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Old
04-11-2010, 07:51 AM
  #1
Hank Scorpio
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Hey everybody,

I wanted to extend an annual tradition of mine to posters of this board to get a little more out of a debate a friend of mine and I usually have as this year I'm in Australia and he is in France making it difficult to argue over beers about this. I figure presenting it to all of you might be fun and insightful.

The game revolves around a central question that is applied to each player: did we get our money's worth in terms of how the player performed? There are a couple things my friend and I keep in mind while debating this. The first is we look at the players cap hit and not their actually salary. Also injuries cannot be looked upon as not getting the full value where as suspensions can. The reason for that is because injuries are usually not something the player is in control of and likely means right away we did not get full value for the player where as a suspension is usually something the player is in control of and despite often forfeiting their salary for the duration of the suspension the cap hit remains the same. Lastly, we are looking at the player based on his cap hit and not necessarily based on his performance the previous season. If the player performed well enough to receive a raise then did not live up to potential that is a different story but for those who did not, are they playing at value to their cap hit?

Here's my two cents:

Gomez (7.35): Performed much better then I expected this season. Coming into this team I had him pegged as a play maker with a defensive upside but it is the complete opposite, he's a defensive forward with and offensive, play making upside. Unfortunately, by no faulty of his own, it is very difficult for him to perform up to his lofty salary so in that regard he did not perform to value. That being said he is a vital part of this team and has been a huge asset to us. On a note about Gomez, this is not meant to take a shot at the guy, he has been beyond my expectations this year and a great addition it's just very difficult for him to perform up to numbers.

Cammalleri (6): Very dynamic goal scorer who lived up to his reputation. I have his play on par with his salary but I'd be interested to get a better idea of how he is in the dressing room. Though he is not a defensive forward by any stretch of the imagination his game in his own end has improved through the season in my opinion which may set him beyond his salary next season.

Gionta (5): Exceeded his cap hit, no question. The man is the little engine that could except he's done thinking, he knows he can then does it. A huge reason in my opinion why Gomez was so successful.

A. Kostitsyn (3.25): One could argue he's at his salary I suppose but his generally uninspired play this season makes it so he does not equate to his cap hit. It's like if he's not scoring he doesn't want to be there. When he is scoring he's great but his streaks have been few and far between.

Moen (1.5): I'm saying we got him at value but being depended upon for being the guy who's supposed to be physical all the time has definitely taken it's toll. I was reading another poster on another thread talk about the difference between him here and in Anaheim, remember the difference between him at the start of the season and now? The man has earned his keep and is close to exceeding value but that is because we depend on him to be a physical dynamo every game and I'm not sure if he can do it alone.

Laraque (1.5): ...

Metropolit (1): Far exceeded his salary. Great season, hopefully he'll be back for some playoff games, he deserves it.

Lapierre (.66): Not really. After the Olympic break yes but he did nothing up until that point and a few games after. He was a waste of a roster space for most of the season.

S. Kostitsyn (.592): This guys had one hell of a season and not in a good way. He's earned his keep in my opinion and would've went beyond that if he wasn't held back.

Pouliot (.583): Beyond that of his salary. Sure, he's in a slump now but it was bound to happen.

Pyatt (.427): Also beyond his salary but may largely in part be due to his situation. As it has been well documented, if Sergei's in the dog house this guy's got the spot at the end of the masters bed and all he had to do is be obedient and not bark so much. Still, a pleasant surprise this season.

Moore (.342): Still not sure if he was worth the pick but definitely his cap hit and beyond. He looks even better with Metro out and performs well at both ends of the ice. If we resign him I wonder at how much.

Darche (.258): He's played well but I really can't pass a verdict on this guy. As someone who was suspected to stay in the AHL this season he's been a nice surprise but he's a little reminiscent of Pacioretty or D'agostini's first call up for my opinion. I'm really not sure what to make of him.

Markov (5.75): Kind of goes without saying...

Hamrlik (5.5): Not quite but was key to what success we had at the beginning of the season. He's gotten caught from time to time and took was not as offensive as I would've liked him to be this season but a solid season none the less, just not 5.5mil solid.

Spacek (3.8): I'm a little unsure about him too. I don't think he did what he was paid to do in terms of offense but his defensive play helped is stay in the thick of things in the East until Markov got back. He didn't play horribly this season but is definitely not worth his cap hit.

Gill (2.25): If there was some way to make him come onto the ice already around the goalies crease and leave when the puck is out of the zone we'd be getting full value but there are so many areas of his game that are lacking it's ridiculous. He's sort of the Anti-Bergeron except neither of them move their feet.

Mara (1.675): Who?

Gorges (1.1): Not only did he exceed it but I feel as though every player on this team should donate a percentage of their salary to this guy. He's everything Rivet was and more.

O'Byrne (.942): At value and rising, this guy keeps getting better.

Bergeron (.732): On the grand scheme of things not really, he seems like a waste of a roster spot most of the time but as soon as he shoots that puck you remember why you're paying him. Too one dimensional to reach his value even at almost minimum. See Gill.

Price (2.2): If it wasn't for that whole not winning thing he'd probably be more then his value but on the bench he definitely is not. He's going to be an amazing goal tender one day and many people look at him and say his bit off more then he can chew but I'm beginning to think it's us force feeding him.

Halak (.775): Definitely exceeded his salary but he's started to look human again. Now by that I mean over the past three games, particularly this one but how he handles the play off load should be very telling of our off season decisions. Will also likely be a very good goalie in the very near future but I can't help but wonder if the guy is getting tired (not that he shouldn't be, he's had a pretty busy 2010 thus far).

Thoughts?

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Old
04-11-2010, 08:40 AM
  #2
macavoy
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Originally Posted by Hank Scorpio View Post
Thoughts?
Too heavy of a conversation for a Sunday morning after Habs clinching a playoff spot. Brain is foggy but happy!

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Old
04-11-2010, 08:55 AM
  #3
Max Levine
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Too heavy of a conversation for a Sunday morning after Habs clinching a playoff spot. Brain is foggy but happy!
LOL Macavoy, I thought the same thing when reading Hank's post. I'm only up to my first cup of coffee, I need a few more. Happy Habs made it and can't wait for the playoffs to start.

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Old
04-11-2010, 01:36 PM
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Darz
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First off.....you forgot Plekanec, but I can guess that EVERYONE would agree he exceeded his salary.

Well here is my take:

Gomez (7.35):
Had games that showed me that he could be actually worth that contract (last night versus the Leafs for example), but not nearly enough offence from him to justify this cap hit. Great special team guy, who does do alot of little things well, but for this money, you need a point a game minimum.

Cammalleri (6):
Before his injury, he exceeded, after coming back from injury, he fell short. Overall, I guess I would say he is at his salary. I think after everything is said and done, looking back, his contract will be seen as a positive. Should be able to score 30-35 goals a year, if healthy, no problem the next 4 years.

Gionta (5):
Exceeded his cap hit, I highly doubt anyone will argue that. Lead the team in goals, and in hustle. Can play in any situation, and doesn't seem to take games, or shifts for that matter, off. I am definatly on board as far as naming him the next captain of the habs.

A. Kostitsyn (3.25):
The guy that washes the players jerseys must love AK, because he probably doesn't have to wash his jersey too often. The guy doesn't work hard enough to justify his cap hit, and didn't pot enough goals to excuse his poor work attitute. I'm not ready to give up on him yet, as the skill set is still there, but if he was a UFA this offseason, I think chances would be he would be taking a pay cut instead of a pay raise. Maybe next year, in a contract year, he will bring it 100%.

Plekanec (2.75)
Considering that there were alot of people complaining that he got too much money before the season started, he easily surpassed his salary by the new year. Still question weather he is a very good 60 point a year guy, or a 70-80 point guy. I really hope in a years time, I can still say he is worth what we are paying him. Worried I won't be able to.

Moen (1.5):
Can't say he didn't live up to his cap hit, but early in the year he looked like he was going to be one of our best bargains. Still say he exceed his cap hit, and more than likely will every year over the course of his contract. I think we are going to see his best hockey of the year, in the playoffs.

Laraque (1.5):
Um.....he didn't exceed the amount of money we payed Jay Leach this year. Nice to know he is going to screw us on the cap for a couple more year. Grrrrrr!!!!

Metropolit (1):
Easily exceeded. Not sure if that was a one year thing or not, but when a guy leads your team in PP goals and you only have to pay him $1.0M, he has to be considered a bargain.

Lapierre (.66):
Considering how much he overachieved last year, I don't know if he could of done anything buy disappoint this year. I am going to still say he exceeded his cap hit, only because his cap hit was so low.

S. Kostitsyn (.592):
Disappointing season overall, but like Laps, have to say he at least achieving his contract value. Should be interesting to revist this one a year from now...if SK is still a hab.

Pouliot (.583):
Easily exceeded his value, but the late season slump, might of hurt his next contract somewhat. Like what I see of him, and expect him to be a cap bargain for at least a couple more years.

Pyatt (.427):
Overachived, without a doubt, although dunno how much more you will ever get from this guy. Will never be a disappointment at 427,00, but can't see him demanding much more going forward. Only Geroge Laraque could underexceed at this price.

Moore (.342):
Exceeded quite easily. Doesn't look like a $2M-$3M a year player he was hoping he was a year ago, but is quite valuable at $1M-$1.75M

Darche (.258):
Easily exceeded. Heck George Laraque could of...well maybe not. If we could keep this guy for another year in the same situation, at the same price, I would be happy. Should find a home next year on a team with very little depth, methinks.

Markov (5.75):
Has yet to have a year where he didn't exceed his contract.

Hamrlik (5.5):
Good year, but not $5.5M good. If we were paying him similiar to Spacek, he would look like a bargain, but not at $5.5M. Can't see him achieving it next year either, so he could be one guy, for cap reasons alone, might be moved this offseason.

Spacek (3.8):
Would of been interesting to see if he would of had a better year if he spent the year at LD instead of RD. Disappointed that he didn't give us a little more in the way of PP offence, but not really disappointed overall at $3.8M. I'm going to go against the grain and say he met his cap hit.

Gill (2.25):
Didn't exceed, didn't disappoint. I'll say he matched. By all accounts he is a great team guy, and one of the best PK dman the habs have had for along time. His weaknesses were well documented coming into the year, so it wasn't like we thought we were getting the next Bobby Orr, so...

Mara (1.675):
Before the year started this was one guy I thought would totally exceed his cap number, but after everything was said and done, I will have to say no. Good effort when he played, but seemed overmatched when given top four minutes.

Gorges (1.1):
Exceeded easily. Heck he exceed the contract value of most of our defenceman, not named Markov or Hamrlik.

O'Byrne (.942):
Exceeded easily as well. Don't know if he will every be a no doubt top four dman, but right now he is very cap friendly.

Bergeron (.732):
Uh.....helped the power play. That might alone be worth his contract. I'll say he matched. Ain't worht much more mind you.

Price (2.2):
Exceeded. Don't care what anybody thinks. Call up the other 29 GM's and ask them if they would of paid Price the same for the year hew had, and 90% of them would gladly. Price not of maybe had the year alot of people wanted, but when you look at the dollar values of the goalies out there, he is a bargain. Unfortunately for him, he isn't the best goaltending value on his own tean, even though he might be one of the top 5-7 bargains (goalies) league wide.

Halak (.775):
Exceeded more than any other on the team. Would of been a bargain at 3X the price.

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Old
04-11-2010, 01:42 PM
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is a good Radiohead song.

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04-11-2010, 01:49 PM
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is a good Radiohead song.
I love oxymorons.

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04-11-2010, 01:53 PM
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I pretty much agree with everything you said Darz, though I feel like Mara wasn't really given a chance.

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04-11-2010, 01:58 PM
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Man Metropolit is sooooo underated.

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Old
04-11-2010, 02:34 PM
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Crimson Skorpion
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Very interesting post, HS. I'll participate in it as well.

Here's my two cents:

Gomez (7.35): It's very hard to grade his work by his contract, because at over $7 million you would expect a superstar-like player which Gomez is not. However, if you look at his play you can't feel too bad. When he started this season, I thought right away that he was the play maker to replace Koivu. Placing Gionta on one of his wings was by far one of the best decisions made this year and when the Habs traded Latendresse for Pouliot and placed him on Gomez's other line, it completed it. Next year, we may see Gomez exceed this year's numbers.

Cammalleri (6): Easily a much better update on Kovalev. No shot at Kovalev, but Cammy brought it every game before his injury and showed all of us that he knows how to find the back of the net. Off the ice, we don't have a more humble guy then him and he just has so much respect for the city and the fans that it's hard not to like him. Coming back from injury, he didn't look too much like a $6 million dollar player, but I sort of expected that. If he plays like the way he did in the first half of the season for the remainder of his contract, it's very well earned.

Gionta (5): Doesn't stop working, led the team in goals this season despite missing a number of games and he is a proven leader on the team. No doubt about it, he's earned every last penny of his contract and it's nice to know we have him for a few more years as well.

A. Kostitsyn (3.25): Very, very streaky. When he's on, he really can score but he needs his line to fully be there. We saw him disappear of the face of the planet when Cammy was gone and the line-juggling began. But when Cammy came back, we saw him have a multiple goal night. No doubt about it, he can score but he needs to be a hell of a lot more consistent if he wants to earn that kind of money. This year, I'd have to say he was overpaid by a million or so.

Moen (1.5): We got our value for sure, but more-so in the first half of the season when he was offering some scoring as well, which really wasn't expected. He can finish his checks, decent defensively and he is pretty intelligent on the ice, but I'm still quite bitter over the fact that we could have signed someone like Kostopoulos for a half million less and gotten the same work ethic, only all season long.

Laraque (1.5): Complete waste. Was VERY excited when they signed him but his whole "code" crap that he lives by makes me not want to see him in the NHL ever again. If your an enforcer and you're paid to defend your team, yet you have a code that prevents you from doing you're job, get out and stay out.

Metropolit (1): Easily exceeded. Sort of a fluke, with all the injuries happening that he got the PP time to show he could offer quite a bit of scoring. He played very good this year and if he can keep that up for another season or two, one million dollars is well earned for Metro.

Lapierre (.66): Comparing him to last season, not a chance. Hard to complain since he's making so little, but man did this guy disappear. Very disappointed with his work ethic and his attitude, so hopefully he'll get some sense knocked into him.

S. Kostitsyn (.592): Held back way too much to know what he could have offered over the course of the entire regular season. Yes, he had a bad attitude at the start, but does the team not light up when he's sitting on the bench? It is such a waste to sit him in the press box. Just under .600 is very well worth the money for such a young and talented player with the potential to get better.

Pouliot (.583): Slumped the end of the year, but a much better upgrade on Lats to the team and he's offered more then Lats did during his stay. A great trade that landed both teams some quality scoring and Pouliot exceeded my expectations as well as his contract.

Pyatt (.427): A third-line player probably for his whole career but at under half a million he's a steal. He'll earn more once that contract is up but damn can the kid play. Definitely a dark horse in the Gomez trade, I think we're going to find that out over the year's to come.

Moore (.342): Interesting to know if we re-sign him next season and better yet, how much? For sure he's worth more then his cap hit this year to the team but if we don't re-sign him next season then that 2nd pick will be Florida's gain. He's not a $2-3 million dollar player but if we can sign him for $1.5-1.8 I'd be happy quite frankly.

Darche (.258): Very happy to see him get his chance. At first, he played well and surprised everyone but as the season carried along, his production as well as his play dropped steadily. For sure it was nice to see, but with young players on the rise it's hard to imagine him being in our line-up next year.

Markov (5.75): Can't argue that. At all. $5.75 is an understatement to the true value he is to the team.

Hamrlik (5.5): Good, but not $5.5 good. He surprised me with some solid defensive work this year, but he's rather aged and his play doesn't warrant anything close to $5 million. It'll be interesting to see if the Habs keep him in the roster or dump his salary on another team.

Spacek (3.8): Was expected to contribute to the PP, put on the wrong side and therefore what can you expect? He looked good defensively with Hamrlik despite some hiccups here and there. But giving him close to $4 million, you'd expect his numbers to be slightly better and they weren't. He'll have to show more offensive upside to earn that cap hit.

Gill (2.25): Big, aggresive in front of the net and a great penalty killer. Sadly, it ends there. Let's face it, he's rather slow, has a hard time keeping up with the play in the corners and he has little to no offensive upside. $2.25 for a solid penalty killer is a bit too much, especially when you look at someone like Gorges, who offers that and a whole lot more yet makes a whole lot less. $1.5 is much more decent of a cap hit for Gill, but then again I doubt some people would even still want him on the team.

Mara (1.675): I feel bad for him. I expected him to contribute more of a leader-type presence to the defense, but his play was nowhere near that and he's suffered some injuries over the course of the season. $1.675 million is hard to complain about, but I'd like him to play more during the season to earn that contract.

Gorges (1.1): We got him and a 1st for Rivet? Really? $1.1 is highway robbery and I hope we can continue to see him in a Habs jersey once his contract runs up. It'll be interesting to see how much he makes.

O'Byrne (.942): Had a disastrous season last year (then again, a lot of other people did too). But his play picked up this year and he's worth is steadily reason. For sure he earned this contract but I'd still like to see him a bit more aggressive along the boards and in the corners. Other then that, he earned his cap hit.

Bergeron (.732): Purely for his blast from the point. 3/4 of a million to score some goals, I won't complain. He earned it for that alone but if he asks for anything more, you point him to the door and thank him for his contributions to the team.

Price (2.2): He will be worth this in the future, but for this season... Ouch. He sat on the bench for a good chunk of the year and when he did play, he was good but still didn't win many games. I understand it wasn't his fault and I do feel sorry for him, but when the other guy making less then half his salary is out-performing him, you sort of don't like the $2.2 million he's making. Hopefully he's given a chance to earn his spot back but at this point, who knows?

Halak (.775): Completely exceeded his worth by a lot. His agent must be rolling over with laughter, dollar signs in his eyes and all. Halak was one of the only reasons the Habs are in the playoffs, so at under a million, he's worth every last penny.

Plekanec (2.75): Exceeded, simply put. He'll earn probably the double of that cap hit and it will be hard to keep him. I don't know if the Habs will have the money to keep him, but maybe with a contract dump or two, it could be possible but then again, who wants to pick up salary at any point of the season? Loved his work ethic, his style of play and I hope he can do this in the playoffs and not play like a little girl.

I really enjoyed this. Great thread!

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Old
04-12-2010, 07:37 AM
  #10
Hank Scorpio
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I appreciate the thoughts everybody. Sorry Mac, there's a 14hr time difference between EST in Canada and EST in Australia, your morning is my night and your night is tomorrow for me.

Can't believe I forgot Plekanec but he sort of goes without saying, you'd have a difficult time he played to the value of his salary.

Interesting thoughts on Mara, I thought he was one of the better signings this off season and was sure he spelled another year in the AHL for O'byrne but fate works in mysterious ways.

Darz, interesting thoughts on Darche and I'm inclined to agree. I could definitely see him in a more regular role with and offensively challenged team next year of which there seem to be no shortage. I can see him being replaced on our team by a regular who play's with a little more of a physical edge next season.

CS I also agree with you on Moore, it will be interesting to see how much he asks for. Should it be too much, think we'll see another year of Metro?

I'm still not totally convinced with Bergeron. Him and Gill on the same team give us two regular roster players who are far too one dimensional and that is why I don't think we can afford him. If we can drop Hamrlik, Spacek or even Gill I think he will be replaced by either a true utility player with a shot or a defensman with a few more dimensions to his game.

I've been thinking about the Rivet for Gorges and a 1st trade (Pacioretty) since I wrote this yesterday and I know this doesn't belong here but I'm very tempted to say it was the best trade I've been alive to see the Habs make (born in '85). I really hope they work to resign this guy long term during the off season, I know he's an RFA at the end of next season but I think if anything it would be a big compliment to him and paying a player his necessary dues. I agree with you Darz, I'm not totally on board with the Gionta for captain train, though I wouldn't be disappointed if he was. I am, however, on the Gorges for Captain train.

Once again, thanks to all who took the time to check the post out. Can't wait until Thursday (Friday morning for me!)!

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