The Business of HockeyDiscuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Franchise sales, valuations, TV contracts, ratings, expansion, relocation, the CBA and work stoppage discussion goes here.
An old friend posed the question recently and while I snapped off a hip-shot answer, rejecting that notion as somewhat preposterous, it actually bears some serious reflection.
The Dallas Stars will play their second-to-last match of an inglorious season with their final appearance on home ice Thursday night. There will be no playoffs for the Stars and in the NHL, when you're not in the playoffs, you're like a ghost in the attic. People may remember you fondly on occasion, but you're not exactly a main topic of conversation anymore.
This isn't really in the right category because it's not a "business" issue per se, but if you read through it, you see that he answers his own question at the end. It's not that they're irrelevant, but that they're at a crossroads where they could slip in that direction if not careful (though being in a metro area of 6 million means even an irrelevant will draw enough people/money to be among the more valuable in the league).
It's a question you could have asked about the New York Rangers at the beginning of this decade or the Hawks or Bruins as recently as a few years ago - do a couple years of mediocrity, the presumptive loss of the face of a franchise and an owner who's lost public support hurt a team's standing in the marketplace of public opinion? Absolutely.
With Modano likely gone this year and the team likely sold this summer, it's a good time for the whole organization to take a good, long look at itself from top to bottom and figure out how to recapture the buzz they had in 1999, where they were second on the relevancy scale among the area sports teams (and first in Dallas is all but unobtainable). Winning is an obvious part of the answer, and probably the biggest thing in town that is all about what have you done for me lately.
I think they're still relevant. They've been the most successful southern market team, attendance wise. As long as they can keep that up, the Stars should stay.
According to ESPN's attendance numbers they still averaged over 17,000 a game and played to 93% capacity this year. For a team in a non-traditional hockey market that has now missed the playoffs for the 2nd year in a row, I'd say they are still relevant.
I'm very anti-southern hockey but it looks like this city supports the Stars so ... I would think they are relevant. However they are losing money and are up for sale.
According to ESPN's attendance numbers they still averaged over 17,000 a game and played to 93% capacity this year. For a team in a non-traditional hockey market that has now missed the playoffs for the 2nd year in a row, I'd say they are still relevant.
they are not getting 17K a night...they also have a ton of give away.
and there tv rating are among the lowest in the NHL and have been beaten by the worst ran pro sport franchise in the states...Dallas FC.
the Dallas stars need to figure it out....they may have 5K hardcore fans...that is no joke.
I don't think people realize how small some of the southern market fan bases are.
it's one thing to be a Pittsburgh Pirates, be terrible...and get bad crowds...but still get 20-40K HH on tv every game.
It's another to have to give away thousands of tickets per game...give corporate discounts on season tickets to push them out...not only do that...but say 17k are there but really maybe 14K showed up and maybe 5k of them paid for seats(most are are corporate giveaways) then get a .5 rating on tv with 3-6K HH.
Dallas got a .72 rating this year half way through the season:
.52 rating in 08/09
and a .36 in 07.08
number of HH
09/10: 15K
08/09: 11K
07/08: 7K
so Dallas is going up 4K per year...maybe those ADs paid off.
regardless...you have 6 million people and get 15K homes to watch on tv...that is terrible....however way better then 7K.
when they played Detroit for the conference final they had the lowest rated games ever in the WCF....ever..and it not close.
wht is really sad is they have had amazing success on ice.
they are not getting 17K a night...they also have a ton of give away.
and there tv rating are among the lowest in the NHL and have been beaten by the worst ran pro sport franchise in the states...Dallas FC.
the Dallas stars need to figure it out....they may have 5K hardcore fans...that is no joke.
I don't think people realize how small some of the southern market fan bases are.
it's one thing to be a Pittsburgh Pirates, be terrible...and get bad crowds...but still get 20-40K HH on tv every game.
It's another to have to give away thousands of tickets per game...give corporate discounts on season tickets to push them out...not only do that...but say 17k are there but really maybe 14K showed up and maybe 5k of them paid for seats(most are are corporate giveaways) then get a .5 rating on tv with 3-6K HH.
Dallas got a .72 rating this year half way through the season:
.52 rating in 08/09
and a .36 in 07.08
number of HH
09/10: 15K
08/09: 11K
07/08: 7K
so Dallas is going up 4K per year...maybe those ADs paid off.
regardless...you have 6 million people and get 15K homes to watch on tv...that is terrible....however way better then 7K.
when they played Detroit for the conference final they had the lowest rated games ever in the WCF....ever..and it not close.
wht is really sad is they have had amazing success on ice.
when they played Detroit for the conference final they had the lowest rated games ever in the WCF....ever..and it not close.
For whatever reason, Dallas has a much lower cable TV penetration rate than any other major market. So between that and those games being totally lost on Versus when no one had that freaking channel, the ratings stunk because no one could watch the ****ing games.
ehh, Dallas may be struggling a bit now but they were one of the strongest franchises in the league 10 years ago, and they can get there again if they become succesfull again.
I remember Tom Hicks announced during the 07-08 playoffs 1st round against Anaheim that the team had just broken even, and then they turned a profit in the subsequent rounds. last year the team definetly lost money, and this year they probably will too, but the fact is there's no reason to suspect that the team will lose money even if it is succesfull because they've never done so before. Every year the team has made the playoffs, they've made money. Dallas has the potential to be the strongest franchise in the south and will be in the league for a good long time
Yesterday on the FAN590 Doug MacLean mentioned that here was a team (other than Phoenix) up for sale, and it's going to lose $20m this year.
I immedaitely thoguth it was Dallas, unless there's another team up for sale. Is there?
Tom Hicks claimed earlier this year that he would lose money, but he put the figure at around 5 million despite the internal cap.- how would MacLean even know what Dallas is losing? He has nothing to do with the team and I doubt they would broadcast such a loss.
I don't trust a word out of Doug MacLean's mouth anyway ever since he jumped on the Jim Balsillie bandwagon at the prospect of being the general manager of a theroretical Hamilton NHL franchise after years of denouncing his efforts to steal a team. It was hilarious listening him respond to the criticism over that, because he turned immediatly to childish name calling and insults. The guy will say anything and has no class.
all that besides, if I had to guess I would say he was talking about Atlanta anyway.
Yes, Dallas is for sale, but I doubt they are in any danger of relocation. Besides, it would be very likely that ownership will consist of local people (heard rumors of Brett Hull, Mark Cuban has expressed interest as a minority investor). I don't know if Hull would be any good as an owner (somehow I doubt that), but Cuban might be good, even if it's only a small share of the Stars.
It's another to have to give away thousands of tickets per game...give corporate discounts on season tickets to push them out...not only do that...but say 17k are there but really maybe 14K showed up and maybe 5k of them paid for seats(most are are corporate giveaways) then get a .5 rating on tv with 3-6K HH.
Cite your sources, please. According to the numbers released a couple years ago, Dallas gave away about 2,000 tickets per game, which was high for the league but sounds about right from my understanding of their ticket sales.
they are not getting 17K a night...they also have a ton of give away.
and there tv rating are among the lowest in the NHL and have been beaten by the worst ran pro sport franchise in the states...Dallas FC.
the Dallas stars need to figure it out....they may have 5K hardcore fans...that is no joke.
I don't think people realize how small some of the southern market fan bases are.
it's one thing to be a Pittsburgh Pirates, be terrible...and get bad crowds...but still get 20-40K HH on tv every game.
It's another to have to give away thousands of tickets per game...give corporate discounts on season tickets to push them out...not only do that...but say 17k are there but really maybe 14K showed up and maybe 5k of them paid for seats(most are are corporate giveaways) then get a .5 rating on tv with 3-6K HH.
Dallas got a .72 rating this year half way through the season:
.52 rating in 08/09
and a .36 in 07.08
number of HH
09/10: 15K
08/09: 11K
07/08: 7K
so Dallas is going up 4K per year...maybe those ADs paid off.
regardless...you have 6 million people and get 15K homes to watch on tv...that is terrible....however way better then 7K.
when they played Detroit for the conference final they had the lowest rated games ever in the WCF....ever..and it not close.
wht is really sad is they have had amazing success on ice.
Sorry but you are full of ****. We have maybe 5k hardcore fans? In a city of 6 million? Must be nice to pull numbers out of your ass. A franchise that makes $100 million a year and is valued around $250 million sure must be in dire straits.
yeah if Dallas were actually just giving away all their tickets and losing 20 million a year, they probably would have traded some guys away at the deadline lol
the last coupe of weeks they've given out contract extensions and been active in the college / european free agent markets. Doesn't sound like a team with no money to me.
There as relevant as any bad team in a non culture sport area. Happens in baseball, basketball.
This. I've lived in Dallas since 1995. Around 99-02 they were incredibly popular. I remember being a bit relieved that the Maple Leafs didn't get past the Sabres in the conference finals, because I knew I would've gotten jumped or something by supporting the team against the Stars in the finals.
However, ever since losing to Detroit in 08 (and even during that time), support has been much less than before. A lot of it has to do with the Cowboys being relevant again with (Romo, TO controveries, new stadium) and the Mavs being respectable as well. There has also been a large influx of the Asian, African-American, and Indian demographics into the area, all of which are mostly basketball fans (out of the four major sports).
So the Stars are not dead, but just a bit under the radar at the moment, and they probably will continue to be so, especially now that the household names of Turco/Modano/Lehthinen are leaving town. However, once the Mavs cool down and Cowboys go back to an average season, the Stars fanbase will return in large numbers just as it did in Chicago, Boston, and other areas.
There send off of Mike Modano tonight has been pretty emotional though. What storybook game for Mo.
He's also the longest tenured athlete of any of the big four sports teams in the history of Pro Sports in Dallas. He first started his NHL career in 1989 and will end it 21 years later in 2010.
Not even the greatest players in the history of the Dallas Cowboys have played that long.
Sorry but you are full of ****. We have maybe 5k hardcore fans? In a city of 6 million? Must be nice to pull numbers out of your ass. A franchise that makes $100 million a year and is valued around $250 million sure must be in dire straits.
how many hardcore fans do you think the Stars have?
they are in a major US market and can't get a 1.0 tv rating.
and they recently averaged a .32 rating for the season with a WCF team.....how can that be and Dallas have a big fan base? I am not trying to bash Dallas...I am embarrassed at my own blues fan base..I think the 25K-30K HH the blues get is bad.
Dallas has won cups, has had the likes of Madano and Hull play there..MM is possibly the best American born player ever, Hull maybe the best pure goal scorer ever left a small impact on the team...I get having lean years but you guys were in the WCF two years ago.
I am just going by the factual data...that tells me that two years ago the Stars got beat by FC Dallas soccer in tv ratings..a team in Dire Straights.
Despite initial reservations about the move to Texas, the Stars have enjoyed success both on and off the ice. On top of their 1999 Cup, they have won two Presidents' Trophies as the team with the best overall regular-season record. Dallas has also won seven division titles and two Western Conference titles in the past ten seasons. In the last ten years the Dallas Stars, Detroit Red Wings, and New Jersey Devils have had the most points.
How can a team do that...then pull 7k HH for a season they went to the WCF.
How many hardcore fans can you have if you can't get more then 10-15K people in a city of 6 million to watch your games on tv...
I am a NHL fan..I want the NHL to succeed.
What happens if Dallas gets 75 pts next year...will be drop to a .15 or .2 rating...
