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04-11-2010, 02:43 PM
  #101
daveleaf
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Originally Posted by nomorewhining View Post
In the end, I don't give 2 ***** about who the players are, who the GM is or who the coach is, what I want is a winner. I don't care if he lies, or exagerates, or is the king of freakin' Ireland. I look at what Burke has done to the roster, and I'm happy with the direction. We've moved mediocre players for youth. We have moved out aged veterans and added young players. We've stayed away from 35+ free agents and signed guys in their 20's. We traded some draft picks and got a good young sniper, not Mathieu Schneider, or Tom Kurvers. Burke didn't try to fix it all in 1 off season, he fixed parts last off season, and other parts in season, and added some real elite talent. We haven't had this kind of elite talent in years (and that includes Courtnall, or Clarke). We have more elite talent than we have had since the 70's.

So please, keep telling us you have seen it all before, but we have not seen this type of detail, this type of plan from a manage,ment team in years. We went through rookie GM's who didn't know talent at all. Gord Stellicks and JFJ and so on and so on. Who was the last Leaf GM who had won a cup in the recent past?

I'm happy with how the team is shaping up, and it's not because I buy Burke's KoolAid. I watch the product on the ice. I evaluate for myself, and I feel cautiously positive, while you have us defeated already.
I hope you are right but history tells me otherwise. I disagree this is the most elite talent we have had since to 70's-that is so untrue. Our talent level is average at best. We have some nice pieces but not the depth and quality we should have. I hope he does this soon because he doesn't seem to last in one place too long.

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04-11-2010, 02:43 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by nomorewhining View Post
In the end, I don't give 2 ***** about who the players are, who the GM is or who the coach is, what I want is a winner. I don't care if he lies, or exagerates, or is the king of freakin' Ireland. I look at what Burke has done to the roster, and I'm happy with the direction. We've moved mediocre players for youth. We have moved out aged veterans and added young players. We've stayed away from 35+ free agents and signed guys in their 20's. We traded some draft picks and got a good young sniper, not Mathieu Schneider, or Tom Kurvers. Burke didn't try to fix it all in 1 off season, he fixed parts last off season, and other parts in season, and added some real elite talent. We haven't had this kind of elite talent in years (and that includes Courtnall, or Clarke). We have more elite talent than we have had since the 70's.

So please, keep telling us you have seen it all before, but we have not seen this type of detail, this type of plan from a manage,ment team in years. We went through rookie GM's who didn't know talent at all. Gord Stellicks and JFJ and so on and so on. Who was the last Leaf GM who had won a cup in the recent past?

I'm happy with how the team is shaping up, and it's not because I buy Burke's KoolAid. I watch the product on the ice. I evaluate for myself, and I feel cautiously positive, while you have us defeated already.
I agree cautious optimism is probably the best mindset to have right now, but what the heck constitutes an "elite" talent level? I'd consider elite guys to be the uppermost echelon of players. I don't think we have one player who anyone outside of this fanbase would consider elite. I think we have some good players, but none of them have clearly separated themselves from their peers around the league.

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04-11-2010, 02:43 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by hockeystick89 View Post
All good players, but do you see this group of players forming a winning core? Do we have any other players of this calibre even in our junior/farm system?

Best case scenario I think we turn into a team like Buffalo with no real superstars, but a solid team system and an excellent goalie.
They all have good potential. Gunnarson looks like a very solid 2nd pairing defender. Kulemin looks like a two way, top six winger. And Stalberg looks like a top six forward, capable of 20-30 goals, with mind blowing speed.

The point being, this team does not ignore the draft. The draft has been a very important piece of this team for some time now. And this whole "we gotta draft in the top five" crap is so overblown.

Good players to be had in all rounds. You just need the scouts to find them. I think we have excellent scouting, that will only continue to do great work for us.

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04-11-2010, 02:44 PM
  #104
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Fact is they, management, saw how there goalie got lit up last game of pre-season and from there own admission thought they had to look at their goalie situation and yet still went ahead and made THE trade. You guys make Burke out to be the next coming of christ. For the great move of bring in Dion still remains the monumental mistake of trading away the future again. They dolled out millions on the blue line and had horrendous play from the back end. One right doesn't hide two wrongs. Sure, all you guys will start bring up the college free agents and what a glorious find they are. Hanson only showed up last game of the year. Bozak is a nice surprise but when I sit here and ask myself can I see the combination of Bozak-Kulemin and Kessel and can they hold up through an 82 game schedule and can they in a seven game series beat Pitt, Wash, Car, T-bay, Phy and the answer is no but Bozak will be a decent addition-jury is still out on Hanson. This team has so far to go. This year will mark the fifth year missing the playoffs, third in Burkes tenure but this at the time was a re-tool and not a rebuild. He misunderstood the horrendous shape of this franchise and instead of coming out and saying this team sucked, has no real prospect depth and we are going to build through the draft and this might take five years. He lied to the fans, said they were a playoff bound team this year. Under his own admission, said he was unprepared to trade Thomas Kaberle at last years draft even though that was his most valuable commodity and trading chip. In the last few years I see mistake after mistake, misunderstanding the state of the team sprinkled in with some good moves and a team tight to the cap. Yet I hear that this was not his doing. Was it not his doing to make sure Komisarek was actually healthy before signing him? He didn't want to over-pay Cammileri but it was ok to over-pay for Phil Kessel? For all the right it is hard to look past all the wrong. It is hard to look past other organizations finishing near the bottom and building with potential future stars yet we are devoid of having that luxury. I get sick and tired of hearing we will make the playoffs soon-to hell with the playoffs-you play to win championships and only one team can win every year but do you see the pieces here to compete in future years.

I see you guys believing but this team has far to go. I would not be surprised if the playoff drought goes into 8 and 9 years. Many of the teams in the Eastern Conference already have the pieces in place to compete for championships, where is Toronto's?

I hope you guys are right but history tells me that we are headed down the same path again and we still have a hard lesson to learn. Great organizations are built through the draft, they focus on young talent and add them.
Top end talent is found at the top of the draft board, college free agents are nice additions but never to be confused with top end talent. We have consistently traded away our future and this is no more evident than now. Sure you guys will argue that you just don't know what you will get and for the most part you are right but the last six or seven years we are seeing teams doing much better at evaluating talent. I look at Boston, they will have our franchise goalie, probably franchise player in Hall or Seguin and a nice future addition of a high second round pic and a top pic net year. Again. Toronto has always under valued their own draft pics-we are the developmental team for the league and that has not changed.

When will this franchise learn to fix all the problems of the past they need to take two steps back, completely blow it up and begin with new. We will not make the playoffs for atleast 8 years, in that time frame we could have emerged with a strong franchise with franchise players yet we are stuck continually trying to cover yesterdays mistake with today band aid. This is Leaf land, never has changed in 42 years and never will. I read an interesting post from a Flyer fan and his comment was they flyers would trade their 2nd round pic from 2010-2017 for no particular reason and for nothing of value in return. Are we any different, instead we trade away first round talent. I love the Leafs but I look at this objectively and history tells me nothing has changed.
You don't HAVE TO build your team through high draft picks. Look at the Detroit Red wings, their entire dynasty was built through great scouting and late round picks, coupled with smart veteran signings. I actually think the Leafs' scouts are great at late round picks, look at the 2006 picks after round 1:
Round 2: Kulemin
4: Reimer
4: Holzer
6: Stalberg

2007:
Round 5: Mikus
Round 6: Didomenico
Round 7: Gunnarson


The bolded ones are already part of the current organization, and I think the rest all have a shot at the NHL as regulars and important pieces.
Its still too early to look at 2008 and 2009 late rounders, but the point is that yea sure, Tyler Seguin would have been nice for this team's future, but who's to say he will be anywhere nearly as good as Phil Kessel. Keep in mind Phil is like a drat pick, he is only 22 years old, most prospects are just getting their first shot at that age, and most don't even make as large of an impact at that age. You don't have to build through high lottery picks, with smart signings and good late round selections, you can still get a good team built.

And Defense wins Championships... building form the net out is the proper path to take.

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04-11-2010, 02:45 PM
  #105
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So what the date is wrong? I have heard this crap for years. The name and the dates change and the outcome is the same. I have been listening to Brian Burke in the front page news for years now. He has been here for a short time and it feels like forever.

Go back and start listing all the players and pics this team/franchise has traded maybe that would scare you a little. I have heard this all before, the years change, the names change. We needed a puck moving d-man so we traded for Tom Kurvers, apparently we were not supposed to finish that poorly that year. I'm sure NJ is thankful for it.

The dates, it's all the same. We have undervalued our draft pics year in and year out and these players have had wonderful careers on other teams and yet I am the only one who sees it? Yet it good to trade to 1st's and a second for a young sniper. I believe the same thinking went behind Tom Kurvers. Where did that get us.

I mean if you want to spend five years accumulating some good talent and in the end ship a few players out to get those final pieces to get you over the top is great. Trading Dick Duff was tough, he ended up having a great career after but it got Toronto another cup. We add some college free agents and all of a sudden the cupboard is full so we unload our top pics?
if yer gonna go that far back, I'll bet you wet the bed when Clarke was traded for Sundin...huh????....as for the Kessel deal...I'll take a bird in the hand anyday...but some folks will disagree...

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04-11-2010, 02:45 PM
  #106
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Trading two firsts means you're not rebuilding through the draft, even if most of your assets are draft picks from within the last five years.

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04-11-2010, 02:46 PM
  #107
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Trading two firsts means you're not rebuilding through the draft, even if most of your assets are draft picks from within the last five years.
I'm sorry pal, but that's retarded.

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04-11-2010, 02:46 PM
  #108
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All good players, but do you see this group of players forming a winning core? Do we have any other players of this calibre even in our junior/farm system?

Best case scenario I think we turn into a team like Buffalo with no real superstars, but a solid team system and an excellent goalie.
I agree.

All those players. Correct me if I am wrong because I seem to be forgetting things. But only one player a Burke draft pic. I forget who drafted Gunnerson but my point being you don't find those guys if you keep on trading away the top end of the board. It is your best chance to hit a home run with a player.

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04-11-2010, 02:54 PM
  #109
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if yer gonna go that far back, I'll bet you wet the bed when Clarke was traded for Sundin...huh????....as for the Kessel deal...I'll take a bird in the hand anyday...but some folks will disagree...
Hey guy. I have to go back that far, I have watched this so many times. When Clark was traded I was the first to admit I was not happy but understood the move. That team just went through three long playoff runs and couldn't get over the top and Cliff was worried the group was getting old. We all saw the writing on the wall. Clark was a great Leaf. Was an awesome player in playoff games. I hated loosing him but I knew that time had come. Sundin was a great player but still not the guy to get TO over the top. Take Sundin and add Glimour mentality and maybe.

What else do we have to look back on? Dude. This is 43 years now. I have seen this play happen time and time again. Montreal won four cups taking LA's pick and turning into Guy Lafleur, Jersey took ours and won 3 with Niedermayer. You loose out on a chance to get that special player by doing that. These guys are born with it, they are not taught it. I like Phill Kessel, I really do but not for that much. I don't see him fighting through all kinds of checkers to get that goal in the playoffs. Nice player to get you there but not THE guy. Do you remember Glenn Anderson? I never had a real appreciation for that guy until he came to TO but he played bigger the game got. Absolutely on a different level in over time. I just don't see Phill being that guy and again, I hope I am wrong.

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04-11-2010, 03:01 PM
  #110
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Hey guy. I have to go back that far, I have watched this so many times. When Clark was traded I was the first to admit I was not happy but understood the move. That team just went through three long playoff runs and couldn't get over the top and Cliff was worried the group was getting old. We all saw the writing on the wall. Clark was a great Leaf. Was an awesome player in playoff games. I hated loosing him but I knew that time had come. Sundin was a great player but still not the guy to get TO over the top. Take Sundin and add Glimour mentality and maybe.

What else do we have to look back on? Dude. This is 43 years now. I have seen this play happen time and time again. Montreal won four cups taking LA's pick and turning into Guy Lafleur, Jersey took ours and won 3 with Niedermayer. You loose out on a chance to get that special player by doing that. These guys are born with it, they are not taught it. I like Phill Kessel, I really do but not for that much. I don't see him fighting through all kinds of checkers to get that goal in the playoffs. Nice player to get you there but not THE guy. Do you remember Glenn Anderson? I never had a real appreciation for that guy until he came to TO but he played bigger the game got. Absolutely on a different level in over time. I just don't see Phill being that guy and again, I hope I am wrong.
Then you would really hate Taylor Hall.
If you watched the WJC, he was invisible when not scoring goals, and was shut down by opposition in big games, especially the gold medal game. I also noticed he's a terrible teammate, plays all by himself and gets tunnel vision when he has the puck by trying to go through the entire team and score by himself only to give it away.
The kid has crazy talent, but I think he will be Kessel 2.0 in the NHL, if that.

And you're talking about guys who want to fight for the puck and have the desire to win... those are the guys Burke is going after and drafting, and they don't necessarily have to be aquired high in the draft.

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04-11-2010, 03:03 PM
  #111
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I agree.

All those players. Correct me if I am wrong because I seem to be forgetting things. But only one player a Burke draft pic. I forget who drafted Gunnerson but my point being you don't find those guys if you keep on trading away the top end of the board. It is your best chance to hit a home run with a player.
Same scouting staff in place though. Burke should be given credit for recognizing the staff that was in place, was actually doing a good job finding picks in the later rounds.

I don't disagree that we need first round picks. Yes, the success should be better in those rounds (that's why those players are ranked that high). But don't write off the later rounds us being less important. Plenty of good/great players found after the 1st round.

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04-11-2010, 03:03 PM
  #112
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I hope you are right but history tells me otherwise. I disagree this is the most elite talent we have had since to 70's-that is so untrue. Our talent level is average at best. We have some nice pieces but not the depth and quality we should have. I hope he does this soon because he doesn't seem to last in one place too long.
Elite talent is a subjective word, and maybe I'm overstated, but, what I'm refering to is, a top 10 scorer in Kessel at 22. A Norris candidate in Phaneuf at 25. Bozak showing, had he been drafted at 18, he'd be amongst the leading scorers in his draft class. Kulemin showing he is a strong all round player. I have high hopes for Kadri. Schenn is 20 years old and has had a really nice start. Gunnarson at 23 is awesome for a rookie defenceman, that very few had ever heard of. Gustavson has potential. Komi is only 28, and could be a great pick-up for several years. I understand they don't have much depth, but 2 years ago, they didn't even have young talent, and sometimes I wonder if we even had talent.

The Leafs have a long way to go, but they have a good start, and really there's at least 20 other teams who also have a long way to go, as 10 teams at most are considered true cup contenders. But why be so depressed about it! We are going in the right direction.

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04-11-2010, 03:06 PM
  #113
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That team just went through three long playoff runs and couldn't get over the top and Cliff was worried the group was getting old. We all saw the writing on the wall. Clark was a great Leaf. Was an awesome player in playoff games. I hated loosing him but I knew that time had come.
Wendle Clarke was 27 when he was traded out of Toronto. Hardly an old man.

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04-11-2010, 03:07 PM
  #114
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Elite talent is a subjective word, and maybe I'm overstated, but, what I'm refering to is, a top 10 scorer in Kessel at 22. A Norris candidate in Phaneuf at 25. Bozak showing, had he been drafted at 18, he'd be amongst the leading scorers in his draft class. Kulemin showing he is a strong all round player. I have high hopes for Kadri. Schenn is 20 years old and has had a really nice start. Gunnarson at 23 is awesome for a rookie defenceman, that very few had ever heard of. Gustavson has potential. Komi is only 28, and could be a great pick-up for several years. I understand they don't have much depth, but 2 years ago, they didn't even have young talent, and sometimes I wonder if we even had talent.

The Leafs have a long way to go, but they have a good start, and really there's at least 20 other teams who also have a long way to go, as 10 teams at most are considered true cup contenders. But why be so depressed about it! We are going in the right direction.
I like Phaneuf. I have said they have some nice pieces there but they snookered themselves for keep on trading away the top of their board.

And I am depressed. Enough is enough. We should hold these guys accountable. Time for a cup, to hell with playoff talk, build a contender.

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04-11-2010, 03:10 PM
  #115
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Then you would really hate Taylor Hall.
If you watched the WJC, he was invisible when not scoring goals, and was shut down by opposition in big games, especially the gold medal game. I also noticed he's a terrible teammate, plays all by himself and gets tunnel vision when he has the puck by trying to go through the entire team and score by himself only to give it away.
The kid has crazy talent, but I think he will be Kessel 2.0 in the NHL, if that.

And you're talking about guys who want to fight for the puck and have the desire to win... those are the guys Burke is going after and drafting, and they don't necessarily have to be aquired high in the draft.
Okay I hear ya. Maybe he's a head case, I don't know but if you still had the top pic and you don't like him you can always draft Seguin, maybe if you pick second someone else already made that decision for you. Or maybe slide in the draft a spot or two and pic up other assets/pics and still have a great player. Just seems like over the last while there are some very productive players at the top of the board.

I hate...I hate that our top pics go on to have very productive years with other teams and we are the ones with nothing.

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04-11-2010, 03:11 PM
  #116
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First and foremost, I want to say that I am not a blinded fanboy. I will give credit where credit is due, and I will point out where I feel this organization has made a blatant mistake.

As for trading two 1st rounders and a 2nd for Kessel, I believe that it was a gamble based on the fact that Brian Burke believed this team would be better than their 29th place finish shows. I think everyone did. I think that hindsight is always 20/20 and to be honest, I appreciate the fact that Burke believed in his team so much that he was willing to trade those picks.

Do I think Hall is going to be a better player than Kessel? Yeah, I think so.

Do I think Seguin is going to be a better player than Kessel? Perhaps, he might be.

Do I blame Brian Burke for trading the two firsts and a second for Phil Kessel, based on the fact he felt his team was good enough for him to not make that decision? No, I don't.

It happened. We got a good player out of it, and while perhaps we could have gotten a better one, we can't take it back now.

We've got a group of young kids who have begun to prove they are NHL players. Brian Burke is certainly not done. There will be more changes and we're moving in the right direction, so I don't believe we're going to be making changes for the worse.

And you know what? If we had not traded for Kessel, finished in the middle of the pack (which was just as much a possibility), and were setting our sights on Jeffrey Skinner with our #15 pick, we'd all be sitting here saying "Ain't it too bad we never traded for Phil Kessel?"

We all need to take a deep breath and get over it.

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04-11-2010, 03:12 PM
  #117
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I'm sorry pal, but that's retarded.
Thanks, I'm glad we agree.

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04-11-2010, 03:12 PM
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I like Phaneuf. I have said they have some nice pieces there but they snookered themselves for keep on trading away the top of their board.

And I am depressed. Enough is enough. We should hold these guys accountable. Time for a cup, to hell with playoff talk, build a contender.
For a guy that complains about this team not building with players picked at the top end of the draft, you sure seem to be ignoring the fact we have Kessel (5th overall), Phaneuf (9th overall), Schenn (5th overall), and coming soon Nazem Kadri (7th overall). Sure, we didn't select two of those guys, but who cares?

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04-11-2010, 03:12 PM
  #119
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Wendle Clarke was 27 when he was traded out of Toronto. Hardly an old man.
No. But even Wendel himself admitted to have a thirty something year old body at that point. Back problems a few knee injuries. I believe he said in the last cup run he needed six hours with the trainer just to get ready to play. I loved that guy but his body gave up long before he did.

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04-11-2010, 03:13 PM
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Thanks, I'm glad we agree.
I see what you did there.

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04-11-2010, 03:15 PM
  #121
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For a guy that complains about this team not building with players picked at the top end of the draft, you sure seem to be ignoring the fact we have Kessel (5th overall), Phaneuf (9th overall), Schenn (5th overall), and coming soon Nazem Kadri (7th overall). Sure, we didn't select two of those guys, but who cares?
Why do you ignore Komi and Sjostrom?

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04-11-2010, 03:16 PM
  #122
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I agree.

All those players. Correct me if I am wrong because I seem to be forgetting things. But only one player a Burke draft pic. I forget who drafted Gunnerson but my point being you don't find those guys if you keep on trading away the top end of the board. It is your best chance to hit a home run with a player.
WTF? how is drafting an unproven player more of a home run than trading for someone that can put up 30+ goals at 22?

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04-11-2010, 03:16 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by LeafErikson View Post
For a guy that complains about this team not building with players picked at the top end of the draft, you sure seem to be ignoring the fact we have Kessel (5th overall), Phaneuf (9th overall), Schenn (5th overall), and coming soon Nazem Kadri (7th overall). Sure, we didn't select two of those guys, but who cares?
But Kessel cost you 2nd over all this year and 32nd over all. Is that right? Being 29th, would that be there pic in the second round 32nd over all? And a first next year, potentially a top ten pic. We just lost our chance at an elite level talent.

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04-11-2010, 03:17 PM
  #124
hockeystick89
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
I like Phaneuf. I have said they have some nice pieces there but they snookered themselves for keep on trading away the top of their board.

And I am depressed. Enough is enough. We should hold these guys accountable. Time for a cup, to hell with playoff talk, build a contender.
Sucks too because even if someone considers Kessel and Seguin a wash in the long run(which it may or may not be), there is still a really high second plus a likely high first next year. If that first next year is in the same league as Schenn or Kadri, then I'd say we definitely lose out here. That could be another outstanding piece, and that's the only reason I don't like the Kessel trade anymore. We've traded what will likely be 2 blue chippers(maybe 3) for one more proven one. For a team that is lacking in top end talent, I think this is a big mistake.

Alas, the moves are already made and there's no point in dwelling on the past.

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04-11-2010, 03:17 PM
  #125
daveleaf
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
WTF? how is drafting an unproven player more of a home run than trading for someone that can put up 30+ goals at 22?
I think one of the posters listed on one of the earlier pages the top two pics over the last ten years. Some pretty shocking names pop up there. I don't mind Kessel but not at that price.

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