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Old
04-10-2010, 01:35 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, he's played 81...and I'm kind of looking at that.

The final point is debatable, he has clearly been one of the guys at the core of this club as far as friendships go. He just needs to adjust his decision making when it comes to risking penalties.
I'm talking about a foxhole guy on the ice.

Big situations, you expect your high-paid players to step up. Carts has stepped up this year, Richie has stepped up, Pronger and Kimmo have stepped up, hell, even Briere has raised his defensive game.

But when has Scott Hartnell stepped up? When has he put this team on his back and made a play. I remember one time this season, the Blackhawks game.

But with this team fighting for their playoff lives the last 10 games, what has Scott Hartnell done? Has he raised his level of play? When Carter went down, did Scott Hartnell step into the breach?

**** no, guy has gone on (yet another) 11 game scoreless streak and has dragged down every line he's been on. Furthermore, he took a penalty that could have been extremely costly against TO and instead of learning a lesson, he took an even worse one against the NYR.

If I were making a list of players most valuable to this team, I'd go like this (no order).

- Richards
- Carter
- Briere
- Kimmo
- Pronger
- Carle
- Gagne
- Giroux
- Betts
- Laperriere
- Carcillo
- Emery
- Leighton
- JVR

That's 14 guys on this roster that in my opinion, have contributed more towards the Flyers 2009-10 season success than Scott Hartnell.

Hartnell is the 7th highest paid player on the team.

That's a pretty big ****ing problem.

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04-10-2010, 01:36 PM
  #102
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Pronger played his worst game of the year in the biggest game of the year.

Giroux and JVR have been empty suits for a while now.

Giroux's March: 16GP, 2-5-7 -10. Prior to bumping up since Carter got hurt, Giroux had 16 pts in 37 games and was -16.

JVR hit the wall HARD after January. 27 GP, 4 pts.

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04-10-2010, 01:39 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Pronger played his worst game of the year in the biggest game of the year.
Pronger has been a stud the entire season and is easily our team's MVP.

Maybe someone else on this team could pick up the slack for him and Kimmo once and a while.

If you're going to defend Scott Hartnell (who's been atrocious in at least 60 of our 81 games) by bashing Pronger (who's been outstanding in about 65 of the 81), then I don't know what to tell you.

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04-10-2010, 01:41 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Pronger has been a stud the entire season and is easily our team's MVP.

Maybe someone else on this team could pick up the slack for him and Kimmo once and a while.

If you're going to defend Scott Hartnell (who's been atrocious in at least 60 of our 81 games) by bashing Pronger (who's been outstanding in about 65 of the 81), then I don't know what to tell you.
No, dude, I'm just problematizing your black-and-white lynch mob rabble rousing picture that you're trying to present.

If your highest paid players step up in big situations, then WTF was going on with Pronger last night?

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04-10-2010, 01:43 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If you don't replace Hartnell with a player of his offensive skill set, this team has a MASSIVE problem in front of the net. This is the part I think people completely overlook. Hartnell has a hand in a lot of goals that he never gets statistical credit for. Once Knuble left, Hartnell became the only player on this roster with a real nose/skill for the front of the net area...and he's really very good at setting screens.
Disagree- we will have fewer penalties for goalie interference for sure,though.


The Flyers have changed their game, since Nobody (including Hartnell) is "picking garbage in front of the net". So his value is way bellow asking price even for the team.

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04-10-2010, 01:45 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No, dude, I'm just problematizing your black-and-white lynch mob rabble rousing picture that you're trying to present.

If your highest paid players step up in big situations, then WTF was going on with Pronger last night?
What? I'm not saying "lynch Hartnell", I'm saying that he's not a foxhole guy.

And Pronger made 1 bad decision with the puck where Boosh couldn't bail him out, created our 3rd goal, and was on the ice for all of our goals. I mean, give me a break, Pronger has stepped up in countless situations this season. When has Hartnell stepped up?

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04-10-2010, 01:46 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
What? I'm not saying "lynch Hartnell", I'm saying that he's not a foxhole guy.

And Pronger made 1 bad decision with the puck where Boosh couldn't bail him out, created our 3rd goal, and was on the ice for all of our goals. I mean, give me a break, Pronger has stepped up in countless situations this season. When has Hartnell stepped up?
Hey dude, your criteria. Highest paid players step up in big situations.

Chris Pronger is paid more than Scott Hartnell, his poor play had a larger impact on the game last night than anything Scott Hartnell did.

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04-10-2010, 01:48 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSKA1974 View Post
Disagree- we will have fewer penalties for goalie interference for sure,though.


The Flyers have changed their game, since Nobody (including Hartnell) is "picking garbage in front of the net". So his value is way bellow asking price even for the team.
Hey, here's the thing. Scott Hartnell ending up on Carter's line last year is a big reason he became a 40 goal scorer. A guy like Hartnell that crashes the net and creates space for someone like Carter is an ideal winger.

We've changed our game, but the front of the net remains an important part of a hockey team regardless of what style you're playing. Hartnell NEEDS TO develop more control...that can be coached.

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04-10-2010, 01:50 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
But with this team fighting for their playoff lives the last 10 games, what has Scott Hartnell done? Has he raised his level of play? When Carter went down, did Scott Hartnell step into the breach?

**** no, guy has gone on (yet another) 11 game scoreless streak and has dragged down every line he's been on. Furthermore, he took a penalty that could have been extremely costly against TO and instead of learning a lesson, he took an even worse one against the NYR.
No, but in fairness to Hartnell pretty much no forward stepped up when Carter went down. Richards only had 2 points when Carter went down, 1 being the empty net goal vs Toronto. Hartnell's been awful this season, but the offense as a whole pretty much went invisible when they needed everyone to step up their game when they lost Carter.

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04-10-2010, 01:51 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hey dude, your criteria. Highest paid players step up in big situations.

Chris Pronger is paid more than Scott Hartnell, his poor play had a larger impact on the game last night than anything Scott Hartnell did.
I'm sorry, Pronger was on the ice for 3 Flyers goals and set up one of them singlehandedly, when's the last time Hartnell set up a goal?

You are applying my general criteria (I specifically said "value to the Flyers for the 09-10 season"), to a specific game.

Pronger has consistently stepped up this year, Hartnell has not. Bottom line.

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04-10-2010, 01:51 PM
  #111
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I've never been a fan of Hartnell, and unless he comes out of the gate flying next year, I want him gone by the quarter mark at the latest. Or if he gets moved this summer, that's fine by me too.

I think his net presence is severely overrated, and has been absent all year anyway.

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04-10-2010, 01:52 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
No, but in fairness to Hartnell pretty much no forward stepped up when Carter went down. Richards only had 2 points when Carter went down, 1 being the empty net goal vs Toronto. Hartnell's been awful this season, but the offense as a whole pretty much went invisible when they needed everyone to step up their game when they lost Carter.
That Richards line got brutally unlucky at times and also, he got saddled with Hartnell at times as well.

But I mean, Richie was at least creating some offense. I personally think Richie's performed borderline miracles to put up 60 points while being paired with Carcillo and half-strength Gagne for much of the season.

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04-10-2010, 01:56 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I'm sorry, Pronger was on the ice for 3 Flyers goals and set up one of them singlehandedly, when's the last time Hartnell set up a goal?

You are applying my general criteria (I specifically said "value to the Flyers for the 09-10 season"), to a specific game.

Pronger has consistently stepped up this year, Hartnell has not. Bottom line.
Hartnell's actually been pulling off some fantastic centering feeds of late, and a few of 'em have even ended up in the back of the net.

But your criteria is "big situations," by definition "big situations" are going to be a finite number of events...and none was bigger than last night, when we could have avoided playing a must win game tomorrow.

And the offense from Pronger is great and all, but you can't let Dubinsky just walk over and pick up the puck next to the net. You have to be smarter than to try a stupid cross-ice pass with Gaborik there (really, the only guy on the Rags that scares you). Pronger has been fantastic this year, and is easily this team's MVP. But he also likes to call people out for their stupid ****, so he's gotta be a bit better in that big of a game.

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04-10-2010, 01:57 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
That Richards line got brutally unlucky at times and also, he got saddled with Hartnell at times as well.

But I mean, Richie was at least creating some offense. I personally think Richie's performed borderline miracles to put up 60 points while being paired with Carcillo and half-strength Gagne for much of the season.
Haha no doubt Richie has been saddled with some awful wingers this year. I'm just saying, I can't kill just Hartnell for the last 10 games when no one else had really stepped up until last night. But I agree with your ultimate point that we needed him to step up more this season.

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04-10-2010, 01:58 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hey, here's the thing. Scott Hartnell ending up on Carter's line last year is a big reason he became a 40 goal scorer. A guy like Hartnell that crashes the net and creates space for someone like Carter is an ideal winger.

We've changed our game, but the front of the net remains an important part of a hockey team regardless of what style you're playing. Hartnell NEEDS TO develop more control...that can be coached.
He is way beyond a "developmental stage" of his carrer. When you are 28 and paid that much money- you assist with the younger players development.

@ 28 you either have control, or you don't.

And, I am for one, do not have any more patience to experiment with his "development".

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04-10-2010, 01:59 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hartnell's actually been pulling off some fantastic centering feeds of late, and a few of 'em have even ended up in the back of the net.

But your criteria is "big situations," by definition "big situations" are going to be a finite number of events...and none was bigger than last night, when we could have avoided playing a must win game tomorrow.

And the offense from Pronger is great and all, but you can't let Dubinsky just walk over and pick up the puck next to the net. You have to be smarter than to try a stupid cross-ice pass with Gaborik there (really, the only guy on the Rags that scares you). Pronger has been fantastic this year, and is easily this team's MVP. But he also likes to call people out for their stupid ****, so he's gotta be a bit better in that big of a game.
How is going D to D "a stupid cross-ice pass"? Someone explain that one to me. I don't play D personally, but I've never had a problem with it. Puck bounced on him, **** happens.

I am semi-amazed that you are defending Hartnell by bashing the team's MVP for bounces that went against him in a big game.

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04-10-2010, 02:03 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSKA1974 View Post
He is way beyond a "developmental stage" of his carrer. When you are 28 and paid that much money- you assist with the younger players development.

@ 28 you either have control, or you don't.

And, I am for one, do not have any more patience to experiment with his "development".
This isn't about development as a hockey player, it's behavioral correction... and no one is ever beyond that given the right stimulus to change. I could get you to do whatever I wanted with a taser as the incentive.

Hartnell wants to play... if he keeps being stupid, you take that away from him. This has never been consistently applied to him (here at least).

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
How is going D to D "a stupid cross-ice pass"? Someone explain that one to me. I don't play D personally, but I've never had a problem with it. Puck bounced on him, **** happens.

I am semi-amazed that you are defending Hartnell by bashing the team's MVP for bounces that went against him in a big game.
Trying to put a BOUNCING puck cross-ice with a forward of Gaborik's speed on his ass was stupid. The safe play was to keep it in front of his body, and/or push it to the boards, or back up the boards. By putting the puck to his right and having a BOUNCING puck do what bouncing pucks do....he played that puck into that problem, whereas it wasn't a problem prior to then.

Moreover, I'm not defending Hartnell explicitly. Your argument against Hartnell is that he hasn't stepped up in the biggest situations... which is a completely arbitrary way of trying to analyze someone, as seen with the guy that is clearly our MVP having a TERRIBLE game defensively in our most important game of the season.

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04-10-2010, 02:08 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Trying to put a BOUNCING puck cross-ice with a forward of Gaborik's speed on his ass was stupid. The safe play was to keep it in front of his body, and/or push it to the boards, or back up the boards. By putting the puck to his right and having a BOUNCING puck do what bouncing pucks do....he played that puck into that problem, whereas it wasn't a problem prior to then.

Moreover, I'm not defending Hartnell explicitly. Your argument against Hartnell is that he hasn't stepped up in the biggest situations... which is a completely arbitrary way of trying to analyze someone, as seen with the guy that is clearly our MVP having a TERRIBLE game defensively in our most important game of the season.
I guarantee you that Pronger has made that play 100 other times, the 101st one, he got a bad bounce.

Anyways, I personally don't think either play was horrible defensively because a competent goaltender makes relatively routine saves on both plays.

This is about Scott Hartnell, I don't feel like going into a bashfest on our best player.

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04-10-2010, 02:10 PM
  #119
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A shame Pronger picked last night to have his worst game of the year. God forbid the friggin goalie bail him out though. This is just flat out not a good team anyway you slice it.

They do not have the cability to go for the win when it is needed, it is a mentality that they lack as they are a mentally challenged team. This has lasted two + seasons and two coaches.

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04-10-2010, 02:54 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If you don't replace Hartnell with a player of his offensive skill set, this team has a MASSIVE problem in front of the net. This is the part I think people completely overlook. Hartnell has a hand in a lot of goals that he never gets statistical credit for. Once Knuble left, Hartnell became the only player on this roster with a real nose/skill for the front of the net area...and he's really very good at setting screens.
although i hate him, david clarkson from the debs is an rfa, and at 875k steal for someone who likes the front of the net. i think he could reach better potential

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04-10-2010, 03:35 PM
  #121
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although i hate him, david clarkson from the debs is an rfa, and at 875k steal for someone who likes the front of the net. i think he could reach better potential
Clarkson is pimp. I'd love to have him on this team.

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04-10-2010, 03:44 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Clarkson is pimp. I'd love to have him on this team.


Yeah, put me on that list as well.

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04-10-2010, 04:27 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I guarantee you that Pronger has made that play 100 other times, the 101st one, he got a bad bounce.

Anyways, I personally don't think either play was horrible defensively because a competent goaltender makes relatively routine saves on both plays.

This is about Scott Hartnell, I don't feel like going into a bashfest on our best player.
I don't know if those saves are quite routine, but a decent goalie needs to (and usually will) get one of those two shots.

I think Scotty's increased effort as of late has been visible. He has been rumbling and stumbling his big ass all over the ice (he isn't a graceful skater but when he needs to he actually can get somewhere in a bit of a hurry), and his work on the boards has been really great at times.



If we are going to ***** about someone, let's ***** about Briere's inconsistency. He went from being a -22 player a few years ago to a -2 player this year, clearly he has been working on his defense and I have to give him credit for that. He also had a big game last night and he plays big in Montreal in front of his family, and the play offs too. The point being that he has the ability to elevate his game in a huge way when it matters, and I quite frankly don't think that happens often enough with him. He was great last night, but @ 6.5 million, he needs to be great most nights.


Quote:
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Clarkson is pimp. I'd love to have him on this team.
I'm 4th in the Clarkson boat.

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04-10-2010, 05:13 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
A shame Pronger picked last night to have his worst game of the year. God forbid the friggin goalie bail him out though. This is just flat out not a good team anyway you slice it.

They do not have the cability to go for the win when it is needed, it is a mentality that they lack as they are a mentally challenged team. This has lasted two + seasons and two coaches.
It kind of bothers me that the local media goes out of the way to say what a great leader he is, and how wonderful his fire is and yada, yada, yada....but then, in the money game, he comes out and plays awful.

I'm not trying to rip him, but last night the maligned Richards stepped up and had a very good game. Pronger was a near disaster out there.

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04-10-2010, 05:18 PM
  #125
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It kind of bothers me that the local media goes out of the way to say what a great leader he is, and how wonderful his fire is and yada, yada, yada....but then, in the money game, he comes out and plays awful.

I'm not trying to rip him, but last night the maligned Richards stepped up and had a very good game. Pronger was a near disaster out there.
Disaster? He was +1 and I guess you missed his great outlet pass for Richards goal.

He gaffed on a goal, I will give credit to a player who came to play 70 games this year than to one who showed up to about maybe 40 games.

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