shot from the point... He is mentally tough and doesn't come unglued... a gifted offensive defenseman with the courage to go into the corner and hit... a good open ice checker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, May 16, 1992
He is an excellent passer and shooter, who moves the puck up ice with considerable speed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Scouting Report 1992-93
Smart and poised at both ends of the ice... cannot be beaten one on one because of his skating and smarts... Has adequate size and strength which make him an effective checker... He makes himself do it because he knows it is the price to pay for playing his position in the NHL... has improved season after season... just below the league's elite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Scouting Report 1993-94
Should get credit for his solid play... You could count on two hands the number of times Wesley has been beaten one on one throughout his career... makes the defensive plays with confidence... You don't have to shatter glass to be a solid checker, which he is. He's not mean, but he will make a takeout check and not let his man get back into the play... A very solid, reliable, talented defenseman... If the Bruins don't want him, there are 25 other teams who would say "call us first".
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1994-95 Hockey Almanac
Quite effective moving the puck out of his own zone... adept at out-positioning onrushing forwards...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro Hockey Play-By-Play 1994-95
Glen continues to provide steady defense with some well-timed offense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Scouting Report 1994-95
continues to improve... Very sly about running interference for his defense partner, allowing him time to move the puck and the confidence to know that he won't get hammered by a forechecker
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1995-96 Hockey Almanac
An excellent skater and calm puckhandler... knows how to step up and join the attack... a smart positional player who relies more on speed than brawn... He's a gamer who always wants to get better and works hard to keep fulfilling his assignment and remain a vital member of the team.

EXPECT - Excellent two-way play
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Scouting Report 1995-96
Played much of last season with the inexperienced Chris Pronger... can veer into the play deep; he seldom gets trapped there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1995-96 Hockey Almanac
Just because he's strong with the puck doesn't mean he is weak on the blueline... He is no saviour, but a solid pro who could transform the Whalers from pretenders to contenders... a determined player... always bounces back from injury.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Scouting Report 1996-97
Solid, but not elite class...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1996-97 Hockey Almanac
From a skill point of view, there's nothing wrong with Wesley's game. He skates well, moves the puck around the rink smartly, and reads the play skillfully... He will even play a somewhat abrasive, if not overly physical, style, getting under the skin of opposition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRAL, December 22, 1998
The Carolina Hurricanes are hobbling on defense as the injury bug has taken its toll. The Canes are still managing, and the man holding them together is veteran Glen Wesley.

When Wesley makes a hit the crowd notices, and the way he has been playing hockey has makes his teammates take notice. "Glen has really stepped up," says Gary Roberts, Hurricanes left wing. "I mean he's played well all season, but it may be more noticeable now that ****** and ***** are out of the lineup. He really has played solid and has thrown some good hits out there."

"He's playing as solid hockey as I have seen him," says Keith Primeau, Hurricanes center. "He's leading by example for our young defensemen."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Scouting Report 2000
He is quite durable... an ankle injury ended a 185 consecutive games streak... a more relaxed player in Carolina... helping to break in some younger defensemen... happy not having to be the star.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Times, April 5, 2002
''The upside with Glen is he's such a great athlete that once he gets the green light to go back and play you expect him to come back and play exactly like he did before the injury,'' Coach Paul Maurice said yesterday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Scouting Report 2002-03
Wesley is reliable and does his job with a minimum of fuss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by USA Today, March 7, 2003
Glen Wesley will waive his no-trade clause if the right deal comes along, and most of the contenders want him. He doesn't provide much offense, but he's solid defensively
Quote:
Originally Posted by USA Today, March 11, 2003
Wesley is a stay-at-home defenseman who does nothing spectacularly but is solid all-around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by London Free Press, July 7, 2003
Wesley was the Leafs' best defenceman in the playoffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodi News-Sentinel, May 23, 2006
Glen Wesley made a key defensive play early in the final period and the Hurricanes beat the Buffalo Sabres 4-2 to even the Eastern Conference finals... *** ***** sent a slapshot toward the net. It bounced off ****'s pads and was trickling toward the net when Wesley dived over the goalie to swipe it out of harm's way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leader-Post, June 7, 2006
Carolina Hurricanes defenceman Glen Wesley is blocking every shot he can get in front of. No active NHL player has been in more games than Wesley without winning the Stanley Cup, so it's easy to understand why he's willing to be bruised and battered to win it all this time.

Wesley limped off the ice in the first period Monday but was courageously back in the rotation minutes later.

"That's Glenny to a T right there," said captain Rod Brind'Amour. "That's what he brings to our team.

"He's not going to score too many goals but he's going to prevent a whole bunch and he's going to do whatever he has to to win. Obviously, at this time of year (blocking shots) gets magnified and you notice it, but that's how he's played his whole career and how he's played all year for us."
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hockey News, June 1, 2007
"Glen had an outstanding season last year, and continues to be a steadying force on our blue-line," Hurricanes president and GM Jim Rutherford said in a release Friday. "His leadership is important to the fabric of our dressing room and we are glad he is returning to play another season."
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hockey News, June 5, 2008
he emerged as a steadying force in the dressing room during Carolina's 2006 Cup run... "Glen was, for the most part, put in a position to play against the other team's best players," GM Jim Rutherford said. "His contribution, game in and game out, to me, was just as valuable as the guys that were scoring the winning goals. ... He was one of the big difference-makers to get us (the Cup)."
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hockey News, July 9, 2008
Wesley will go down in history for his stalwart defensive play, but he had some solid offensive upside early in his career. Wesley averaged 44 points per season in his first seven years in the NHL with Boston, before moving into a stay-at-home role with the Hartford/Carolina organization.
Ice Time

Wesley was a # 2/3 defenseman in his early 30s for Carolina, but after that, was a workhorse almost right until the end. His ice-time numbers slowly dwindled, as expected, but very few players his age were getting those minutes over half the season or more:

season age # players >= Wesley in age # players outplayed by
2003 34 80 11
2004 35 52 4
2006 37 24 12
2007 38 10 5
2008 39 7 3

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04-15-2010, 02:28 AM
  #125
TheDevilMadeMe
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At first I thought more time would be better, but with assassinations dying down, I'm glad voting day is coming up soon.

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