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Old
04-11-2010, 12:44 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
It doesn't matter-he looked like an idiot. I still remember Gainey taking one look at him and getting away as quick as he could. Do that stuff after you just won a Stanley Cup or two, not when you suck. You want to jump up and down do it after you just had your parade. Not when you finished 23rd in the league.
Burke did win a stanley cup. Maybe not two, but he won one.

Also, for every team that lucks out into Crosby, there's a few other teams that built through the draft and fell apart for one reason or another. Florida. Columbus. Minnesota. There's 3.

Side note, depending on how much credit you want to give Burke, 2 of the last 4 cup champs didn't do it because they drafted top 10 1st rounders.

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04-11-2010, 12:44 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by mikeo1 View Post
I don't think Burke gives a **** if you think he looked stupid. You look pretty stupid right now too.
Really. I think you drink from the same stupid juice that he does. Incapable at looking at the Leafs over the last 42 years and see he is making the same mistakes that they all have or maybe you are too young to do that.

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04-11-2010, 12:46 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by mlugia View Post
Burke did win a stanley cup. Maybe not two, but he won one.

Also, for every team that lucks out into Crosby, there's a few other teams that built through the draft and fell apart for one reason or another. Florida. Columbus. Minnesota. There's 3.
Teams that built through the draft. Islanders, Oilers, Flames, Pitt(Lemeiux years), Montreal(80's 90's cup built through the draft), Jersey, Red Wings, Pitt(Crosby). I believe Florida traded away everyone of significance because the players did not want to stay there or were unable to afford them. Islanders had Millbury-nothing else needs to be said.

How many cup winners have I listed through the draft in the last thirty years? List me yours built through FA and trades.
As well, His Stanley Cup team was predominately built through the draft.

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04-11-2010, 12:48 PM
  #79
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Crosby is a horrible example of building through the draft.

Red Wings built through the 3-7th round, picks that the Leafs still own.

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04-11-2010, 12:51 PM
  #80
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Really. I think you drink from the same stupid juice that he does. Incapable at looking at the Leafs over the last 42 years and see he is making the same mistakes that they all have or maybe you are too young to do that.
Maybe I'm just too stupid, but I think there's a difference between trading away your draft picks for aging veterans and trading away your draft picks for a star 21 year old sniper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
As well, His Stanley Cup team was predominately built through the draft.

No, it wasn't. Maybe you should try some of that stupid juice, it may help you out with your struggling memory.

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04-11-2010, 12:52 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by mlugia View Post
Crosby is a horrible example of building through the draft.

Red Wings built through the 3-7th round, picks that the Leafs still own.
But they built through the draft.

My point here is that he misunderstood the state of the franchise. He has traded away our most valuable assets to get us out of this mess. Detroit was loading up on talent when they still had Yzerman and company there. They were a cup team that was built through the draft and continued on.

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04-11-2010, 12:54 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlugia View Post
Crosby is a horrible example of building through the draft.

Red Wings built through the 3-7th round, picks that the Leafs still own.
And we have a decent track-record of NHL players drafted in such rounds.

Kaberle (8th round), Ponikarovsky (4th round), Wellwood (5th round), White (6th round), Mitchell (5th round), Stralman (7th round), Stalberg (6th round), Gunnarsson (7th round).

But I am hoping Burke manages to grab a 2nd round pick or two.

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04-11-2010, 12:54 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by mikeo1 View Post
Maybe I'm just too stupid, but I think there's a difference between trading away your draft picks for aging veterans and trading away your draft picks for a star 21 year old sniper.




No, it wasn't. Maybe you should try some of that stupid juice, it may help you out with your struggling memory.
Go on. List them all. Doesn't matter. Todays league you need to build through the draft.

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04-11-2010, 12:55 PM
  #84
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But he did it in NHL 10.



Not sure how often you've seen Hall. But it's funny how the bolded part can be said about him as well.
yeah but kessel has been in the league for 4 or 5 years now.

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04-11-2010, 12:55 PM
  #85
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Saying Crosby is an example of building through the draft is... Not logically sound. Not even a little bit. The leafs were in that lottery for Crosby that year, does that mean the Leafs built through the draft?

Correct, but once their 1st rounders moved on, they managed to carry on without them. I agree that Burke misjudged the talent level of the team pre-season, but I disagree that the way to recover is to blow it up and start over.

I think what we have here is a perfectly capable core.

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04-11-2010, 12:57 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by KapG View Post
yeah but kessel has been in the league for 4 or 5 years now.
Some players take longer to start dominating. Not to mention the kid's 22. Jordan Staal's been in the league for just as long, it doesn't mean Staal's reached a ceiling and will never improve above what he is doing now, which is a very very good 3rd liner.

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04-11-2010, 01:01 PM
  #87
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It doesn't matter to me. You guys think he has the plan, kudos to you. History tells me different and until I am proven wrong I will go with what has worked. Sure Pitt got lucky but so did Anaheim to get Perry. Fact is, you have to be there and still have your pic to make that move. Sure Kessel can score but he gave away too much for a guy with an incomplete game. He can score but nothing else.

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04-11-2010, 01:02 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
It doesn't matter to me. You guys think he has the plan, kudos to you. History tells me different and until I am proven wrong I will go with what has worked. Sure Pitt got lucky but so did Anaheim to get Perry. Fact is, you have to be there and still have your pic to make that move. Sure Kessel can score but he gave away too much for a guy with an incomplete game. He can score but nothing else.
You can believe whatever you want. Just don't spread lies and pass them off as fact.

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04-11-2010, 01:07 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
Go on. List them all. Doesn't matter. Todays league you need to build through the draft.
I don't know what you're asking here.

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04-11-2010, 01:41 PM
  #90
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I agree with you there. Burke didn't want to make an offer sheet since he had mud on his face from the Kevin Lowe/Dustin Penner situation. It's just this organization under values it's first round pic. What did we send over for Bell anyway? Was that a first pic too?

I think Phill is a good player but not a franchise player you find at the top of the board. This should have been easy. He should have played Pogge for the last fifteen games last year instead of putting Gerber in there. Should have finished near the top of the draft board. Should have tried to trade Toskola right at training camp since this was a rebuilding team and not a re-tool.

Hey guys. He called it wrong and he is getting paid to call it right. I don't think this team will be able to find the young franchise players to compete year after year. That is what he said....".....we want a team that can compete for championships every year.."...how do you do that if you trade you biggest chance at getting them?
Burke traded a bunch of scrubs, for that player back in January.

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04-11-2010, 01:45 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
Teams that built through the draft. Islanders, Oilers, Flames, Pitt(Lemeiux years), Montreal(80's 90's cup built through the draft), Jersey, Red Wings, Pitt(Crosby). I believe Florida traded away everyone of significance because the players did not want to stay there or were unable to afford them. Islanders had Millbury-nothing else needs to be said.

How many cup winners have I listed through the draft in the last thirty years? List me yours built through FA and trades.
As well, His Stanley Cup team was predominately built through the draft.
Man, you're a broken record.

Schenn, Kadri, Stalberg, Kulemin, Kaberle, Gunarrson.

Where did we get those guys?

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04-11-2010, 02:20 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by LeafErikson View Post
Man, you're a broken record.

Schenn, Kadri, Stalberg, Kulemin, Kaberle, Gunarrson.

Where did we get those guys?
All good players, but do you see this group of players forming a winning core? Do we have any other players of this calibre even in our junior/farm system?

Best case scenario I think we turn into a team like Buffalo with no real superstars, but a solid team system and an excellent goalie.

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04-11-2010, 02:22 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
No. You're right and I was wrong with the dates. Who? Someone who believes you build through the draft and is willing to wait on it. Sure, there will be some misses but from my recollection who has built a stanley cup winner through FA and trading? Many teams added pieces but the core was through the draft. I want someone who is younger and wants this gig bad, wants to retire as a Leaf GM and has aspirations of bringing many stanley cups to toronto. Burke has shown he will not stay anywhere long. Do you see him fulfilling his contract here?
so if you can't bother to research simple stuff...how do you propose to be taken seriously...seriously????

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04-11-2010, 02:27 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by mlugia View Post
You can believe whatever you want. Just don't spread lies and pass them off as fact.
There lies now? Really? You guys believe whatever comes out of his mouth, changes his view constantly and that is fine. I have seen this story play out so many times and the ending is the same. I have seen and heard way back when......they needed a puck moving d-man. Traded for Tom Kurvers....they needed that pucking moving d-men to help there young team grow....that pick ended up being Scott Neidermayer, who helped NJ and Ana to some cups...apparently one of the best leaders of our generation. What about trading Kenny Jonsson and Roberto Luongo.

Yep. I am a broken record because it is the same old same old. Trade all your top pics for that one player that will make it all better, put you over the top. I have seen it all before.

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04-11-2010, 02:31 PM
  #95
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Burke and Gusty went through a lot of hardship this year, and with crisis comes victory.

I don't think I'm being bold by saying that next year should be better. Not hard to do better than 29th, but we will do better. Komisarek will be back, Gusty will be healthy and Burke will have time to mourn his son.

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04-11-2010, 02:34 PM
  #96
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so if you can't bother to research simple stuff...how do you propose to be taken seriously...seriously????
So what the date is wrong? I have heard this crap for years. The name and the dates change and the outcome is the same. I have been listening to Brian Burke in the front page news for years now. He has been here for a short time and it feels like forever.

Go back and start listing all the players and pics this team/franchise has traded maybe that would scare you a little. I have heard this all before, the years change, the names change. We needed a puck moving d-man so we traded for Tom Kurvers, apparently we were not supposed to finish that poorly that year. I'm sure NJ is thankful for it.

The dates, it's all the same. We have undervalued our draft pics year in and year out and these players have had wonderful careers on other teams and yet I am the only one who sees it? Yet it good to trade to 1st's and a second for a young sniper. I believe the same thinking went behind Tom Kurvers. Where did that get us.

I mean if you want to spend five years accumulating some good talent and in the end ship a few players out to get those final pieces to get you over the top is great. Trading Dick Duff was tough, he ended up having a great career after but it got Toronto another cup. We add some college free agents and all of a sudden the cupboard is full so we unload our top pics?

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04-11-2010, 02:34 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by s h a n Y e View Post
Burke and Gusty went through a lot of hardship this year, and with crisis comes victory.

I don't think I'm being bold by saying that next year should be better. Not hard to do better than 29th, but we will do better. Komisarek will be back, Gusty will be healthy and Burke will have time to mourn his son.
I hope you're right because I am sick and tired of this.

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04-11-2010, 02:36 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
There lies now? Really? You guys believe whatever comes out of his mouth, changes his view constantly and that is fine. I have seen this story play out so many times and the ending is the same. I have seen and heard way back when......they needed a puck moving d-man. Traded for Tom Kurvers....they needed that pucking moving d-men to help there young team grow....that pick ended up being Scott Neidermayer, who helped NJ and Ana to some cups...apparently one of the best leaders of our generation. What about trading Kenny Jonsson and Roberto Luongo.

Yep. I am a broken record because it is the same old same old. Trade all your top pics for that one player that will make it all better, put you over the top. I have seen it all before.
In the end, I don't give 2 ***** about who the players are, who the GM is or who the coach is, what I want is a winner. I don't care if he lies, or exagerates, or is the king of freakin' Ireland. I look at what Burke has done to the roster, and I'm happy with the direction. We've moved mediocre players for youth. We have moved out aged veterans and added young players. We've stayed away from 35+ free agents and signed guys in their 20's. We traded some draft picks and got a good young sniper, not Mathieu Schneider, or Tom Kurvers. Burke didn't try to fix it all in 1 off season, he fixed parts last off season, and other parts in season, and added some real elite talent. We haven't had this kind of elite talent in years (and that includes Courtnall, or Clarke). We have more elite talent than we have had since the 70's.

So please, keep telling us you have seen it all before, but we have not seen this type of detail, this type of plan from a manage,ment team in years. We went through rookie GM's who didn't know talent at all. Gord Stellicks and JFJ and so on and so on. Who was the last Leaf GM who had won a cup in the recent past?

I'm happy with how the team is shaping up, and it's not because I buy Burke's KoolAid. I watch the product on the ice. I evaluate for myself, and I feel cautiously positive, while you have us defeated already.

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04-11-2010, 02:40 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
There lies now? Really? You guys believe whatever comes out of his mouth, changes his view constantly and that is fine. I have seen this story play out so many times and the ending is the same. I have seen and heard way back when......they needed a puck moving d-man. Traded for Tom Kurvers....they needed that pucking moving d-men to help there young team grow....that pick ended up being Scott Neidermayer, who helped NJ and Ana to some cups...apparently one of the best leaders of our generation. What about trading Kenny Jonsson and Roberto Luongo.

Yep. I am a broken record because it is the same old same old. Trade all your top pics for that one player that will make it all better, put you over the top. I have seen it all before.
Burke made a bold move for Kessel, there's no doubt there. But you're off by suggesting this management group is ignoring the draft. Picks have been made, and I'd say some of them are pretty damn good pick (Kadri, Didomenico, Blacker, D'Amigo etc.).

You're suggesting the Leafs are ignoring the draft. I'm suggesting you're way too caught up in top five pick syndrome.

Where has selecting in the top five gotten Florida, Nashville, Columbus, Atlanta?

It's not picking in the top five that builds winners. It's good scouting, and making the right picks. That's why people do draft re do's. Because hindsight is, well you know.

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04-11-2010, 02:42 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by mlugia View Post
Crosby is a horrible example of building through the draft.

Red Wings built through the 3-7th round, picks that the Leafs still own.
Exactly. I've been saying that all along. The media and certain people think that if it's not the first round pick, anything else is useless. How many first round draft picks [top ten] are on the Red Wings [picked by the] organsation? How many top ten Red Wings picks {or even any} were involved in their latest cup win?

Something that has plagued the Leafs forever; and started getting righted with JFJ's tenure, and now with Burke is the depth of their scouting team.

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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
But they built through the draft.

My point here is that he misunderstood the state of the franchise. He has traded away our most valuable assets to get us out of this mess. Detroit was loading up on talent when they still had Yzerman and company there. They were a cup team that was built through the draft and continued on.
Are you unaware that the 3-7th + rounds of the draft, are still, part of the draft? Like, I keep seeing you saying, "The teams were built through the draft." But then....

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Originally Posted by LeafErikson View Post
Man, you're a broken record.

Schenn, [high] Kadri,[high] Stalberg, [low] Kulemin,[low] Kaberle,[low] Gunarrson.[low]

Where did we get those guys?
last I figured those lot were from the draft.

And you simply can not discount the fact that in the NCAA there are a plethora of "wallets" to find. [hee]. Maybe not everyone will be a Bozak, however, with Stalberg, Bozak, Hanson & Irwin here, they can attract a lot more NCAA people here. Just because they chose an alternative route to get to the NHL, doesn't mean that they are all rubbish either.

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