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ESPN: Are the Dallas Stars Still Relevant?

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Old
04-09-2010, 12:14 AM
  #26
Dirty Kari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frivolousz21 View Post

How many hardcore fans can you have if you can't get more then 10-15K people in a city of 6 million to watch your games on tv...
More than 5000

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04-09-2010, 12:23 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by frivolousz21 View Post
What happens if Dallas gets 75 pts next year...will be drop to a .15 or .2 rating...
I've found these numbers you are referencing. the link is here for all to see:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=24982544

you indicated in your previous post that Dallas was trending upwards over the last 3 seasons, one of which was a WCF season. Why would it drop from .72 to .15 when from last season to this season the team was generally not predicted to do anything, they had one of the lowest team payrolls in the league, and the TV viewership apparently went up by nearly 40%? Also i notice that the Stars still have higher television ratings than any other southern market with one exception, including both LA teams, and almost as high a level as the New York Rangers. It appears that every NHL team in the south is struggling by your standards as well as a good chunk of the teams in the north, so I have a hard time believing that these numbers reflect that poorly on Dallas as a market when it seems to be a league concern.

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04-09-2010, 12:41 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
Again, please show your work for the actual attendance/ticket giveaway claim in your original post.
I can't..I don't have proof..I said corporate give aways...

which I assumed were the case because the lower bowl always looks empty at the start of a stars game on tv.

I would assume the lower bowl is mostly corporate seats?


if not then I am sorry for assuming...if the lower bowl is full of season ticket holders and family's I think that is great and Dallas can build off that.

Alistar- a .72 rating in NY is 60K HH....difference in population...and NY supports three teams. The .72 was also midway through the season..it is likely much lower by now...so we will have to see the year end result to make a year to year comparison

i am not going to get into this debate because its personal....I am sorry you guys feel attacked...and think I am trying to lie about Dallas....my best friend moved to Dallas in 2002...and we have talked about this many times...he is a black man..who is a huge basketball,, football, and baseball fan..who was a casual nhl fan back here in stl...

he has asked me what happened to hockey....because in Dallas the stars hardly exist in the sports world.

that's where I got the basis from..then I saw some stuff about FC Dallas beating them on tv....and I remember ghost of maroons road linking an article to a female writer in Dallas writing about the fan interest plummeting and if the Stars don't make a deep playoff run it's non-existant.

If the Stars a budding success and these opinions and numbers are way off..I would like to see that..if there is 50K+ fans who love the team...I want to know about it...i love talking business of hockey.

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04-09-2010, 01:09 AM
  #29
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Define "corporate giveaways." According to some numbers that were posted on the business board a couple years back, Dallas gave away about 2,000 tickets per game. Corporations who buy season tickets in the lower bowl have bought them and are free to do with them what they please (distribute them to employees or clients), but those are tickets sold and paid for, not given out for free as you seem to be claiming.

I would estimate that the turnstile attendance in Dallas was about 15,000-16,000 this season just from eyeballing it with some games below and some above. That's no different than, say, St. Louis, which also has plenty of no shows for most games (and I've been there a couple times now that I live in Missouri and watch them regularly).

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04-09-2010, 01:15 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frivolousz21 View Post
I can't..I don't have proof..I said corporate give aways...

which I assumed were the case because the lower bowl always looks empty at the start of a stars game on tv.

I would assume the lower bowl is mostly corporate seats?


if not then I am sorry for assuming...if the lower bowl is full of season ticket holders and family's I think that is great and Dallas can build off that.

Alistar- a .72 rating in NY is 60K HH....difference in population...and NY supports three teams. The .72 was also midway through the season..it is likely much lower by now...so we will have to see the year end result to make a year to year comparison

i am not going to get into this debate because its personal....I am sorry you guys feel attacked...and think I am trying to lie about Dallas....my best friend moved to Dallas in 2002...and we have talked about this many times...he is a black man..who is a huge basketball,, football, and baseball fan..who was a casual nhl fan back here in stl...

he has asked me what happened to hockey....because in Dallas the stars hardly exist in the sports world.

that's where I got the basis from..then I saw some stuff about FC Dallas beating them on tv....and I remember ghost of maroons road linking an article to a female writer in Dallas writing about the fan interest plummeting and if the Stars don't make a deep playoff run it's non-existant.

If the Stars a budding success and these opinions and numbers are way off..I would like to see that..if there is 50K+ fans who love the team...I want to know about it...i love talking business of hockey.
You have been very civil

First of all your logic doesn't make sense because its just not supported by the numbers or common sense. If we are averaging 17,000 a game (lets say we give away 2k a season and make that 15,000) and we have an average of 18,000 homes (no way to count individual people) watching that by itself is at least 33k people (if you don't count those dirty freeloaders as people or fans). Using these numbers to extrapolate a raw number of fans only works if you assume its the same people going to these games..every game and watching these games on tv..every game. Not to mention the overlap between those two averages. As for your hardcore estimate, I am a super hardcore fan. However, I have been to 2 games this season and I haven't had the chance to watch every game. I guess I wouldn't be part of your estimated 5k then. Also because of our presence in the Pacific many games don't start until 8:30-9:30 pm in Dallas so that has to hurt ratings. When a regular season game lasts till midnight its not good for people with families.

As for the empty bowl in the beginning of the game, Dallas fans are notorious for showing up late. Its just how it is. It will usually fill up near the middle of the first period.

As for the female sports writer (has to be Jennifer Engel), she has a reputation for being very negative and a bit of a "sky is falling" type. She rarely writes about the Stars as well. As for her article Dallas is a big bandwagon team. Anyone but the Cowboys is subject to massive swings in fanbase affection. And no offense to GHOST but he is one of the many posters on this site that has a clear anti-southern pro-Canadian market agenda.

Oh and why our are our ratings "likely much lower by now"? The problem we have with your posts is you assume a LOT.


Last edited by Dirty Kari: 04-09-2010 at 01:30 AM.
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04-09-2010, 01:26 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frivolousz21 View Post
I can't..I don't have proof..I said corporate give aways...

which I assumed were the case because the lower bowl always looks empty at the start of a stars game on tv.

I would assume the lower bowl is mostly corporate seats?


if not then I am sorry for assuming...if the lower bowl is full of season ticket holders and family's I think that is great and Dallas can build off that.

Alistar- a .72 rating in NY is 60K HH....difference in population...and NY supports three teams. The .72 was also midway through the season..it is likely much lower by now...so we will have to see the year end result to make a year to year comparison.
the ratings correspond with Market share, so would it be fair to say that Dallas has a higher share of their market watching their games than half the teams on the list in the link I posted previously?

All I can say is that from examining the numbers it appears that Dallas had a large increase in ratings from last year to this season, and that in terms of market share or absolute number of viewers the Stars do not appear to be among the lowest teams in the NHL - certaintly they are not out of line to the point where you could suggest there is a problem with the marketplace. Dallas has been financially viable for the vast majority of it's time in Texas, and only the recent hard economic times and the team's struggles have lead to some lean years where the Owner has admitted to losing some money (although I'd suggest again that the actual loses are closer to a couple million dollars than the previously speculated 20 million). There's no reason to say that Dallas can't be succesfull when the team turns it's play around, all the historical evidence indicates that the team is one of the most profitable in the league when it is winning.

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04-09-2010, 04:15 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
They aren't moving. There isn't another market in the US or Canada where they'd do better.
I agree that they aren't moving, but I disagree with the second part.

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04-09-2010, 06:38 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frivolousz21 View Post
Alistar- a .72 rating in NY is 60K HH....difference in population...and NY supports three teams. The .72 was also midway through the season..it is likely much lower by now...so we will have to see the year end result to make a year to year comparison
You're missing something here with your figures. Something big. No one in this thread is disputing the 'Boys are #1 in Dallas by a long way, right? When the Cowboys play a Monday or Sunday night game (which they did quite a few times this season), and there's a Stars game on TV at the same time, which one do you think the fans will choose?

Also, as Troy so deftly pointed out, Dallas has a very low Cable TV penetration for a city of that size. Also, a fair few Stars games were on Versus, which was unavailable on one of the major providers of Television services (DirecTV) for much of the season. I think if anything ratings will have gone up because of those factors.

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04-09-2010, 08:43 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Dirty Kari View Post
Sorry but you are full of ****. We have maybe 5k hardcore fans? In a city of 6 million? Must be nice to pull numbers out of your ass. A franchise that makes $100 million a year and is valued around $250 million sure must be in dire straits.
Even if you had 5k fans. Its still enough because Dallas can just survive on coporate support like New York, Philly, and Toronto.

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04-09-2010, 01:57 PM
  #35
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It is also worth noting that during their prime in the late 90's early 2000's they had much better television ratings. I'm sure somebody around here will look it up.

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04-09-2010, 02:43 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by NYR Hockey Fan View Post
I'm very anti-southern hockey but it looks like this city supports the Stars so ... I would think they are relevant. However they are losing money and are up for sale.
I'm very anti-northern hockey but during the last few seasons in Dallas they've had a LOT more empty seats down low than in previous seasons. That's how it looks on tv anyway, if it's different, some Dallas fan can correct me.

I think like in several cities, fans come out when the team is winning.

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04-09-2010, 03:13 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
I'm very anti-northern hockey but during the last few seasons in Dallas they've had a LOT more empty seats down low than in previous seasons. That's how it looks on tv anyway, if it's different, some Dallas fan can correct me.

I think like in several cities, fans come out when the team is winning.
I live out of town and don't get to games very often but I have to say when I went over Christmas I was shocked at how many empty seats there were, and not really the lower bowl (although yes there were empty seats down low) but there were entire sections up top that were empty. My understanding of the lower bowl seats is that they are owned but when the team isn't doing well the season ticket holders (whether they be individuals or corporate) decide to spend their time doing something else. It leads to inflated numbers of actual attendance because those season ticket holders are counted as attending because they have a paid ticket even though the number of people actually at the game may be significantly lower.

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04-09-2010, 03:18 PM
  #38
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Everyone has fair weather fans.

@jsginsocal: Biggest issue has been the imported Canadian fanbase brought down by major corporations... and in general the downturn in the economy. It's not that the Stars are doing poorly, it's that most major corporations can no longer offer tickets to employees/sales incentives/etc. You know how I got into Stars' hockey in the first place? Nortel. Gave my dad tickets and were the reason I even live in Dallas. Guess what? They're toast. Same reason there's a hockey team in Carolina.

They've also had a very down past two years on-ice. Bringing in rookies has, unfortunately, hurt the franchise. In the past we've brought in numerous veterans to fill gaps. We can't throw money at the problem anymore. Many of these veterans were big names. Like Hull, Verbeek, Nieuwendyk, Zubov, Carbonneau, Broten, Turgeon, Guerin, Arnott, Belfour. Want to revitalize the success of the 90s/early 2000s? Get more established big names. Richards is great, but is he really big enough to replace Modano? In general, the fastest way to regenerate a fanbase is to get incredibly hyped up players who actually turn out to do well. The early 2000 major pickups I think led to many fans being angry at the franchise. Which is why Doug Armstrong is gone.

@Butch 19: How are you anti-Northern hockey? Hockey defines the northern regions. If anything, just be pro-Southern hockey. Or just pro-hockey.

And I will not deny the fact there are tons of empty seats at games. Too busy to watch a lackluster team.

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04-09-2010, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
I'm very anti-northern hockey but during the last few seasons in Dallas they've had a LOT more empty seats down low than in previous seasons. That's how it looks on tv anyway, if it's different, some Dallas fan can correct me.

I think like in several cities, fans come out when the team is winning.
what do you like roller hockey or something?

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04-09-2010, 03:40 PM
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OT: There are 7 million people in Dallas (CSA 6,805,275 in 2009)

Why not a second NFL team?

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04-09-2010, 04:04 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
Yesterday on the FAN590 Doug MacLean....
This would be where I stopped taking the information seriously. Not that I don't doubt that he said it, or that you heard it... but anything that comes out of his mouth is instantly suspect. The Balsillie situation just demonstrated unambiguously to everyone else what we here in Columbus had known for quite some time.

He's a heck of a salesman - you have to give him that - but he's still ultimately selling snake oil.

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04-09-2010, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lindrosfan88 View Post
OT: There are 7 million people in Dallas (CSA 6,805,275 in 2009)

Why not a second NFL team?
Cowboys territoral rights.

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04-09-2010, 04:23 PM
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The irony of a Blues fan calling out Dallas fans when a few years ago it was impossible to fill their own barn.

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04-09-2010, 04:30 PM
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Yeah I forgot to mention Nortel going down was another reason for less attendance. They were huge with hockey tickets, and every time someone from Brampton would come down, they would go to a game. I assume the same is true in Raleigh.

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04-09-2010, 05:44 PM
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The irony of a Blues fan calling out Dallas fans when a few years ago it was impossible to fill their own barn.


Who is calling out who?

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04-09-2010, 10:46 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
Cowboys territoral rights.
I thought the NFL v. Davis solved all that?

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04-10-2010, 09:47 PM
  #47
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Yeah I forgot to mention Nortel going down was another reason for less attendance. They were huge with hockey tickets, and every time someone from Brampton would come down, they would go to a game. I assume the same is true in Raleigh.
Ehhh as someone who worked at Nortel in Raleigh, I'm not sure I really saw the company as a significant factor in interest in the Hurricanes. Maybe I just came in too close to the end of the company, though. Hell I don't think any of my co-workers ever stopped working (or pretending to work in hopes that they wouldn't get laid off) long enough to go to a game LOL.

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04-10-2010, 09:56 PM
  #48
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Ehhh as someone who worked at Nortel in Raleigh, I'm not sure I really saw the company as a significant factor in interest in the Hurricanes. Maybe I just came in too close to the end of the company, though. Hell I don't think any of my co-workers ever stopped working (or pretending to work in hopes that they wouldn't get laid off) long enough to go to a game LOL.
Trust me Dale, the presence was most definitely there from the Nortel folks. Most of the nurse practitioners I work with are Canadian, and they moved here when Nortel was still a major presence in the area. Most of their families worked for, you guessed it, Nortel. While it was still a major presence in the area the Leafs easily had the largest presence of any outside fanbase here, now I'm not sure I'd put them in the top 3. I do think there was a bit of a dip in attendance after Nortel crashed here, but it's gone back up from their losses since then.

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04-10-2010, 09:59 PM
  #49
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Yeah, but I think they were speaking more to the point of the company itself being a large purchaser of tickets; I don't think there has been any noticeable effect on ticket sales in Raleigh due to Nortel going down.

I did see the amount of money they owed the Dallas Cowboys for food and drink service in a suite, and WOW, it was one of those things that just disgusts you.

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04-10-2010, 10:03 PM
  #50
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Yeah, but I think they were speaking more to the point of the company itself being a large purchaser of tickets; I don't think there has been any noticeable effect on ticket sales in Raleigh due to Nortel going down.

I did see the amount of money they owed the Dallas Cowboys for food and drink service in a suite, and WOW, it was one of those things that just disgusts you.
Yeah I know what you mean. I do believe they had a few of the boxes in the RBC Center and that's an area where the Canes struggled to find new takers for a while. Corporate support has always been the biggest issue here, but the loss of the Nortel boxes is something they've been able to make up a good bit in the past 4 years or so.

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