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Old
04-11-2010, 11:56 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
. He really didn't do anything in Van other then the Sedins,
If he brings in an Art Ross winner, I think he's done pretty good. Let alone two players like Hank and Danny in the same draft.

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04-11-2010, 11:59 AM
  #52
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But sometimes that couch you really like and that chair you always wanted is available before move in day, so you have to buy it, or it might not be available later.

Anyway, if that's how you feel about it, I feel bad for you. I've been through the 70's in Toronto Maple Leaf history, so I've done my suffering and for the fiorst time I see a GM with a plan, that doesn't include, if it doesn't work, we'll buy it later. I like the look of the team as a rebuilt, developing team, and I'll stay positive, even through the rough patches, such as finishing 29th, when I was expecting them to be around 15th-20th. Not far off really.
Rebuilt? Really? You feel the elements are there to compete in a few years for a cup? You would be the only guy in hockey that would have that view. I think TO has some good support players but not elite players to take you over the top. I don't see the plan, I see a re-tool change on the fly to a rebuild and still saying it is a re-tool. I don't see a plan at all.

I seen the 70's too-not pretty but I remain loyal. I hope one day this team can take a place at the top of the league where it rightfully belongs. History is telling me different for the short to medium term. I hope I am wrong.

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04-11-2010, 12:03 PM
  #53
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If he brings in an Art Ross winner, I think he's done pretty good. Let alone two players like Hank and Danny in the same draft.
But that was then when he believed you build through the draft. Now things are different in his eyes. For the next few years Toronto will have no opportunity to pic a player like that. He also left because of his inability to find a goalie and the Moore fiasco. Oh and he was behind that too. Just Burkie flipping out again and trickling right through the organization.

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04-11-2010, 12:04 PM
  #54
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I like what Burke said about Kessel, that we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg from him.

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04-11-2010, 12:06 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
I like what Burke said about Kessel, that we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg from him.
Only thing is, Kessel has to bust his ass over the summer to reach his potential. The guy has all the skills but has a tough time competing physically(even though I thought he tried a bit harder since the Trade Deadline). Pizza and beer aren't gonna cut it anymore, not in Toronto.

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04-11-2010, 12:08 PM
  #56
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Fact is they, management, saw how there goalie got lit up last game of pre-season and from there own admission thought they had to look at their goalie situation and yet still went ahead and made THE trade. You guys make Burke out to be the next coming of christ. For the great move of bring in Dion still remains the monumental mistake of trading away the future again. They dolled out millions on the blue line and had horrendous play from the back end. One right doesn't hide two wrongs. Sure, all you guys will start bring up the college free agents and what a glorious find they are. Hanson only showed up last game of the year. Bozak is a nice surprise but when I sit here and ask myself can I see the combination of Bozak-Kulemin and Kessel and can they hold up through an 82 game schedule and can they in a seven game series beat Pitt, Wash, Car, T-bay, Phy and the answer is no but Bozak will be a decent addition-jury is still out on Hanson. This team has so far to go. This year will mark the fifth year missing the playoffs, third in Burkes tenure but this at the time was a re-tool and not a rebuild. He misunderstood the horrendous shape of this franchise and instead of coming out and saying this team sucked, has no real prospect depth and we are going to build through the draft and this might take five years. He lied to the fans, said they were a playoff bound team this year. Under his own admission, said he was unprepared to trade Thomas Kaberle at last years draft even though that was his most valuable commodity and trading chip. In the last few years I see mistake after mistake, misunderstanding the state of the team sprinkled in with some good moves and a team tight to the cap. Yet I hear that this was not his doing. Was it not his doing to make sure Komisarek was actually healthy before signing him? He didn't want to over-pay Cammileri but it was ok to over-pay for Phil Kessel? For all the right it is hard to look past all the wrong. It is hard to look past other organizations finishing near the bottom and building with potential future stars yet we are devoid of having that luxury. I get sick and tired of hearing we will make the playoffs soon-to hell with the playoffs-you play to win championships and only one team can win every year but do you see the pieces here to compete in future years.

I see you guys believing but this team has far to go. I would not be surprised if the playoff drought goes into 8 and 9 years. Many of the teams in the Eastern Conference already have the pieces in place to compete for championships, where is Toronto's?

I hope you guys are right but history tells me that we are headed down the same path again and we still have a hard lesson to learn. Great organizations are built through the draft, they focus on young talent and add them. Top end talent is found at the top of the draft board, college free agents are nice additions but never to be confused with top end talent. We have consistently traded away our future and this is no more evident than now. Sure you guys will argue that you just don't know what you will get and for the most part you are right but the last six or seven years we are seeing teams doing much better at evaluating talent. I look at Boston, they will have our franchise goalie, probably franchise player in Hall or Seguin and a nice future addition of a high second round pic and a top pic net year. Again. Toronto has always under valued their own draft pics-we are the developmental team for the league and that has not changed.

When will this franchise learn to fix all the problems of the past they need to take two steps back, completely blow it up and begin with new. We will not make the playoffs for atleast 8 years, in that time frame we could have emerged with a strong franchise with franchise players yet we are stuck continually trying to cover yesterdays mistake with today band aid. This is Leaf land, never has changed in 42 years and never will. I read an interesting post from a Flyer fan and his comment was they flyers would trade their 2nd round pic from 2010-2017 for no particular reason and for nothing of value in return. Are we any different, instead we trade away first round talent. I love the Leafs but I look at this objectively and history tells me nothing has changed.
a) I don't think I've ever actually heard BB described to these heights - this is only used by posters who want to dump on him and discredit him.

b) It's actually the 2nd year, and he wasn't the GM from the beginning of the first season.

c) Burke didn't "lie to the fans", and he never actually said they were going to the playoffs, but that they would compete for the playoffs. It didn't happen, so now he's a liar? LMAO

Do you need to misrepresent the facts to try and make your point?

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Old
04-11-2010, 12:10 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
Rebuilt? Really? You feel the elements are there to compete in a few years for a cup? You would be the only guy in hockey that would have that view. I think TO has some good support players but not elite players to take you over the top. I don't see the plan, I see a re-tool change on the fly to a rebuild and still saying it is a re-tool. I don't see a plan at all.

I seen the 70's too-not pretty but I remain loyal. I hope one day this team can take a place at the top of the league where it rightfully belongs. History is telling me different for the short to medium term. I hope I am wrong.
The roster 2 years ago, and the roster today are completely different. It has been rebuilt. Whast you are talking about is rebuilding with 18 year olds, which can work out but doesn't always. Ask Florida about that one.

Do they need more pieces? Obviously, but that will come from development of their current assets, trades, free agency, and yes, I think they are on the road to competing. You continue to use Pitts, Washington etc as the examples to follow, but getting Crosby, Malkin, Staal, MAF in consecutive years is freak, and you can't have that expectation. I'm not convinced any of the prospects in this years draft actually project to be better than any of those 4. And lets not forget Pittsburg has used trades and free agency to try and get themselves over the top. It's not like all they have done is drafting. New Jersey and Detroit are two teams that haven't tanked, and they have been the class of the league for years. Cheer Up.

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04-11-2010, 12:13 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
But that was then when he believed you build through the draft. Now things are different in his eyes. For the next few years Toronto will have no opportunity to pic a player like that. He also left because of his inability to find a goalie and the Moore fiasco. Oh and he was behind that too. Just Burkie flipping out again and trickling right through the organization.
No, that is coincidence. He believes when you have a chance to get an elite player, you do whatever it takes to get him. It just happened to be at the draft that year. Last year he did it by getting a 22 year old for draft picks. It sucks the team underachieved and the pick is higher than expected, but he wanted an elite sniper, which there are few of in the league, and he got one.

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04-11-2010, 12:16 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Ritzie View Post
a) I don't think I've ever actually heard BB described to these heights - this is only used by posters who want to dump on him and discredit him.

b) It's actually the 2nd year, and he wasn't the GM from the beginning of the first season.

c) Burke didn't "lie to the fans", and he never actually said they were going to the playoffs, but that they would compete for the playoffs. It didn't happen, so now he's a liar? LMAO

Do you need to misrepresent the facts to try and make your point?
Am I misrepresenting him? I don't believe I am. I just listen to what he says and think about it down the road. Just like his little rant with Bob Gainey that his team was too small to make the playoff and then it's us looking at them making the playoffs. Burke makes all these statements then needs to hide them later on or try and do business differently so he doesn't look like a fool....just like the Penner situation and how it unfolded with Kessel.

It ticks you guys off that I hit the nail on the head.

One other thing. He's been here 2 1/2 years. He had another half year to evaluate the franchise.

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04-11-2010, 12:23 PM
  #60
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Am I misrepresenting him? I don't believe I am. I just listen to what he says and think about it down the road. Just like his little rant with Bob Gainey that his team was too small to make the playoff and then it's us looking at them making the playoffs. Burke makes all these statements then needs to hide them later on or try and do business differently so he doesn't look like a fool....just like the Penner situation and how it unfolded with Kessel.

It ticks you guys off that I hit the nail on the head.

One other thing. He's been here 2 1/2 years. He had another half year to evaluate the franchise.
You're interpretation is a figment of your imagination. You are making things up, or, you have completely forgotten the actual context.

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President and GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs
On November 29, 2008, Burke was introduced as the President and General Manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs, replacing interim General Manager Cliff Fletcher.
your creitability gets lost when you insist he wasn't hired 17 months ago.

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04-11-2010, 12:25 PM
  #61
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Alright. I messed that one up. I have been listening to his crap for so long that it seems like ten years and not 17 months. Still doesn't remove the fact that he is doing the same as all gm's before him in Toronto.

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04-11-2010, 12:26 PM
  #62
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I could have said the 70's too but for the posters who are too young to remember that maybe they could remember the 80's. I am glad you said that though because ever decade is the same.

Not sure the draft is the way to go?! I guess you should call McPhee in Washington, what about Mario in Pitt or how about Chicago or LA. Van was built through the draft. Give me modern day teams that build otherwise. You can't!!

You build through the draft, for those who believe not the case, you are sadly mistaken.
Detroit built there team through the 3rd round up basically. New Jersey has College players.

I just want to know something, are you trying t compare Seguin/Hall to Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin? cause there is no way in hell that they are even close to any of them. Why are they frachise players? because they are top 2 in the draft? they haven't even played a game in the NHL yet! I'm not arguing that they won't be good because they will, but you can't just mark them as franchise players when they aren't even a part of one yet.

@ your comment about BB saying we are a playoff team, he didn't say that, at the beginning of the season he said it was their goal to make the playoffs.

Also you're making it sound as if we traded our 1st/2nd round picks for some old geezer past his prime. Kessel is still only 22 and has room to improve.

Plus, do you honestly think that Hall/Seguin would be able to survive in a market like Toronto, I even have some doubts about Kadri, don't get me wrong I like Kadri and think that he's great, but the Toronto media can ruin him.

Let me ask you this, let's say that the Leafs didn't make the Kessel trade, but ended up in 10-12th(overall) place, but you find out that BB could've have made a trade to get a 22 year old sniper that can easily pot 30 goals. What then? This is what was probably going through BB's head at the time of the trade, he probably never thought that they were true playoff contenders, but also never thought that they would finish so low.

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04-11-2010, 12:26 PM
  #63
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Am I misrepresenting him? I don't believe I am. I just listen to what he says and think about it down the road. Just like his little rant with Bob Gainey that his team was too small to make the playoff and then it's us looking at them making the playoffs. Burke makes all these statements then needs to hide them later on or try and do business differently so he doesn't look like a fool....just like the Penner situation and how it unfolded with Kessel.

It ticks you guys off that I hit the nail on the head.

One other thing. He's been here 2 1/2 years. He had another half year to evaluate the franchise.
Alright Daveleaf, when we get rid of Burke in this perfect prospect world of yours who do we bring in instead of Burke? Or is anyone better than this fool we have as the Leafs GM?

And he's been here for 17 months by my account. Came here late November 2008, could be wrong though.

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04-11-2010, 12:29 PM
  #64
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Sorry. Not a figment of my imagination. I have heard so much Brian Burke crap the last little bit that it seems like a generation. You guys seem to give him more slack then he deserves. At least I can give the Red Wing organization credit. They go about the management of their hockey team in a classy under the radar type of way. Don't try and bring more attention to them that is needed. What was he thinking wearing a mic at the draft? As soon as he would go up to a GM they would walk away. Burke and Wilson need to be bigger then the team. Jerry Jones of the Cowboys said something very interesting a year ago. No player, coach or him, the owner will ever be bigger then the Cowboys just before he cut Terrel Owens. Yet we have a management team that believes they are.

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04-11-2010, 12:31 PM
  #65
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Am I misrepresenting him? I don't believe I am. I just listen to what he says and think about it down the road. Just like his little rant with Bob Gainey that his team was too small to make the playoff and then it's us looking at them making the playoffs. Burke makes all these statements then needs to hide them later on or try and do business differently so he doesn't look like a fool....just like the Penner situation and how it unfolded with Kessel.
Actually, you are misrepresenting what he said. Burke never promised to make the playoffs. Thats a fact. He never said he had any issue with offer sheets, just that Penner's deal was overpayment and underhanded. Thats a fact- he's even on record at the time saying that. I haven't heard of his rant about Bob Gainey, but I'm sure you're misrepresenting that too.


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It ticks you guys off that I hit the nail on the head.
Don't pat yourself on the back too hard.


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One other thing. He's been here 2 1/2 years. He had another half year to evaluate the franchise.
Hit the wrong nail on the head. Burke has been here less than 1.5 years. Thats a fact.

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04-11-2010, 12:31 PM
  #66
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Sorry. Not a figment of my imagination. I have heard so much Brian Burke crap the last little bit that it seems like a generation. You guys seem to give him more slack then he deserves. At least I can give the Red Wing organization credit. They go about the management of their hockey team in a classy under the radar type of way. Don't try and bring more attention to them that is needed. What was he thinking wearing a mic at the draft? As soon as he would go up to a GM they would walk away. Burke and Wilson need to be bigger then the team. Jerry Jones of the Cowboys said something very interesting a year ago. No player, coach or him, the owner will ever be bigger then the Cowboys just before he cut Terrel Owens. Yet we have a management team that believes they are.
You gonna use Jerry Jones as the example for your arguement? Ha! I don't need to say anymore.

Brian Burke loves the media but he pales in comparison to Jerry Freakin' Jones on the megalomaniac side of things. In Jerry Jones' mind, he is the Cowboys, and he shipped out TO because he got more press than JJ himself.

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04-11-2010, 12:32 PM
  #67
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Alright Daveleaf, when we get rid of Burke in this perfect prospect world of yours who do we bring in instead of Burke? Or is anyone better than this fool we have as the Leafs GM?

And he's been here for 17 months by my account. Came here late November 2008, could be wrong though.
No. You're right and I was wrong with the dates. Who? Someone who believes you build through the draft and is willing to wait on it. Sure, there will be some misses but from my recollection who has built a stanley cup winner through FA and trading? Many teams added pieces but the core was through the draft. I want someone who is younger and wants this gig bad, wants to retire as a Leaf GM and has aspirations of bringing many stanley cups to toronto. Burke has shown he will not stay anywhere long. Do you see him fulfilling his contract here?

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04-11-2010, 12:34 PM
  #68
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What was he thinking wearing a mic at the draft? As soon as he would go up to a GM they would walk away.
Really? How do you know?

Bryan Murray doesn't seem to be walking away here:
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source...JtL09sQY4vKxDg

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04-11-2010, 12:34 PM
  #69
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You gonna use Jerry Jones as the example for your arguement? Ha! I don't need to say anymore.
Perfect case of a guy who thought he knew everything and had to completely tear down his personal beliefs to build his team. Fact is, they have the most productive drafts over the last four years. Hard to imagine. And Jerry Jones wants to win. That's all I care about. For him it's Lombardi trophies, for me Stanley Cups.

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04-11-2010, 12:36 PM
  #70
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Perfect case of a guy who thought he knew everything and had to completely tear down his personal beliefs to build his team. Fact is, they have the most productive drafts over the last four years. Hard to imagine. And Jerry Jones wants to win. That's all I care about. For him it's Lombardi trophies, for me Stanley Cups.
Brian Burke loves the media but he pales in comparison to Jerry Freakin' Jones on the megalomaniac side of things. In Jerry Jones' mind, he is the Cowboys, and he shipped out TO because he got more press than JJ himself.

Tony Romo was an undrafted free agent. They have plenty of trades for wide receivers over the years, and multiple free agents. You truly don't seem to understand Jerry Jones at all. I'm a huge Cowboy fan and have been for years. Jerry Jones is an owner who insists on being the GM. Anybody else anywhere who does this? He had the best young coach who left because he couldn't work with the man.

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04-11-2010, 12:36 PM
  #71
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Really? How do you know?

Bryan Murray doesn't seem to be walking away here:
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source...JtL09sQY4vKxDg
And you think that was a great idea then? Trades would be made and trade talk over the air and every ones name out there that they were talking about. When were the particulars of any trade done over national television?

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04-11-2010, 12:38 PM
  #72
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Brian Burke loves the media but he pales in comparison to Jerry Freakin' Jones on the megalomaniac side of things. In Jerry Jones' mind, he is the Cowboys, and he shipped out TO because he got more press than JJ himself.
Hard to argue that he had a younger player that gave him the same production without hanging his team mates out to dry. Hard to argue with that move a year later. Who has picked up Owens yet? Good move, bad move?

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04-11-2010, 12:38 PM
  #73
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And you think that was a great idea then? Trades would be made and trade talk over the air and every ones name out there that they were talking about. When were the particulars of any trade done over national television?
You don't think Burke had the option of taking/turning off the mic? Do you think he was the only one who could negotiate on behalf of the Leafs? Use some common sense-there's a reason not everything the Leafs did that day was broadcast on TV.

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04-11-2010, 12:40 PM
  #74
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You don't think Burke had the option of taking/turning off the mic? Do you think he was the only one who could negotiate on behalf of the Leafs? Use some common sense-there's a reason not everything the Leafs did that day was broadcast on TV.
It doesn't matter-he looked like an idiot. I still remember Gainey taking one look at him and getting away as quick as he could. Do that stuff after you just won a Stanley Cup or two, not when you suck. You want to jump up and down do it after you just had your parade. Not when you finished 23rd in the league.

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04-11-2010, 12:42 PM
  #75
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It doesn't matter-he looked like an idiot. I still remember Gainey taking one look at him and getting away as quick as he could. Do that stuff after you just one a Stanley Cup or two, not when you suck. You want to jump up and down do it after you just had your parade. Not when you finished 23rd in the league.
I don't think Burke gives a **** if you think he looked stupid.

Sorry, this isn't all about not looking stupid to daveleaf. It does matter.

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