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Old
04-11-2010, 10:34 AM
  #26
ULF_55
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
Do we build to make the playoffs or build to win a championship. Do I think he is a good player-yes but grossly over paid by management. Andrew Reycroft won the most games of any Leaf goalie in one year, does that make dealing Tukka Rask alright......sorry..my keyboard has turned french on me-no question mark symbol.
I had that happen to me once.

Anyway, I do think Kessel is a one dimensional player, and no I would not have made that deal.

At most, I'd have made the offer sheet and if that failed I'd have moved on.

If I was willing to give up two 1st. round picks and a 2nd., I'd have shopped them around the league to see what I might be able to get along the lines of a young complete player. Who knows, if Burke did that, but I suspect Burke had his eyes on Kessel from the get go.

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He was the Leafs' leading scorer in the 196364, 196667 and 196970 seasons, and the team's top goal scorer in 197071 and 197273. Keon was considered one of the fastest skaters in the NHL, and one of the best defensive forwards of his era.[3] He would usually play against the opposing team's top centre, and developed a reputation for neutralizing some of the league's top scorers. In 197071, he scored eight shorthanded goals, setting an NHL record.
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04-11-2010, 10:35 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by fisher6 View Post
Before Beauchemin' 08-09 season was cut short due to injury, he put up solid years in Anaheim (including winning a Cup with them). I have no problem with Beauch as a player, although I may have hoped for a bit more out of him. His track record shows he's a useful, solid defender. The only error Burke may have made is signing Beauch to an already crowded blue line. Maybe the money could have gone towards a free agent forward last year, maybe not. I really can't remember last year's free agency pool enough to say.

.
I don't think there was much room up front last year. We had Tlusty, Bozak, Stahlberg, Hanson in the minors, with Stajan, Blake, Kessel, Poni, Grabs, Kulemin, Mitchell all fighting for 6 positions, and there wasn't much room for an impact forward at what it cost for Beauch. Remember he signed Beauch for about the same as Finger, Commodore or Saarich, so he got a pretty good deal. We didn't know Gunnarson would step up to crowd the blue line, and he was trying to insulate average goaltending. Unfortunately, goaltending wasn't even average the 1st 2/3 of the season.

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04-11-2010, 10:41 AM
  #28
daveleaf
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I had that happen to me once.

Anyway, I do think Kessel is a one dimensional player, and no I would not have made that deal.

At most, I'd have made the offer sheet and if that failed I'd have moved on.

If I was willing to give up two 1st. round picks and a 2nd., I'd have shopped them around the league to see what I might be able to get along the lines of a young complete player. Who knows, if Burke did that, but I suspect Burke had his eyes on Kessel from the get go.
I agree with you there. Burke didn't want to make an offer sheet since he had mud on his face from the Kevin Lowe/Dustin Penner situation. It's just this organization under values it's first round pic. What did we send over for Bell anyway? Was that a first pic too?

I think Phill is a good player but not a franchise player you find at the top of the board. This should have been easy. He should have played Pogge for the last fifteen games last year instead of putting Gerber in there. Should have finished near the top of the draft board. Should have tried to trade Toskola right at training camp since this was a rebuilding team and not a re-tool.

Hey guys. He called it wrong and he is getting paid to call it right. I don't think this team will be able to find the young franchise players to compete year after year. That is what he said....".....we want a team that can compete for championships every year.."...how do you do that if you trade you biggest chance at getting them?

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04-11-2010, 10:45 AM
  #29
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I'm just bummed. To think that I won't see a Toronto Stanley cup winner for many years to come really gets to me. Toronto is hockey. I don't care about the Raptors or the Blue Jays or FC. Toronto is hockey.

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04-11-2010, 10:45 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by nomorewhining View Post
I don't think there was much room up front last year. We had Tlusty, Bozak, Stahlberg, Hanson in the minors, with Stajan, Blake, Kessel, Poni, Grabs, Kulemin, Mitchell all fighting for 6 positions, and there wasn't much room for an impact forward at what it cost for Beauch. Remember he signed Beauch for about the same as Finger, Commodore or Saarich, so he got a pretty good deal. We didn't know Gunnarson would step up to crowd the blue line, and he was trying to insulate average goaltending. Unfortunately, goaltending wasn't even average the 1st 2/3 of the season.
It's true. There wasn't much room for an impact forward until the Phanuef deal.

To the others, I'm really not sitting here considering Burke to be our perfect messiah. I do think he did what he could to improve this team, and I like our team much better now than I did at the beginning of the year.

No, we're not getting Hall or Seguin, but there are plenty of teams who have added piece by piece here and there and still managed to be a good team. I'm okay with a slow rebuild. I think Burke can make this team to be a playoff team. Maybe we won't be contending for a Cup next year, but as long as we're in the playoff hunt, I'm ok with that.



And a small, perhaps crazy part of me thinks that if we had the opportunity to draft Hall or Seguin, they would be eaten alive by the fans, media, and perhaps these very forums, haha.

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04-11-2010, 10:46 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I put a chart in another post:

PlayerTeamGamesGAASave%
Vesa ToskalaTOR263.66.874
Jean-Sebastien GiguereTOR142.46.915



Burke was stuck with Toskala, but I wonder if he had been demoted to the minors and if they had gone with Joey Mac if things would have been any worse?

Financially, it would have been a wash, Joey Mac being on a one-way contract, but it would have cleared cap space.

I doubt Toskala was an incentive in the Giguere trade.


No... taking Tosk and Blake were just the price that the Ducks had to pay in order to move a year and a half of JSG's $6M contract. Don't forget that they'd just given Hiller $4M+ in order to prevent him from walking away as a UFA. It's all about taking advantage of teams who are in cap trouble... preferably teams whose ownership will not green light moving big contracts to the AHL (as ours almost certainly would). Even the Phaneuf trade was about cap flexibility for Calgary moving forward. You can come up with some almost inexplicable trades that way. I'm looking for 1 or 2 more this summer.

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04-11-2010, 10:49 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I'm not rating Kessel here, just the deal to acquire him.

Kessel for Seguin/Hall is an okay move.
add in that other 2nd for this year and the first for next year and you have yourself an awful deal!

I personally would rather have Hall or Seguin over Kessel to be honest. Kid turns it over a ton and when he isn't scoring he isn't doing much else.


oh well. deal is done

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04-11-2010, 10:53 AM
  #33
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... and I like our team much better now than I did at the beginning of the year.
I would hope there isn't a Leafs fan who feels differently.

If there is I'd like to hear the reasons why. (outside of the missing draft picks which aren't part of the team anyway.)

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04-11-2010, 10:55 AM
  #34
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Fact is they, management, saw how there goalie got lit up last game of pre-season and from there own admission thought they had to look at their goalie situation and yet still went ahead and made THE trade.
The Leafs played well in the preseason, and the last game is usuallu a gong show.


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You guys make Burke out to be the next coming of christ. For the great move of bring in Dion still remains the monumental mistake of trading away the future again. They dolled out millions on the blue line and had horrendous play from the back end. One right doesn't hide two wrongs. Sure, all you guys will start bring up the college free agents and what a glorious find they are. Hanson only showed up last game of the year. Bozak is a nice surprise but when I sit here and ask myself can I see the combination of Bozak-Kulemin and Kessel and can they hold up through an 82 game schedule and can they in a seven game series beat Pitt, Wash, Car, T-bay, Phy and the answer is no but Bozak will be a decent addition-jury is still out on Hanson. This team has so far to go. This year will mark the fifth year missing the playoffs, third in Burkes tenure but this at the time was a re-tool and not a rebuild.
Please remember by moving out the future, he brought in a 22 year old sniper, and this is Burke's 1st full season. He came in in Nov of 2008, and missed the playoffs last year and this year. He strongly underestimated his goaltending and we were all surprised how Schenn, Komi and Beauch struggled, and Kabs was crap the last 1/2 of the season.

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He misunderstood the horrendous shape of this franchise and instead of coming out and saying this team sucked, has no real prospect depth and we are going to build through the draft and this might take five years. He lied to the fans, said they were a playoff bound team this year. Under his own admission, said he was unprepared to trade Thomas Kaberle at last years draft even though that was his most valuable commodity and trading chip. In the last few years I see mistake after mistake, misunderstanding the state of the team sprinkled in with some good moves and a team tight to the cap. Yet I hear that this was not his doing. Was it not his doing to make sure Komisarek was actually healthy before signing him?
There are so many things you state here as truth, but they are only your interpretation of reality.


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He didn't want to over-pay Cammileri but it was ok to over-pay for Phil Kessel? For all the right it is hard to look past all the wrong. It is hard to look past other organizations finishing near the bottom and building with potential future stars yet we are devoid of having that luxury. I get sick and tired of hearing we will make the playoffs soon-to hell with the playoffs-you play to win championships and only one team can win every year but do you see the pieces here to compete in future years.
Kessel, Kadri, Kulemin and Bozak could be key contirbuters in the future at forward. Phaneuf, Schenn, Gunnarson are all under 25, and Komi is under 30. Kaberle will be traded for an impact player, and as of today, this team is not tight up to the cap. This season is over, we are now looking at next year, and there is capspace. Gustavson may also be a special goalie one day.

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I see you guys believing but this team has far to go. I would not be surprised if the playoff drought goes into 8 and 9 years. Many of the teams in the Eastern Conference already have the pieces in place to compete for championships, where is Toronto's?
stated above.

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I hope you guys are right but history tells me that we are headed down the same path again and we still have a hard lesson to learn. Great organizations are built through the draft, they focus on young talent and add them. Top end talent is found at the top of the draft board, college free agents are nice additions but never to be confused with top end talent. We have consistently traded away our future and this is no more evident than now. Sure you guys will argue that you just don't know what you will get and for the most part you are right but the last six or seven years we are seeing teams doing much better at evaluating talent. I look at Boston, they will have our franchise goalie, probably franchise player in Hall or Seguin and a nice future addition of a high second round pic and a top pic net year. Again. Toronto has always under valued their own draft pics-we are the developmental team for the league and that has not changed.
History says we are on the same path? When was the last time Toronto had players of Kessel, Schenn, Kadri, Bozak, Gunnarson and Phaneuf's value all at the same time. This is not history repeating itself. We have the youngest team in the league and Burke has a plan. JFJ never had a plan, he just tried to bandage things up, and made reaqlly bad trades.

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When will this franchise learn to fix all the problems of the past they need to take two steps back, completely blow it up and begin with new. We will not make the playoffs for atleast 8 years, in that time frame we could have emerged with a strong franchise with franchise players yet we are stuck continually trying to cover yesterdays mistake with today band aid. This is Leaf land, never has changed in 42 years and never will. I read an interesting post from a Flyer fan and his comment was they flyers would trade their 2nd round pic from 2010-2017 for no particular reason and for nothing of value in return. Are we any different, instead we trade away first round talent. I love the Leafs but I look at this objectively and history tells me nothing has changed.
I think you fell asleep two years ago and just woke up and haven't looked at the roster yet. This team is completely blown up, we have a young hard working team with speed to burn. We still need to develop, and see where we are at.

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04-11-2010, 10:58 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by The Nic View Post
[/B]

No... taking Tosk and Blake were just the price that the Ducks had to pay in order to move a year and a half of JSG's $6M contract. Don't forget that they'd just given Hiller $4M+ in order to prevent him from walking away as a UFA. It's all about taking advantage of teams who are in cap trouble... preferably teams whose ownership will not green light moving big contracts to the AHL (as ours almost certainly would). Even the Phaneuf trade was about cap flexibility for Calgary moving forward. You can come up with some almost inexplicable trades that way. I'm looking for 1 or 2 more this summer.
Kind of upsetting that the League is financially propping up the Coyotes with money they take from the other teams.

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04-11-2010, 10:59 AM
  #36
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I agree with you there. Burke didn't want to make an offer sheet since he had mud on his face from the Kevin Lowe/Dustin Penner situation. It's just this organization under values it's first round pic. What did we send over for Bell anyway? Was that a first pic too?

I think Phill is a good player but not a franchise player you find at the top of the board. This should have been easy. He should have played Pogge for the last fifteen games last year instead of putting Gerber in there. Should have finished near the top of the draft board. Should have tried to trade Toskola right at training camp since this was a rebuilding team and not a re-tool.

Hey guys. He called it wrong and he is getting paid to call it right. I don't think this team will be able to find the young franchise players to compete year after year. That is what he said....".....we want a team that can compete for championships every year.."...how do you do that if you trade you biggest chance at getting them?
Gerber was terrible and waived when he was brought in, so there was no expectation of him to do anything. Pogge woiuld have been ruined. And who the hell wanted Toskola by way of trade unless we were getting back another bad contract. We had enough of those kind of underachieving guys.

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04-11-2010, 11:00 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by KapG View Post
add in that other 2nd for this year and the first for next year and you have yourself an awful deal!

I personally would rather have Hall or Seguin over Kessel to be honest. Kid turns it over a ton and when he isn't scoring he isn't doing much else.


oh well. deal is done
really?

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04-11-2010, 11:20 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by nomorewhining View Post
Gerber was terrible and waived when he was brought in, so there was no expectation of him to do anything. Pogge woiuld have been ruined. And who the hell wanted Toskola by way of trade unless we were getting back another bad contract. We had enough of those kind of underachieving guys.
But he did it in NHL 10.

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Originally Posted by KapG View Post
add in that other 2nd for this year and the first for next year and you have yourself an awful deal!

I personally would rather have Hall or Seguin over Kessel to be honest. Kid turns it over a ton and when he isn't scoring he isn't doing much else.


oh well. deal is done
Not sure how often you've seen Hall. But it's funny how the bolded part can be said about him as well.

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04-11-2010, 11:25 AM
  #39
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History says we are on the same path? When was the last time Toronto had players of Kessel, Schenn, Kadri, Bozak, Gunnarson and Phaneuf's value all at the same time. This is not history repeating itself. We have the youngest team in the league and Burke has a plan. JFJ never had a plan, he just tried to bandage things up, and made reaqlly bad trades.

Oh. I guess we can go back to the 80's when we had Courtnall, Clark, McGill, Gill, Marois, Leeman, Podubny, Thomas, Iafrate and many many others. Courtnall was a more complete player than Kessel one can argue.

You fail to realize I have watched this play unfold time and time again and still the ending with the same ending. Sorry man. There are a few nice pieces here but not the players to compete with Wash, Pitt, Car, T-bay, Boston and others.

I'm with all of you: a Leaf fan but I have seen this before and it stinks. Same sh** different year. Sure there is a little optimism but we traded away, again, our future for something someone else didn't really want.

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04-11-2010, 11:28 AM
  #40
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I think you fell asleep two years ago and just woke up and haven't looked at the roster yet. This team is completely blown up, we have a young hard working team with speed to burn. We still need to develop, and see where we are at.

I am glad you said that because apparently this is a re-tool. From Burke that is. You say now it is blown up yet again we have done the same and traded away the very benefit of blowing something up.

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04-11-2010, 11:30 AM
  #41
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I'm just bummed. To think that I won't see a Toronto Stanley cup winner for many years to come really gets to me. Toronto is hockey. I don't care about the Raptors or the Blue Jays or FC. Toronto is hockey.
I've been a Leafs fan ever since I started following hockey, so for about the past 15 years or so, and I agree with just about everything you've said.

It's true that Burke has a job to do and that is to win. But at the same time, did he honestly believe that even if they made the playoffs with Blake, Stajan, and all those guys, that Phil Kessel was going to turn the Leafs into a legitimate Stanley Cup contender, or that Kadri alone would put them over the top for years to come? It's depressing because as much as everyone wanted to believe that to be true, I think most fans, despite what they say, realize that a slow rebuild was what we needed to build a complete team. As it stands, even if Kadri turns into a player and Kessel starts putting up points, you can't help but feel that we still don't have "that guy" who can carry the team on his shoulders and lead us to the promised land.

TBH, I just don't see us going a lot further next year either. And it sucks because guys like Kadri, Kessel, and Phaneuf are going to be the ones shouldering the blame, when I don't think they're really at fault or mentally mature enough to deal with it. It's great to have all these leaders, but I think what we needed most was an offensive leader, a guy who could take the game over when the going gets tough and the games get tight(like Sundin would). I think Hall or possibly Seguin could be that guy, not to mention the other potential blue chipper drafted with a high second rounder. And even if we didn't find "the guy" in this year's draft, we'd still have a bunch of high end youth stock piled and make a run at it next year.

I don't know, hopefully Burke has some kind of magic up his sleeve this summer. Hopefully he doesn't just make moves for the sake of making moves either, because that's what put the Leafs in this position in the first place.

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04-11-2010, 11:32 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by nomorewhining View Post
Gerber was terrible and waived when he was brought in, so there was no expectation of him to do anything. Pogge woiuld have been ruined. And who the hell wanted Toskola by way of trade unless we were getting back another bad contract. We had enough of those kind of underachieving guys.
Pogge would have been ruined? He was ruined long ago. They could have put him in there and it would have been evident to him and his agent that he would never make the right step but apparently JFJ regarded him higher than Rask. Again, another time in history when Leafs failed to value their own players and others much higher than their own.

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04-11-2010, 11:33 AM
  #43
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History says we are on the same path? When was the last time Toronto had players of Kessel, Schenn, Kadri, Bozak, Gunnarson and Phaneuf's value all at the same time. This is not history repeating itself. We have the youngest team in the league and Burke has a plan. JFJ never had a plan, he just tried to bandage things up, and made reaqlly bad trades.

Oh. I guess we can go back to the 80's when we had Courtnall, Clark, McGill, Gill, Marois, Leeman, Podubny, Thomas, Iafrate and many many others. Courtnall was a more complete player than Kessel one can argue.

You fail to realize I have watched this play unfold time and time again and still the ending with the same ending. Sorry man. There are a few nice pieces here but not the players to compete with Wash, Pitt, Car, T-bay, Boston and others.

I'm with all of you: a Leaf fan but I have seen this before and it stinks. Same sh** different year. Sure there is a little optimism but we traded away, again, our future for something someone else didn't really want.
i heartily disagree...

the last time we had a similar situation was the 70's, not the 80's

a young sittler, macdonald, thompson up front....salming and turnbull on d...palmateer in net

that team was close to serious contention when ballard got ticked and brought back a senile punch imlach...who promptly tore the heart out of that team

this is a young club...and can grow....i also question whether the draft is really the way to go in the new nhl...i think future success will come from depth, not the superstar..2 top lines that can produce will be more successful than a team carried by a couple of superstars...look at tampa these days...

and, maybe at the end of the day, goaltending carries the show...

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04-11-2010, 11:35 AM
  #44
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I've been a Leafs fan ever since I started following hockey, so for about the past 15 years or so, and I agree with just about everything you've said.

It's true that Burke has a job to do and that is to win. But at the same time, did he honestly believe that even if they made the playoffs with Blake, Stajan, and all those guys, that Phil Kessel was going to turn the Leafs into a legitimate Stanley Cup contender, or that Kadri alone would put them over the top for years to come? It's depressing because as much as everyone wanted to believe that to be true, I think most fans, despite what they say, realize that a slow rebuild was what we needed to build a complete team. As it stands, even if Kadri turns into a player and Kessel starts putting up points, you can't help but feel that we still don't have "that guy" who can carry the team on his shoulders and lead us to the promised land.

TBH, I just don't see us going a lot further next year either. And it sucks because guys like Kadri, Kessel, and Phaneuf are going to be the ones shouldering the blame, when I don't think they're really at fault or mentally mature enough to deal with it. It's great to have all these leaders, but I think what we needed most was an offensive leader, a guy who could take the game over when the going gets tough and the games get tight(like Sundin would). I think Hall or possibly Seguin could be that guy, not to mention the other potential blue chipper drafted with a high second rounder. And even if we didn't find "the guy" in this year's draft, we'd still have a bunch of high end youth stock piled and make a run at it next year.

I don't know, hopefully Burke has some kind of magic up his sleeve this summer. Hopefully he doesn't just make moves for the sake of making moves either, because that's what put the Leafs in this position in the first place.
So, a slow rebuild and you trade away two first round pics of a rebuilding team and a high second for a guy that really can't push you over the top when you don't have the players to surround him with. Kessel would be fine four years down the road when they could surround him with the right talent or a player like him.

Kind of like instead of buying a house you buy all the furniture first and then try to find a house that works with what you have. You build the house first and add the furniture to fit. Again. Toronto does things a@@ backwards.

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04-11-2010, 11:38 AM
  #45
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i heartily disagree...

the last time we had a similar situation was the 70's, not the 80's

a young sittler, macdonald, thompson up front....salming and turnbull on d...palmateer in net

that team was close to serious contention when ballard got ticked and brought back a senile punch imlach...who promptly tore the heart out of that team

this is a young club...and can grow....i also question whether the draft is really the way to go in the new nhl...i think future success will come from depth, not the superstar..2 top lines that can produce will be more successful than a team carried by a couple of superstars...look at tampa these days...

and, maybe at the end of the day, goaltending carries the show...
I could have said the 70's too but for the posters who are too young to remember that maybe they could remember the 80's. I am glad you said that though because ever decade is the same.

Not sure the draft is the way to go?! I guess you should call McPhee in Washington, what about Mario in Pitt or how about Chicago or LA. Van was built through the draft. Give me modern day teams that build otherwise. You can't!!

You build through the draft, for those who believe not the case, you are sadly mistaken.

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04-11-2010, 11:42 AM
  #46
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So, a slow rebuild and you trade away two first round pics of a rebuilding team and a high second for a guy that really can't push you over the top when you don't have the players to surround him with. Kessel would be fine four years down the road when they could surround him with the right talent or a player like him.

Kind of like instead of buying a house you buy all the furniture first and then try to find a house that works with what you have. You build the house first and add the furniture to fit. Again. Toronto does things a@@ backwards.
And the only thing you can really hope for is that Kessel sees the light and realizes that he's centre stage on the biggest hockey market in the world and busts his ass in the off season to try to realize his great potential. I think with him, it's all mental and that if he can get in better shape and become a more complete player, that will soften the blow of this trade a bit.

But the thing is, just like everything else, our success next year and for the foreseeable future is all based on if's. Can Phaneuf regain his form, can the Monster keep improving, will our young guys keep adjusting to the pro game, will Kaberle be traded for legitimate talent.... It goes on and on like that and quickly becomes apparent that nothing is a sure thing for next year.

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04-11-2010, 11:48 AM
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ULF_55
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i heartily disagree...

the last time we had a similar situation was the 70's, not the 80's

a young sittler, macdonald, thompson up front....salming and turnbull on d...palmateer in net

that team was close to serious contention when ballard got ticked and brought back a senile punch imlach...who promptly tore the heart out of that team

this is a young club...and can grow....i also question whether the draft is really the way to go in the new nhl...i think future success will come from depth, not the superstar..2 top lines that can produce will be more successful than a team carried by a couple of superstars...look at tampa these days...

and, maybe at the end of the day, goaltending carries the show...

RW reminds me of Imlach.

Imlach didn't want leadership from the players, he wanted everyone to look to him therefore Lanny had to go which was his way of taking power from Sittler.

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04-11-2010, 11:51 AM
  #48
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I'm not convinced Burke is the guy. He has shown he never stays in one place for very long. Left Hartford for NHL offices, left Van for Anaheim and Anaheim for Toronto after a few short years. You need a guy that will be there for life. Hates to loose and success is measured by Stanley Cups not the playoffs.

Do any of you guys remember Caron and the Blues when they would meet Fletcher and the Leafs in the playoffs and Caron giving Fletch the finger from across the stadium every time the Blues scored? That was hilarious. I mean I want a guy that wants to win and will be here for twenty years. Burke will make some moves this summer and be with the Leafs one more year and then call it quits. He will say something that his wife misses the warm weather and go to T-Bay or Florida or something. Everyone will be shaking there head wondering what was this guy brought here for? He really didn't do anything in Van other then the Sedins, stuck with a bad goaltender, what was his name again? Nonis, one can argue made better moves.

I don't know guys. This still stinks.

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04-11-2010, 11:54 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
So, a slow rebuild and you trade away two first round pics of a rebuilding team and a high second for a guy that really can't push you over the top when you don't have the players to surround him with. Kessel would be fine four years down the road when they could surround him with the right talent or a player like him.

Kind of like instead of buying a house you buy all the furniture first and then try to find a house that works with what you have. You build the house first and add the furniture to fit. Again. Toronto does things a@@ backwards.
But sometimes that couch you really like and that chair you always wanted is available before move in day, so you have to buy it, or it might not be available later.

Anyway, if that's how you feel about it, I feel bad for you. I've been through the 70's in Toronto Maple Leaf history, so I've done my suffering and for the fiorst time I see a GM with a plan, that doesn't include, if it doesn't work, we'll buy it later. I like the look of the team as a rebuilt, developing team, and I'll stay positive, even through the rough patches, such as finishing 29th, when I was expecting them to be around 15th-20th. Not far off really.

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04-11-2010, 11:55 AM
  #50
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RW reminds me of Imlach.

Imlach didn't want leadership from the players, he wanted everyone to look to him therefore Lanny had to go which was his way of taking power from Sittler.
Harold brought him back because the players were bigger than he was and that ticked him off. He couldn't afford to pay them so he shipped them all of. Did he not say that he wanted to ruin the Leafs before he died?

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