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Should Canada establish an Ann Arbor (usntdp) type of program?

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04-09-2010, 05:07 PM
  #1
Ilyeu
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Should Canada establish an Ann Arbor (usntdp) type of program?

I was thinking about the u18 today and Canada's selection for this tournament. I thought, yeah, they should. What do you think? It's given the American's more options, why not borrow it since it's worked for them and the Russians (red army). Why not have a group of guys who train and focus as a team year in and out.

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04-09-2010, 06:02 PM
  #2
Dr Awesome
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With major junior and junior A is it really worth it?

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04-09-2010, 08:36 PM
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i dont think it would work as well in canada because canadian kids grow up dreaming of playing major jr ...also major jr teams pay the high end players a good chunk of cash...so it would be very dificult to lure the toop kids to this program and away from major jr

also in alote of ways i think that the canadian major jr model is far superior to the us jr model with the ntdp included in that ....with the ntdp it is a great developmant program but i dont like how they lack the true competition of a real season in a league...they play a split schedule between the ushl,ncaa,international tournies and what not...but the kids dont have that structured season of the standings mattering and playoff pushes and playoff battles its much more individually geared

i think teh canadian jr model is the best in the world....i dont think anything compares to the rigures of the chl....although the ntdp works very well in teh usa becasue they dont have anything that compares to teh chl....the ushl doesnt add up ....so for american kids teh usntdp is teh best option....but canadians are better off....thats why teh ntdp loses alote of top end kids to the chl

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04-16-2010, 12:45 PM
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therealdeal
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No way, its way too limiting for Canada, too many players. The Major Junior setup is far superior for the number of kids we have.

There should be no debate right now about changing our development system, the talent Canada produces right now is off the charts.

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04-16-2010, 01:32 PM
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FanHabtic
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Canada has way too much depth for a program like that. The reason the US does it is that their talent pool is much smaller so it gives an opportunity for their elite juniors to play together. The university program is not nearly as strong as major junior hockey in Canada.

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04-16-2010, 01:48 PM
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deanosaur
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Big no, theres no reason too, Canada isn't struggling to produce high end players or anything. There's no reason to start a program like that.

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04-16-2010, 01:52 PM
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could you imagine the controversy if Canada picked NTDP team? It would completely defeat the purpose of having a large pool of players to pick from. All the players who got left off the team would be pissed.

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04-16-2010, 01:57 PM
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Brodie
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Canada had a standing national team comprised of prospects in the past... it produced Ed Belfour and Kris Draper to name a few. It was called the "Programme of Excellence".

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04-16-2010, 02:51 PM
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Ilyeu
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What can Canada do then, and have better results at this tournament instead of inventing excuses like losing to the Usntdp program 5-0.
It's embarrassing that we don't compete in this tournament like we should be, the excuse of allowing these players to gain experience is shallow when we should be in this tournament (u18) to win it.

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04-16-2010, 04:31 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilyeu View Post
What can Canada do then, and have better results at this tournament instead of inventing excuses like losing to the Usntdp program 5-0.
It's embarrassing that we don't compete in this tournament like we should be, the excuse of allowing these players to gain experience is shallow when we should be in this tournament (u18) to win it.
If the system as it is now was not doing well then maybe changes would be looked at.But if you have one or 2 areas that are some what wek spots then no you don't change the whole system.The states and russia had to do something because most thre system was not working thats not the case with canada.The other issue in canada is there is alot of players and kids grow up dreaming of playing major jr.You get rid of major j you limiting your self and may in fact make your program worse.

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04-16-2010, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
Canada has way too much depth for a program like that. The reason the US does it is that their talent pool is much smaller so it gives an opportunity for their elite juniors to play together. The university program is not nearly as strong as major junior hockey in Canada.
I wouldn't say that's true. The U.S. has an excellent talent pool, and it can be argued that the very best junior-aged talent here actually plays junior hockey elsewhere than the USNTDP. Top-flight NCAA hockey is also every bit as good as the CHL equivilent.

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04-16-2010, 05:06 PM
  #12
Ilyeu
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
I wouldn't say that's true. The U.S. has an excellent talent pool, and it can be argued that the very best junior-aged talent here actually plays junior hockey elsewhere than the USNTDP. Top-flight NCAA hockey is also every bit as good as the CHL equivilent.
I think you and I see eye to eye. People are assuming I want to change the Major Junior program. I'm not saying that to be the case. I'm saying that, maybe, we should have a back up program to go with the Junior Championship or work something out. Like the Americans do with the usntdp and ushl integrations. However, I don't think you can compare NCAA 18-23 year olds to Major Junior 15-19 year olds.

Major Junior is exactly that, a Junior league. NCAA is an adult collegiate league.

Obviously there is something wrong if the Major Juniors players can't even compete against a usntdp in this tournament and only decide to show up on off years like 2003, 2008. The inconsistencies are just too notable at this point.

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04-17-2010, 05:29 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
I wouldn't say that's true. The U.S. has an excellent talent pool, and it can be argued that the very best junior-aged talent here actually plays junior hockey elsewhere than the USNTDP. Top-flight NCAA hockey is also every bit as good as the CHL equivilent.
I don't think anyone is saying the states does not have a good skill pool they do.But canada has more depth in terms of more players and more teams.

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04-17-2010, 05:34 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilyeu View Post
I think you and I see eye to eye. People are assuming I want to change the Major Junior program. I'm not saying that to be the case. I'm saying that, maybe, we should have a back up program to go with the Junior Championship or work something out. Like the Americans do with the usntdp and ushl integrations. However, I don't think you can compare NCAA 18-23 year olds to Major Junior 15-19 year olds.

Major Junior is exactly that, a Junior league. NCAA is an adult collegiate league.

Obviously there is something wrong if the Major Juniors players can't even compete against a usntdp in this tournament and only decide to show up on off years like 2003, 2008. The inconsistencies are just too notable at this point.
Major jr is 15-21 as i said becore if there was probleams all around with the system then yes you take steps to fix it.With only one or 2 arenas no you don't redo the whole system just to fix a couple areas it really does not mean there is something wrong with the canadian system if they can't compete in this tournemant.No country is going to be great at all levels every year a couple years from now the 18 teams should be good as there are some good young kids comming up.

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04-25-2010, 04:32 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Canada had a standing national team comprised of prospects in the past... it produced Ed Belfour and Kris Draper to name a few. It was called the "Programme of Excellence".
That was just the touring full-time national team. The "Program of Excellence" is actually the entire Canada hockey feeder system that sees junior clubs lend their players to team Canada for tournament purposes instead of just sending a club team with a couple of added all-stars like they used to do in the early 80's.

I like the Program of Excellence. It works. And the people who run it actually know what they are doing. If they make a mistake one year, they learn from it and implement change the following year (eg. The kids couldn't handle the European food, so they start flying in Canadian chefs for the WJC!).

The NTDP system has it's advantages (And the Canadian Women's team actually adopted it successfully for the Olympics), but I wouldn't trade it for the Canadian junior system in a million years.

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05-05-2010, 01:05 PM
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One of the issues I've heard mentioned in the past is that it can lead to tensions over ice time. Canadian CHL players who make the national team are generally the go to guys on their regular teams and play in all key situations rather than constantly competing with other top level players for minutes.

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05-05-2010, 08:34 PM
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I don't think there's a need. The CHL provides them with more than enough.

Hockey Canada is also smart enough not to hold grudges against kids going the NCAA route and pick the best players available. Something USA Hockey is finally growing out of.

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05-05-2010, 10:45 PM
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I wouldn't bother with a Canadian development team. Really, the only thing it would be good for are winning tournaments at the younger age level with the players playing together most of the year. I prefer the come as you are and try our for the team approach. It may or may not be the best way to win a tournament at the junior level against a team that plays together all year, but i am ok with that. The US world junior team had tryouts this year as well,,,,and they won.

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05-06-2010, 07:14 AM
  #19
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One of the reasons that the program benefits the U.S. and its player development is because you might get a couple of good players from California, one from Texas, one or two from Maryland, Arizona or North Dakota or elsewhere not known as hockey hotbeds, and if they stay in those locales they will not develop as well because of the lack of peer competition. But at the USNTDP they can compete and develop at the highest level. Canada, on the other hand, doesn't really have any 'competition isolation' problem tp speak of.

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05-06-2010, 08:00 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilyeu View Post
What can Canada do then, and have better results at this tournament instead of inventing excuses like losing to the Usntdp program 5-0.
It's embarrassing that we don't compete in this tournament like we should be, the excuse of allowing these players to gain experience is shallow when we should be in this tournament (u18) to win it.
Canada should use this tournament as a basis for experience for the players who do play in it. The fact is that a number of top end players aren't available for this tournament every year, because their CHL teams are still in playoffs.

This year in the OHL, players from Barrie, Brampton, Ottawa, Mississauga, Kitchener, London, Windsor and Plymouth were not available. If you add Seguin, Skinner, Smith-Pelly, Toffoli to the Canadian team (not to mention eligible players from the WHL and Q), how different is the result?

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05-06-2010, 08:03 AM
  #21
Blind Gardien
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They sort of almost have it already, at least inasmuch as the junior template allows it. But there are a core of players on the national/provincial team circuits for the U-17, say, and the core tends to graduate upwards to the other tournaments. With evaluation camp experiences along the way. I think that's a good fit with the junior schedules.

If the NHL goes out of the Olympics, I'd love to see another version of the travelling national team come back, though. Most of those players weren't elite prospects, more like older, overlooked guys looking for a second chance. But it still gave an option for a few prospects to sneak into the mix once in a while, or get airlifted into tourneys for extra exposure. I liked that.

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05-06-2010, 08:31 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Ilyeu View Post
I think you and I see eye to eye. People are assuming I want to change the Major Junior program. I'm not saying that to be the case. I'm saying that, maybe, we should have a back up program to go with the Junior Championship or work something out. Like the Americans do with the usntdp and ushl integrations. However, I don't think you can compare NCAA 18-23 year olds to Major Junior 15-19 year olds.

Major Junior is exactly that, a Junior league. NCAA is an adult collegiate league.

Obviously there is something wrong if the Major Juniors players can't even compete against a usntdp in this tournament and only decide to show up on off years like 2003, 2008. The inconsistencies are just too notable at this point.
You have to keep in mind alot of players could not go because of the chl play offs.If all the best players went and had the same results then yes there should be some concern but becaue the best team was not there i don't think that is a reason to change the entire hockey canada system.

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05-06-2010, 08:33 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Ilyeu View Post
What can Canada do then, and have better results at this tournament instead of inventing excuses like losing to the Usntdp program 5-0.
It's embarrassing that we don't compete in this tournament like we should be, the excuse of allowing these players to gain experience is shallow when we should be in this tournament (u18) to win it.
Not alot can be done because the time of year its held.

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05-06-2010, 10:17 AM
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So where are the players drawn from? And who would they play against?

If its a Canadian NDTP then it would be mostly 17 year olds with the odd 16 year old making it. So you could have players dress for their CHL team one year as a 16 year old, then go onto the NDT, then back to the CHL afterwards? Just to win a tournament? Would Taylor Hall and Ryan Ellis have gotten better last year if they left Windsor to play for a NDT against other U18 teams rather than play in the CHL playoffs and Memorial Cup? I don't think so.

Or would it just be taking players who want to go the NCAA route instead of the CHL? Would limiting the team to these guys really be better? Sure you'd always have a couple good players at least like Zajac, Cogliano, Turris and Toews but that is an awful lot of talent that would be left off. But if the team plans on playing against the CHL, doesn't that cause NCAA eligibility problems as well (I don't actually know)? Either way this doesn't seem like an improvement on just going with what's available.

-As an aside, because somebody mentioned the Canadian women's team, there were several years when Shannon Szabados was left off the team because it was considered better for her if she continued playing in the AJHL rather than going to the World Championships and other tournaments while she was still eligible to play men's Junior A. And a friend was saying that there's a girl playing on some Midget AAA or AA team in Calgary who was left off a junior national team this year for the same reasons. Interesting look on how Hockey Canada views development across gender lines.

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05-06-2010, 10:25 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xicethug13x View Post
i dont think it would work as well in canada because canadian kids grow up dreaming of playing major jr ...also major jr teams pay the high end players a good chunk of cash...so it would be very dificult to lure the toop kids to this program and away from major jr

also in alote of ways i think that the canadian major jr model is far superior to the us jr model with the ntdp included in that ....with the ntdp it is a great developmant program but i dont like how they lack the true competition of a real season in a league...they play a split schedule between the ushl,ncaa,international tournies and what not...but the kids dont have that structured season of the standings mattering and playoff pushes and playoff battles its much more individually geared

i think teh canadian jr model is the best in the world....i dont think anything compares to the rigures of the chl....although the ntdp works very well in teh usa becasue they dont have anything that compares to teh chl....the ushl doesnt add up ....so for american kids teh usntdp is teh best option....but canadians are better off....thats why teh ntdp loses alote of top end kids to the chl
No player gets over 100$ a week. I'm 17 and I make more than that.

And if the NTDP plays in the USHL, how can they not win the championship every year?

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