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How Rare Are Pure Snipers?

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04-11-2010, 11:16 AM
  #1
Drew75
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How Rare Are Pure Snipers?

I'm curious, and just for discussion sake ... I'm talking about those natural goal scorers along the Temuu Selanne / Brett Hull type .... guys where 30 goals in 82 games is an "off" year ...

I could just be ignorant, but looking around the league - and taking away the generational superstars like Ovy, Stamkos and Crosby ... how many are there really? I can think of Heatly, Kovy, "glass" Gaborik, Nash, and Kessel, and .... who?

It seems a rare comodity ...

Does that make a sniper more valuable than a solid 2 way centre who seems easier to obtain, or is it that a pure smiper is a "nice to have", and not necessary for success?

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04-11-2010, 11:18 AM
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Pierre Gotye
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I think if Kessel stays healthy next year, and the Leafs get better help up front, he can get to 40 no problem. 45 or 50 would sure be nice.

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04-11-2010, 11:19 AM
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You need both to win.

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04-11-2010, 11:22 AM
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I'd add Semin to that list, he's got a lethal shot. I wouldn't say Crosby is a 'pure sniper' because he's more a playmaker who decided to start shooting.

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04-11-2010, 11:22 AM
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Ad Daniel Sedin, though he is also an all round player who is good on the boards.

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04-11-2010, 11:38 AM
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Drew75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Th4thurt View Post
You need both to win.
But which type of player has more value? it seems there are more guys able to put up 70 points in a more all round role than there are pure snipers. Does that make the sniper more valuable?

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04-11-2010, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Corleone View Post
I'd add Semin to that list, he's got a lethal shot. I wouldn't say Crosby is a 'pure sniper' because he's more a playmaker who decided to start shooting.
He's not a 'pure sniper', but in his worst statistical year for goals in the NHL he still notched 33. He's a top tier goal scorer, even though he has a pass-first mentality.

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04-11-2010, 11:50 AM
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Snipers are gamebreakers. you need that constant threat (if you don't have a generational talent type guy.)

I know Kessel is largely just a shooter at present (wristers not a traditional Hull-esque sniper), but I think there's more to his game to come. He showed some good vision this year, and put up some pretty impressive assist numbers. When his board play smartens up and he cuts down on turnovers along the high boards, he could be more than just a stand and shoot guy like Heatley.

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04-11-2010, 11:51 AM
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Tim Vezina Thomas
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By pure snipers do you mean people that are only average in other parts of their game like Kovalchuk, Gaborik and Kessel? Or do you mean pure snipers who have everything in their game like Oveckin, Crosby, Stamkos etc.?

All im saying is I find it difficult to put Kovalchuk Gaborik and Kessel in the same "sniper" category as Ovy.

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04-11-2010, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
He's not a 'pure sniper', but in his worst statistical year for goals in the NHL he still notched 33. He's a top tier goal scorer, even though he has a pass-first mentality.
I agree, most of his goals come in close to the net or in around the crease. He really just has all around some of the best vision and timing, even though I can't stand the guy.

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04-11-2010, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
By pure snipers do you mean people that are only average in other parts of their game like Kovalchuk, Gaborik and Kessel? Or do you mean pure snipers who have everything in their game like Oveckin, Crosby, Stamkos etc.?

All im saying is I find it difficult to put Kovalchuk Gaborik and Kessel in the same "sniper" category as Ovy.
he pretty clearly differentiated between the snipers he mentioned and the generational talents like Ovy and Sid.

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04-11-2010, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew75 View Post
I'm curious, and just for discussion sake ... I'm talking about those natural goal scorers along the Temuu Selanne / Brett Hull type .... guys where 30 goals in 82 games is an "off" year ...

I could just be ignorant, but looking around the league - and taking away the generational superstars like Ovy, Stamkos and Crosby ... how many are there really? I can think of Heatly, Kovy, "glass" Gaborik, Nash, and Kessel, and .... who?

It seems a rare comodity ...

Does that make a sniper more valuable than a solid 2 way centre who seems easier to obtain, or is it that a pure sniper is a "nice to have", and not necessary for success?
How many of those pure snipers have been on Cup winning teams?

- Atlanta has played 1 playoff series in 10 years with Kovy scoring 50 goals ..
- Rick Nash Columbus Blue Jackets 1 playoff appearance in his 7 years..
- Atlanta never made the playoffs with Heatley and even Ottawa missed the playoffs last year with Heatley on board.
- Minnesota Wild missed the 5 of the 7 years with Gaborik on board.

- Leafs are #29 overall with Kessel, TB with Stamkos scoring 50 goals finished 26th, Columbus with Nash 24th overall, Atlanta with Kovy 22nd. NYR now with Gaborik fighting for their playoff lives in game #82 and currently also out of a playoff spot..

How come the majority of the Teams that deploy the pure snipers are among the NON Playoff teams on a regular basis including this season?

While a Team like Detroit is a perennial Cup contender and winner even, because of players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, who don't only compete for scoring titles but also the winners and finalists for the Selke Trophy as best 2-way players in the NHL..

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04-11-2010, 12:33 PM
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Very true but at the same time, Minnesota, Atlanta and Columbus had terrible supporting casts for their snipers..

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04-11-2010, 12:34 PM
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Zardoz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
How many of those pure snipers have been on Cup winning teams?

- Atlanta has played 1 playoff series in 10 years with Kovy scoring 50 goals ..
- Rick Nash Columbus Blue Jackets 1 playoff appearance in his 7 years..
- Atlanta never made the playoffs with Heatley and even Ottawa missed the playoffs last year with Heatley on board.

- Minnesota Wild missed the 5 of the 7 years with Gaborik on board.

- Leafs are #29 overall with Kessel, TB with Stamkos scoring 50 goals finished 26th, Columbus with Nash 24th overall, Atlanta with Kovy 22nd. NYR now with Gaborik fighting for their playoff lives in game #82 and currently also out of a playoff spot..

How come the majority of the Teams that deploy the pure snipers are among the NON Playoff teams on a regular basis including this season?
Elias
Mogilny
Hull
Selanne

and as much as I hate Heatley, in the finals run with Ottawa he had 22 points in 20 games, 2 game winners and was a +4...

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04-11-2010, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
How many of those pure snipers have been on Cup winning teams?

- Atlanta has played 1 playoff series in 10 years with Kovy scoring 50 goals ..
- Rick Nash Columbus Blue Jackets 1 playoff appearance in his 7 years..
- Atlanta never made the playoffs with Heatley and even Ottawa missed the playoffs last year with Heatley on board.
- Minnesota Wild missed the 5 of the 7 years with Gaborik on board.

- Leafs are #29 overall with Kessel, TB with Stamkos scoring 50 goals finished 26th, Columbus with Nash 24th overall, Atlanta with Kovy 22nd. NYR now with Gaborik fighting for their playoff lives in game #82 and currently also out of a playoff spot..

How come the majority of the Teams that deploy the pure snipers are among the NON Playoff teams on a regular basis including this season?

While a Team like Detroit is a perennial Cup contender and winner even, because of players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, who don't only compete for scoring titles but also the winners and finalists for the Selke Trophy as best 2-way players in the NHL..
Tampa Bay is a Non playoff team because their goaltending sucks and their D is not very good. Replacing Stamkos with Datsyuk would not make Tampa any better

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04-11-2010, 01:03 PM
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Dustin Penner is better than Phil Kessel.

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04-11-2010, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zardoz View Post
Elias
Mogilny
Hull
Selanne

and as much as I hate Heatley, in the finals run with Ottawa he had 22 points in 20 games, 2 game winners and was a +4...
i think the point is , and i totally agree with, is you don't need a sniper to win. it can be a nice addition but 2 way play is always more important. the players you mention also played with a lot of other important players and were not by themselves.

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04-11-2010, 01:09 PM
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Mess
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Originally Posted by PhilTheThrill81 View Post
Very true but at the same time, Minnesota, Atlanta and Columbus had terrible supporting casts for their snipers..
In a Cap World its even worse because those players warrant the biggest contracts because they score the most goals, leaving less for the supporting cast to begin with. Kovy wants $10 mil per season and that's nearly 1/5 (20%) of the entire Team salary for 1 single player. So your supporting cast is already cripple because of the cost of your pure goal scorer..

Because Teams built around pure snipers are also fatally flawed and poorly constructed by design. Pure goal scorers become the focus of Teams who then focus on getting playmakers and supporting cast that can get those pure goal scorers the puck more.. Leafs plan no different this Summer to try and build up Kessel to score more goals by seeking a playmaking linemate.

However those pure goal scorers need to sacrifice defense so that they can be attacking at most times. Also guilty very often of numerous costly turnovers, because they put little thought into what happens when they lose or don't have the puck. only focused on scoring goals at all cost.

When a pure goal scorer isn't scoring he becomes a huge liability to his team contributing very little else to team success. What happens to playmaking linemates at the same time when the pure goal scorer is shutdown by the other teams defense and/or not he is not scoring? They get dragged down with him at the same time.

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04-11-2010, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
By pure snipers do you mean people that are only average in other parts of their game like Kovalchuk, Gaborik and Kessel? Or do you mean pure snipers who have everything in their game like Oveckin, Crosby, Stamkos etc.?

All im saying is I find it difficult to put Kovalchuk Gaborik and Kessel in the same "sniper" category as Ovy.
Just want to point this out, but Ovechkin's defensive game is average, and Stamkos is far from a complete player.

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04-11-2010, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
In a Cap World its even worse because those players warrant the biggest contracts because they score the most goals, leaving less for the supporting cast to begin with. Kovy wants $10 mil per season and that's nearly 1/5 (20%) of the entire Team salary for 1 single player.

Because Teams built around pure snipers are also fatally flawed and poorly constructed by design. Pure goal scorers become the focus of Teams who then focus on getting playmakers and supporting cast that can get those pure goal scorers the puck more.. Leafs plan no different this Summer to try and build up Kessel to score more goals by seeking a playmaking linemate.

However those pure goal scorers need to sacrifice defense so that they can be attacking at most times. Also guilty very often of numerous costly turnovers, because they put little thought into what happens when they lose or don't have the puck. only focused on scoring goals at all cost.

When a pure goal scorer isn't scoring he becomes a huge liability to his team contributing very little else to team success. What happens to playmaking linemates at the same time when the pure goal scorer is shutdown by the other teams defense and/or not he is not scoring? They get dragged down with him at the same time.
I agree for the most part, Mess, but it's also important to consider that the pure sniper, whoever he is, plays on one line.

He might take full control of the line, demand the puck the most, but there are still three more lines on the team that can be constructed keeping the two-way style a preference.

New Jersey is a prime example. Zach Parise may be one of the best pure snipers in the league but Lou has built such a competitive team around him, and plays such a system where a player like Parise is utilized to a T. This might not be that great of an example considering Parise is a far better overall player than Kessel but what I'm trying to get is that at 21 years of age, we know that Kessel can score with the best of them. The remaining years of his in the NHL will determine if he will give importance to playing the two-way style or not. I'm willing to give him some time.

All in all, I think having snipers on your team is great. Atlanta could have built a powerhouse around Kovalchuk if they wanted. But Waddel couldn't solve their goaltending issues, their defense issues, and provide him with a solid supporting cast.

Burke's goal is not to build around Kessel. IMO, I think he wants to build around Gustavsson. He's said on numerous occasions that he learned from his mistake in Vancouver (regarding goaltending), and that this will be an area where he'll never be short in going forward, and we saw that in Anaheim (Bryzgalov, Giguere, Hiller). Then he addressed our defense and we can see for the past month and a half how the defense is coming together.

With the defense set, then he'll move on and address the forwards. It's a great plan and one that I'm excited to see unfold. His approach has been much different, and refreshing to be honest. We'll have to stay tuned.

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Old
04-11-2010, 01:23 PM
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Dustin Penner is better than Phil Kessel.
Are your parents brother and sister?

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04-11-2010, 01:28 PM
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Tim Vezina Thomas
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Just want to point this out, but Ovechkin's defensive game is average, and Stamkos is far from a complete player.
OVies D is better than Kessels Kovies and Gaboriks. And id rather have Stamkos' game than any of these, but yea i see what youre saying. (not sarcasm)

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04-11-2010, 01:31 PM
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Dustin Penner is better than Phil Kessel.
Clearly you're a 13 year old boy from Edmonton.

Penner is nowhere near the player Kessel is.

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04-11-2010, 01:31 PM
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Zardoz
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i think the point is , and i totally agree with, is you don't need a sniper to win. it can be a nice addition but 2 way play is always more important. the players you mention also played with a lot of other important players and were not by themselves.
I just don't think scoring ability should be downplayed by pointing out a bunch of non-playoff teams with snipers on them, those teams all have two way forwards as well, and are no better off for it.

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04-11-2010, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
OVies D is better than Kessels Kovies and Gaboriks. And id rather have Stamkos' game than any of these, but yea i see what youre saying. (not sarcasm)
Ovechkin does not play D, I don't know how you can say that he does. Backchecking is anathema to him, but with the way he plays you can look past it, usually. Stamkos and Gaborik at least skate in their own end and make an effort.

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